Baldur's Gate Is Viconia evil? and other Drow discussions

[Sykar]

If you start a relationship with her and go all the way to ToB she does soften up a little and you can turn her TN iirc.

Which should only happen in the case of a non-evil CHARNAME

Kinda true, but you cannot push all responsibility behind implemented mechanics imho. The game is a role playing game, so if you play an evil protagonist but act neutral, well that kinda is your fault, though I can see how some might rationalize their character acting nicer towards Viconia or women in general I guess. I am not even sure if the change from NE to TN has any significant mechanical impact.

 

[hell bovine]

But that could also be a lie, as Jaheira points out. On the other hand she and Jaheira are always at odds, so who knows. If you romance Viconia at some point she even admits that she has bedded all kinds of filthy merchants in order to take advantage of them and that she has even murdered some of them in the end. But she could be exaggerating because she is also trying to break the romance. Viconia is very ambiguous, that's why I like her a lot.

That, and also because she's the best cleric in the game. Dat magic resistance is pretty sexy too.

It's not just Jaheira. Jan has this funny convo with Viconia, where he basically pretends to tell a sob story for pity. And his tales tend to be pretty accurate assessments of others' personalities.

Imo the bigger problem with her alignment is how undead turning works. She's a single-classed cleric with no kit who can't even chunk undead; magic resistance doesn't really make up for that.

 

[Sykar]

But that could also be a lie, as Jaheira points out. On the other hand she and Jaheira are always at odds, so who knows. If you romance Viconia at some point she even admits that she has bedded all kinds of filthy merchants in order to take advantage of them and that she has even murdered some of them in the end. But she could be exaggerating because she is also trying to break the romance. Viconia is very ambiguous, that's why I like her a lot.

That, and also because she's the best cleric in the game. Dat magic resistance is pretty sexy too.

It's not just Jaheira. Jan has this funny convo with Viconia, where he basically pretends to tell a sob story for pity. And his tales tend to be pretty accurate assessments of others' personalities.

Imo the bigger problem with her alignment is how undead turning works. She's a single-classed cleric with no kit who can't even chunk undead; magic resistance doesn't really make up for that.

It is always nice to have your personal undead army around without wasting spell slots. She can easily get 100% MR and the Shield of reflection, making her effectively immune to almost all ranged damage and all enemy magics. Her 19 Dex makes her really accurate with slings, and with a bit of gear she can wear armor good enough to reach negative AC. Among clerics she is the one with the most spells by far with a straight level progression. Both Aerie and Anomen are held back by multi/dual classing. Anomen also has a mediocre wisdom score at the beginning. Aerie is a late bloomer and does not really come into her own until late SoA when she has a ridiculous amount of spells and can use Spell Triggers/Contingencies with clerical spells.

 

[Storyfag]

Imo the bigger problem with her alignment is how undead turning works. She's a single-classed cleric with no kit who can't even chunk undead; magic resistance doesn't really make up for that.

How is having half the Twisted Rune kill the other half for you a problem?

 

[hell bovine]

Imo the bigger problem with her alignment is how undead turning works. She's a single-classed cleric with no kit who can't even chunk undead; magic resistance doesn't really make up for that.

How is having half the Twisted Rune kill the other half for you a problem?

Because this would take time, and with SCS installed I'd rather the beholder & mage with the staff don't get any free time to act in that fight.

 

[ga♥]

For most of SoA Viconia is better. For ToB+Ascension Anomen (with the good outcome of his personal quest) is better.

End.

 

[Sykar]

For most of SoA Viconia is better. For ToB+Ascension Anomen (with the good outcome of his personal quest) is better.

End.

Not really. Even if he gets his wisdom upgrade Viconia still has more spells at her disposal. Anomen cannot tank for shit unless he gets the Gauntlets of Dexterity if which you find 1. His extra attack, slightly better THAC0 and some more HP makes him a better frontline, but if you already have melee monsters like Haer'Dalis or Korgan in the party it becomes pretty moot. I guess chunking undead is nice convenience but having easy free army of undead has its perks, too. Nevermind that by dual classing rules Anomen should have never existed in the first place since a fighter cannot dual class with a mere 10 wisdom into cleric.
As a pure caster Viconia is better. Add the 100% achievable magic resistance and she is guaranteed to always be able to cure crippling CC like Chaos from your party or save someone with a quick Sanctuary.

 

[ga♥]

"Haer'Dalis" melee monster lol.

I was not talking about the unmodded game. In umodded any of the two is enough.

 

[Luckmann]

You don't get to not be racist in an universe that explicitly is.

The real world?

 

[Sykar]

"Haer'Dalis" melee monster lol.

I was not talking about the unmodded game. In umodded any of the two is enough.

I have not played an unmodded BG 2 for like 15 years. And yes, Haer'Dalis is a melee monster who will easily outdamage Anomen, he just needs proper micro management and good use of his special abilities.

