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1eyedking Isometric gameplay can't hold a candle to first person real-time

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by CyberP, Jun 13, 2014.

  1. Damned Registrations Prestigious Gentleman Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

    Damned Registrations
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    I've made the exact opposite argument multiple times on these forums, and mine is much stronger. Free camera control and movement both require so much extra development to account for their interactions (which are mostly trivial, looking at a table from both sides isn't terribly more immersive than 1) that it requires the sacrifice of development elsewhere.

    To compare something on relatively equal footing, lets take a pair of games developed for a long time by total aspies obsessed with details.

    For 3d we have Wolf359. The combat is fantastically detailed, with excellent AI, detailed movement, locational damage, physics and many kinds of attacks. However, the game has nothing else. It's just combat.

    For for 0d we have Dwarf Fortress. The combat is also fantastically detailed, with pretty much everything lugaru has and more. Locational damage is so detailed it includes things like skin, muscle, bone and nerve damage separately. Anything can be used as a weapon, and there are pretty much a limitless variety of both weapons and enemies. Instead of just humanoids you can also fight all manner of animals, weird abomination creatures with strange amounts/types of limbs, and creatures with odd properties like undead that don't need nerves. On top of all that, the game has more than just combat. The creatures have mental status as well, which affects how they fight or flee but also how they work, go to parties, make friends, get married, or have a total breakdown and throw their baby into a bottomless chasm. There is an entire massive procedurally generated world with details like a full history of wars and religions and cultures being wiped out. There is a detailed crafting system that goes all the way from an unmined cliff face to building your own tower made of glass filled with golden statues, engraved floors made of obsidian and an armory of weapons, the quality of which is determined by the skills of their craftsman.

    There is nothing that even comes remotely close to dwarf fortress right now. The best bet would probably be Cataclysm DDA, which is maybe half as complex. And by the time we have a first person game that detailed, we'll have a turn based top down style game that includes a simulation of actual physics and chemistry so detailed that you can build your own IEDs out of random parts, and anatomy detailed enough to be used for study by medical students.

    Comparing something like Fallout 3's gameplay to that of Cataclysm DDA is like comparing tic-tac-toe to Civilization 3. I can go into the woods naked in the latter and come out with a full suit of clothing, weapons, tools, baggage and probably even a primitive vehicle (I've never tried to get mechanics up and build a wooden cart but it's probably in there, and if not could be modded in within 10 minutes.) In fallout 3 I can't even cut up clothing into rags to bandage a wound. A wound which is just some vague loss of hp, as opposed to an actual crippled limb causing weakness, risking infection, and causing pain and depression.

    Fallout 3 is closer in level of realistic detail to Duke Nukem (the sidescrolling one) than it is to Cataclysm DDA.
     
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  2. CyberP Unwanted

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    I appreciate the attempt, but that's just "here's highly interactive iso game a & b, here's moderately interactive FP game x & y".

    I think the best counter argument would be that iso need not be as graphically detailed as FP, therefore a development team can focus on adding complex systems without being held back by the costs of the accompanying details.
    However, i's still just "click on this/execute command".
     
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  3. groke Arcane Patron

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    Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera BattleTech
    It will be the first-person perspective of me sitting on my ass looking at my troops on the fucking monitor.
     
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  4. CyberP Unwanted

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    It most likely will for the most part, but there's always the occasional dev team that comes along...
     
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  5. Damned Registrations Prestigious Gentleman Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

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    Executing a command to tear a shirt into rags is no less immersive than executing a command to jump. The difference is, one game has hundreds of commands, the other has like, 10.
     
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  6. CyberP Unwanted

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    Forget immersion, that argument is over.

    "The difference is, one game has hundreds of commands, the other has like, 10."

    This is far from the truth.
     
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  7. toro Arcane

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  8. Damned Registrations Prestigious Gentleman Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

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    How is that far from the truth? What commands do you have in F3? Attack, move, exchange objects with container, equip, turn on VATS, talk, stealth toggle, repair/salvage items, use consumable. Oh, and pick locks/hack computers. That's 10. You could probably come up with a few more, but I really could come up with hundreds in Cataclysm DDA. Just related to butchering an animal and making clothing, you have smashing the corpse, butchering it, carving bone into a needle, combining needle and sinew to make a sewing kit, combining thread into longer strings to use as materials, actually crafting a piece of clothing (of which there are dozens just made from leather), resizing that clothing to fit you, repairing that clothing, reinforcing that clothing, disassembling that clothing into raw materials, or crudely cutting it up into rags. That's 11 pretty much all related to fucking SEWING. And sewing using animal parts at that.
     