 

[Reinhardt]

Aerie best waifu AND cleric.

 

[hell bovine]

Not really. Even if he gets his wisdom upgrade Viconia still has more spells at her disposal. Anomen cannot tank for shit unless he gets the Gauntlets of Dexterity if which you find 1. His extra attack, slightly better THAC0 and some more HP makes him a better frontline, but if you already have melee monsters like Haer'Dalis or Korgan in the party it becomes pretty moot. I guess chunking undead is nice convenience but having easy free army of undead has its perks, too. Nevermind that by dual classing rules Anomen should have never existed in the first place since a fighter cannot dual class with a mere 10 wisdom into cleric.
As a pure caster Viconia is better. Add the 100% achievable magic resistance and she is guaranteed to always be able to cure crippling CC like Chaos from your party or save someone with a quick Sanctuary.

Viconia isn't that great at tanking either, because AC isn't the best method for tanking in BG2; mage spells are. You don't need to be a high level mage for that, I've had Quayle tank wolfweres in BG1. 100% mr you can reach from either cloak of sewers or polymorph self, but the reverse isn't true for those arcane buffs. Which is why for tanking I'd take Aerie over Viconia any time. Anomen's extra attacks mean getting more out of the hp/duhm/rm combination; ironically, in the long run this makes him a better slinger than Viconia, though you'll get more out of dual-wielding. Btw, he can actually join the party at a higher level than Viconia depending on when you get him, from what I remember.

 

[ga♥]

As the most authoritative author on RPG Renaissance™ Lilura decreed on her blog© , nothing is better than more attacks per round, therefore Anomen wins.

Also nobody cares about Dexterity (and therefore AC) once you reach ToB.

 

[abnaxus]

She berates you if you don't fukk Phaere xDD

 

[Sykar]

Not really. Even if he gets his wisdom upgrade Viconia still has more spells at her disposal. Anomen cannot tank for shit unless he gets the Gauntlets of Dexterity if which you find 1. His extra attack, slightly better THAC0 and some more HP makes him a better frontline, but if you already have melee monsters like Haer'Dalis or Korgan in the party it becomes pretty moot. I guess chunking undead is nice convenience but having easy free army of undead has its perks, too. Nevermind that by dual classing rules Anomen should have never existed in the first place since a fighter cannot dual class with a mere 10 wisdom into cleric.
As a pure caster Viconia is better. Add the 100% achievable magic resistance and she is guaranteed to always be able to cure crippling CC like Chaos from your party or save someone with a quick Sanctuary.

Viconia isn't that great at tanking either, because AC isn't the best method for tanking in BG2; mage spells are. You don't need to be a high level mage for that, I've had Quayle tank wolfweres in BG1. 100% mr you can reach from either cloak of sewers or polymorph self, but the reverse isn't true for those arcane buffs. Which is why for tanking I'd take Aerie over Viconia any time. Anomen's extra attacks mean getting more out of the hp/duhm/rm combination; ironically, in the long run this makes him a better slinger than Viconia, though you'll get more out of dual-wielding. Btw, he can actually join the party at a higher level than Viconia depending on when you get him, from what I remember.

She cannot tank melee late on SoA or against the heavy hitters and I never tried to suggest otherwise. That being said, against ranged and magic she can be basically made immune against thanks to her MR and Shield of Reflection. Cloak and Polymorph prevent you from using your spells, only in rare circumstances is that a good idea. As for tanking melee, Jaheira with shield and Iron Skin> everybody else.
So what if Anomen can get more out of Duhm and Rm? His damage still pales compared to Korgan, Jaheira, Sarevok (ToB), Mins, Jan abusing Invis or Haer'Dalis using Imp. Haste and Spin. I take Anomen if I want a good or neutral cleric for chunking and/or when I need some more melee damage. Otherwise I prefer Viconia.

 

[ga♥]

"Anomen is better than Viconia late game due to him being dual class fighter"
"What about Sarevok?" t. Sykar

Are you retarded or what?

 

[Sykar]

"Anomen is better than Viconia late game due to him being dual class fighter"
"What about Sarevok?" t. Sykar

Are you retarded or what?

Right, that is exactly what I said.

 

[ga♥]

So whats the point again? That him being a better fighter than Viconia doesn't matter since they are both anyway subpar compared to "Sarevok"?

Dude, SCS+Ascension and you will learn to squeeze anything you can.