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  9. Infinitron I post news Patron

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    Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    ? Isn't that a Star Trek thing?
     
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  10. Damned Registrations Prestigious Gentleman Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

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    Yep. Meant to say Overgrowth. My brain crossed them due to the developer name (Wolfire) and the videos always refering to it as "Overgrowth alpha NUMBERNUMBERNUMBER". The only thing I really remembered about the names was Wolf and NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER.
     
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  11. Surf Solar cannot into womynz

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    This is by far the mlst retarded thread I have read in a while on here, OP is a colossal faggot.

    I was half expecting to see DraQ posting here, too
     
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  12. tindrli Arcane

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    i agree with a statement above
     
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  13. Osvir Learned

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPA9QZ11csc
     
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  14. Drew Learned

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    Apples are better than bananas because they don't have peels.
     
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  15. Excidium P. banal

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    All I know is that any perspective is better than whatever late Ultima games/Tibia/KOTC/etc use
     
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  16. Jvegi Arcane

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    So is this guy a troll or not? The first 2 pages would indicate so, but his level of commitment is truly impressive if that's the case.

    Anyway, immershun. Books can be extremely immersive. I don't think any game or movie has ever transported me into it's world as much as some of the books I've read. Yeah, books are linear, but let's not kid ourself, so are almost all games, even those that are considered not to be. The interaction comes from the creative process of analyzing, interpreting the world and the unfolding events. Having everything spelled out to you takes you out of the process, makes you stale, dumb.

    It's like watching a simplistic tv show. It's a completely passive experience, unbearable for anyone who is familiar with the joys of actually having to put some effort into interacting with the message received. And since video games are rarely written at a level that requires any effort, having the world presented to you in a totally literal manner leaves you with nothing. It's empty, it's boring, it's shit. It's not immersive.

    It's a very interesting subject. The answer is definitely not just FP VR, and the OP is definitely a fag.
     
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  17. FeelTheRads Arcane Patron

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    Superior in what sense?

    Is the ultimate goal of games to replicate real life?

    You don't even know what the hell you're saying. Shit's good cuz it's realistic. LOL. Limited intellect is limited intellect.
     
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  18. CyberP Unwanted

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    Half of you aren't even reading.
    You also all make such compelling arguments arguing otherwise :roll:

    I'm talking about interacting with game worlds on a deeper level. This has been made clear.
    In the case of Immersion, yes, my argument is flawed. The interactivity? No. Spot on.
     
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  19. FeelTheRads Arcane Patron

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    Your immersion argument is retarded as well.
    All you're saying is that it's more interactive because it's more immersive (as in you do it "yourself" rather than sending a command). And don't deny that's not what you're saying when you blabber about Oculus and similar shit which will fail like all other VR attempts before it.
    So, you're equating interactivity with immersiveness. Thus, you're retarded.
     
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  20. CyberP Unwanted

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    No.

    VR will change the way we interact with games, and first person perspective will be the prevelant perspective. It will no longer be an argument when occulus/VR comes into play. You'll be able to pick that shit up, fumble around with mechanisms and drop/break small objects due to poor hand-eye coordination, throw things about with varied force, brofist people, and will actually be doing it yourself, in real time, rather than "execute command/click on this" of most Iso games. In first person you can see it up close, detailed. In first person you can see the fucking ceiling, or search under a bed with detail. You can see the smallest of objects such as a hidden switch behind a vase that opens up a secret area. It allows a far deeper form of interaction than isometric or third person.
     
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  21. Jvegi Arcane

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    I may be ignorant on the subject, but how exactly is Oculus going to differ, control wise, from shit like Wii, Kinekt or surgeon simulator? Is it?

    If not, then what's the fucking difference? VR will only make it worse, because it will make the limitations so much more jarring.
     
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  22. Volourn Pretty Princess Pretty Princess

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    1st person view is shit. It's not immersive. It's not more realistic. It's garbage. Every game I've played that uses 1st person would be improved 10 fold if it cut that shit out.
     
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  23. Clockwork Knight Arcane

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    Worse than that.

     
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  24. Excidium P. banal

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    Bullshit. Lies. Also: Moran
     
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  25. Derek Larp Arbiter

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    Naw. I doubt those FPP horror games like Amnesia would work in other perspectives, the same way something like Steel Panthers wouldn't work in FPP. Jedem das Seine.
     
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