 

[hell bovine]

She cannot tank melee late on SoA or against the heavy hitters and I never tried to suggest otherwise. That being said, against ranged and magic she can be basically made immune against thanks to her MR and Shield of Reflection. Cloak and Polymorph prevent you from using your spells, only in rare circumstances is that a good idea. As for tanking melee, Jaheira with shield and Iron Skin> everybody else.
So what if Anomen can get more out of Duhm and Rm? His damage still pales compared to Korgan, Jaheira, Sarevok (ToB), Mins, Jan abusing Invis or Haer'Dalis using Imp. Haste and Spin. I take Anomen if I want a good or neutral cleric for chunking and/or when I need some more melee damage. Otherwise I prefer Viconia.

The only ranged attacks I've used the shield against were the fallen sollars & Illasera from Ascension. Ranged attackers aren't that dangerous in BG2. As for magic resistance, you need items to hit 100% on Viconia (and imprisonment ignores mr anyway), whereas you can buy Aerie the polymorph spell straight out of the circus. I use it fairly often in BG1 & BG2 early levels; 'can't use spells' isn't much of a problem when you can still use items. And sure, Jaheira can tank melee, which makes her better than Viconia too. Which is the point: Anomen getting more out of hp/duhm/rm is that he fights better than Viconia. Just like Aerie tanks better than Viconia. And if you want to compare clerics to fighters, so does Korgan; shorty saves, rage immunities, dress him in the nice cloak & belt and he won't need mr to tank spellcasters. While being a much better fighter than Viconia.

 

[Lacrymas]

Who cares who is mechanically better, you take Viconia for the aesthetic.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Who cares who is mechanically better, you take Viconia for the aesthetic.

Exactly, but Codexers seem to be all about min/maxing to make the game as easy as possible. Decline embodied.

 

[Sykar]

Who cares who is mechanically better, you take Viconia for the aesthetic.

Viconia is better as a better cleric even if Anomen passes the test, period. On top of that she can be made immune to magic, which is a huge survival boost.

Who cares who is mechanically better, you take Viconia for the aesthetic.

Exactly, but Codexers seem to be all about min/maxing to make the game as easy as possible. Decline embodied.

People can make rationalizations all they want, but the fact is that the only advantage Anomen has is more melee damage due to an extra attack, which is subpar compared to actual melee companions. If you have a party full of arcane casters I guess he can be a poor man's Korgan/Keldorn/Minsc/etc. but that's about it.

She cannot tank melee late on SoA or against the heavy hitters and I never tried to suggest otherwise. That being said, against ranged and magic she can be basically made immune against thanks to her MR and Shield of Reflection. Cloak and Polymorph prevent you from using your spells, only in rare circumstances is that a good idea. As for tanking melee, Jaheira with shield and Iron Skin> everybody else.
So what if Anomen can get more out of Duhm and Rm? His damage still pales compared to Korgan, Jaheira, Sarevok (ToB), Mins, Jan abusing Invis or Haer'Dalis using Imp. Haste and Spin. I take Anomen if I want a good or neutral cleric for chunking and/or when I need some more melee damage. Otherwise I prefer Viconia.

The only ranged attacks I've used the shield against were the fallen sollars & Illasera from Ascension. Ranged attackers aren't that dangerous in BG2. As for magic resistance, you need items to hit 100% on Viconia (and imprisonment ignores mr anyway), whereas you can buy Aerie the polymorph spell straight out of the circus. I use it fairly often in BG1 & BG2 early levels; 'can't use spells' isn't much of a problem when you can still use items. And sure, Jaheira can tank melee, which makes her better than Viconia too. Which is the point: Anomen getting more out of hp/duhm/rm is that he fights better than Viconia. Just like Aerie tanks better than Viconia. And if you want to compare clerics to fighters, so does Korgan; shorty saves, rage immunities, dress him in the nice cloak & belt and he won't need mr to tank spellcasters. While being a much better fighter than Viconia.

Seriously? Imprisonment? A spell level 9 melee range spell which even in ToB is rare gives you so much trouble that you consider 100% mr not desirable?
Ranged attackers are dangerous enough. Yeah she needs items for 100% resistance and Anomen needs items so he can do shit too so not an argument whatsoever. Again using polymorph disables your spell casting so it is a purely defensive spell which gives you a shitty basic attack and magic immunity. The amount of times I want to do that I can count on one hand. Iirc it sets your attacks to 1, so Anomen using the Cloak would completely undermine what little advantage he already has.
Yeah Anomen is the better frontliner. I actually mentioned that in my first post, did you read it? The argument is that if you already have one or more melee specialist his extra attack even buffed won't be very noticable most of the time. He is still a worse caster, worse turn Undead, cannot ignore enemy magic ever regardless of items not to mention that he is one of if not the most insufferable companion in the BG series.
You can spin it all you like, but Viconia is the better cleric, especially before Anomen passes the tests, or when he fails it, but even if he passes she still has a couple of spells more.

Never mind the fact that Anomen completely breaks AD&D dual classing rules by having a low wisdom to start with. Iirc even his wisdom score after he passes the test is still insufficient for dual classing from fighter to cleric.

 

[hell bovine]

Sykar
What do I care that Anomen is illegal? That's irrelevant to the question of power. Imprisonment (demiliches get a ranged version) is not the only spell to ignore mr, dispel is another. Which is why if I want a tanking cleric, I'll choose Aerie. With SCS enemies are better at choosing & switching targets for both melee and spells, and her defenses are more varied. If I want a fighting cleric, I'll choose Anomen, because he gets more attacks when dual wielding under ih & with less penalties.

As for ranged attacks, plenty of npcs can wield the reflection shield. I consider giving it to Viconia a waste, because she doesn't have the melee power to take down e.g. a fallen solar quickly. It'd have to be bait & switch, which is too much micromanaging for me (and can be executed by any npc wielding the shield).

And that's the problem with Viconia. You can stack items on her for 100 mr, but her offense will still be lacking. If you give her items such as the shield, that means those items are not being utilized by someone who is better offensively or defensively. Her being able to cast a few more spells doesn't make up for that.

edit: And as for turning, that's level dependent. If you get them early, Anomen joins as a higher level cleric than Viconia. Including earlier access to higher level spells. And it will be some time before she takes over in terms of levels.

 

[Sykar]

Sykar
What do I care that Anomen is illegal? That's irrelevant to the question of power. Imprisonment (demiliches get a ranged version) is not the only spell to ignore mr, dispel is another. Which is why if I want a tanking cleric, I'll choose Aerie. With SCS enemies are better at choosing & switching targets for both melee and spells, and her defenses are more varied. If I want a fighting cleric, I'll choose Anomen, because he gets more attacks when dual wielding under ih & with less penalties.

As for ranged attacks, plenty of npcs can wield the reflection shield. I consider giving it to Viconia a waste, because she doesn't have the melee power to take down e.g. a fallen solar quickly. It'd have to be bait & switch, which is too much micromanaging for me (and can be executed by any npc wielding the shield).

And that's the problem with Viconia. You can stack items on her for 100 mr, but her offense will still be lacking. If you give her items such as the shield, that means those items are not being utilized by someone who is better offensively or defensively. Her being able to cast a few more spells doesn't make up for that.

edit: And as for turning, that's level dependent. If you get them early, Anomen joins as a higher level cleric than Viconia. Including earlier access to higher level spells. And it will be some time before she takes over in terms of levels.

Demi-Liches are exceedingly rare, in fact I remember only Kangaxx and the one in WK. Strictly speaking they use a souped up version of Trap the Soul if you were refering to that. That is still not even remotely a reason to dismiss magic resistance when spells which ignore them which are actually dangerous are exceedingly rare and usually very high level but there is plenty of lower level magic which is quite dangerous.
Aerie is not a tanking cleric. She is a tanking cleric/wizard, an important distinction because she can tank only because of the mage part, and thanks to her multiclass nature she takes quite a while to get to a point where you can reliably use her as a tank because MI alone is not sufficient. Let's not forget that she has 30% scribe scroll failure which is somewhat of a problem for non-save scummers like me.
Anomen is just as bad as Viconia at tanking, worse if he does not get the Gauntlets of Dexterity because his dexterity is god awful and a few extra hitpoints do not make up for 4 AC. Yeah, Anomen is the better melee fighter, well done, we went over this for like 4 times by now and I never said otherwise, is there a reason you continue to bring up something no one ever contented? Maybe you can start and address my actual point that when you already have enough melee damage Anomen's extra attack won't be very noticable and thanks to no stone skin or MI he is highly vulnerable, even more so with switching opponents in SCS. As to damage output, you can easily opt to have a more offensive setup in spells of which Viconia has more slots especially once you get +1 wisdom Ioun Stone. Level difference if taken early is only really relevant early game and becomes utterly irrelevant during mid act 2 if you go for a completionist or increased gold for Linvail modification, I usually go for 50k.
As to Anomen being an illegal fighter/cleric, you might not care when Bioware breaks major rules/mechanics which are in fact implemented in the game I do though. I can live with house rules but this is not even house rule anymore. It is just making shit up as you go.

 

[hell bovine]

Sykar
Dispel is a common spell. And I'm not dismissing magic resistance, but how soon into BG2 can you get permanent (undispellable) 100% mr on Viconia? Aerie's spell defenses work from the get go.
Btw, I've never said I use Anomen for tanking. I use him for fighting. Which part of this is difficult to get: if I want a tanking cleric, I get Aerie (mirror image isn't the only low level arcane spell that counts, which is how I could get Quayle to tank wolfweres in BG1), if I want a fighting cleric, I get Anomen. Scroll scribing is not a problem with intelligence granting potions.

And if you care so much about legality, why don't you complain about Viconia not getting any sunlight penalties as a drow? Aren't they supposed to lose mr if they remain on the surface too long?