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1eyedking Isometric gameplay can't hold a candle to first person real-time

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by CyberP, Jun 13, 2014.

  1. Western Arcane

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    I feel pretty immersed when I play a game of chess, I guess the OP just can't appreciate/enjoy abstraction or be immersed in a game by having to use those faculties. He's right when he says VR is the future, we're in a bubble here in the Codex and forget the average gamer doesn't appreciate immersion that requires use of higher faculties, that's why we're a niche audience and some of our design ideas (like TB combat and isometric perspective that we see as perfectly viable and immersive) are unpopular.
     
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  2. CyberP Unwanted

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    I have not ever said isometric games, movies, books or anything of the sort cannot be immersive. :roll:
    First person perspective's use in video games realistically has greater potential to immerse the player, because we experience things in the same perspective in real life, though with some differences of course, for now.
    It can help us feel as if we are really there, more so as tech advances.

    In ~25 years, of those of us that aren't dead, most will not argue with this.
     
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  3. Abelian Somebody's Alt

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    I prefer isometric/top-down perspective because it's more tactical. Also, an added benefit is that developers don't need to waste as much time/money on making the objects/textures detailed so they look good up close.

    CyberP has explicitly said that Fallout 1-2 would look dated if it had used the 3D technology of the late 90's:
    Congratulations, Infinitron (never mind, you already have this one) on your 30,000th post.
     
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  4. Western Arcane

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    The thing is I don't find most first person games especially immersive, I only tend to play them in multi-player with RL friends (which is fun but the 3rd wall is consistently broken this way and we can be playing virtually any type of game). Some of the most immersive action RPG's I've played were 3rd person, like Gothic 2 NOTR.

    When I'm playing solo some of the games I find most immersive/engrossing are isometric RPG's, and a tactical layer of TB combat only enhances that (as long as it has challenge and interesting mechanics).

    I'm saying that people holding similar views are a minority, most people aren't immersed by having their higher faculties engaged, it's a barrier to immersion, the accessibility and instant gratification of VR is indeed the future of mainstream gaming.

    You should be happy to be correct, also welcome to the Codex.
     
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  5. chestburster Savant Illiterate

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    But why do games HAVE TO be about letting you experience things in the same perspective as in real life? Hell, walking upright and seeing with two eyes located in front of a face are even not the most evolutionarily efficient or effective.

    Just look at movies for an example: suppose some director in the 1910s convinced everyone that movies should only emulate how we experience things in the same perspective as in real life, there wouldn't be montages (because in real life, time flows in a continuous stream), there wouldn't be music accompanying the scenes, and movie cameras would be following the protagonist the whole time because in real life you can't know what other people are doing secretly.
     
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  6. CyberP Unwanted

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    I didn't say games HAVE TO do anthing either. Variety is good, and it's easy to get immersed in any enjoyable & engaging game. All I'm saying in regards to immersion in video games is FPP has greater potential to immerse most players, which is does, as long as the game itself is engaging enough also. Even greater potential if the game worlds intend to simulate real world rules, rules which we are all used to in our daily lives, as it will assist in convincing us we are really there in that game world experiencing it's events.

    In the FAR future VR will likely have the potential to be indistinguishable from reality. Forget Immersion as we know it, how about fear, not knowing which is the real world, if a developer wanted to go that far. FPP would be necessary for this.

    One-eyed King? How about Three-eyed King next time mods ;)
     
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  7. Abelian Somebody's Alt

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    ITT: Wizardry vs Fallout: which is better and why?
     
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  8. chestburster Savant Illiterate

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    Fair enough but that's kinda circular and obvious. FPP simulates real life thus it provides more immersion in that simulated real life perspective.

    But for many games that strive to allow you to experience something other than real life, FPP is painfully inadequate.
     
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  9. CyberP Unwanted

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    Not quite. You can still have fantasy worlds and game rules merged with simulated real world rules and have it be somewhat believable even now. Example: Morrowind and Arx Fatalis, two Fantasy Simulations.

    But yes, for something truly different FP is irrelevant.
     
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  10. mindx2 Codex Roaming East Coast Reporter Patron

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    Man, I hope this isn't the future of gaming or I'm going to stink at playing future games... :cry:

    Show Spoiler
    :troll:
     
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  11. CyberP Unwanted

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    Now, have I earned the Codex's respect? And forgive the hyperbolic thread title, Isometric gameplay can very much hold a candle to FP, my point is FP has greater potential in terms of deep interactivity and immersion, nothing more. That potential is just not really taken advantage of by most developers.
     
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  12. Machocruz Arcane

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    "Why should we care?" is the question. Is this "truth" supposed to make me stop enjoying character animation and dioramic views? I don't know if you've noticed, but RPGCodex is less pre-occupied with Immersion™ and virtual tourism than your general game forum, so bringing this issue here is quite amusing to me.

    And if you came here looking for ego validation for this oh so brilliant realization you have come to, then all I can say is:

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. CyberP Unwanted

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    No, I wouldn't want that. As I said, variety is good, and Isometric allows for a unique special type of gameplay.

    No, perhaps not, but interactivity is very much important to the majority of us.

    I had something else in mind, but never mind.
     
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  14. Machocruz Arcane

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    Don't take it the wrong way. It's fine that you've proposed this, and I agree with some points and not others. But what is the goal of proposing it? Just to chat about it? That's also fine, but personally goals are important. Even when people talk about human progress in general, I ask them "progress towards what goal?" But that's just me.
     
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  15. CyberP Unwanted

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    We all have our personal desires, which may or may not be meaningless in the grand scheme of things. I would think the majority of us here all share a common interest/desire though; to see less "popamole", and more raising of the bar, or at least just more "good" games in general out of the industry.
     
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  16. Machocruz Arcane

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    Well, popamole gonna popamole. I'd be fine with more honesty and less ego from the audience and the news media, and for them to stop with the flimsy rationalizations for dumbing shit down, and maybe learn some history and perspective while they're at it. Complex and simple games co-existed for years before everyone decided that every game should be for every level of player, which is contrary to every other hobby that I can think of. The reality is that it pays to make games more accessible, but that doesn't mean the audience has to cheerlead it (well, they do since the video game press is at the mercy of the publisher).
     
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  17. shihonage You see: shelter. Patron

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    CyberP Answer this question honestly: would chess play better from the King's first-person viewpoint in 3D, with Oculus VR?

    ...

    We are done.
     
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  18. Abelian Somebody's Alt

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    First person or isometric?
    :troll:
     
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  19. CyberP Unwanted

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    shihonage: That's not a very good argument. Also it has already been determined that FP is suited only to some types of video games.
    Playing chess as the king, well it may be interesting if it were dressed up in a simulated and more interactive manner than real world chess, otherwise there'd be no point in playing from the King's perspective.

    Machocruz: Well said. The only thing you missed out is passion, which appears to be lacking (or suppressed).
     
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  20. Damned Registrations Prestigious Gentleman Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

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    You know what'll be really great? Using VR tech for augmented reality so I can live real life in isometric perspective. That'll make being alive much more immersive.

    :troll:
     
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  21. CyberP Unwanted

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    Doesn't sound like a good idea. You need the detail to interact with the world on a deeper level. Example: getting laid, how are you going to find the hole? How are you going to appreciate her beauty? Good luck with general navigation also.
     
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  22. shihonage You see: shelter. Patron

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    Ok then the troll subject/OP of this thread is officially invalidated. Thanks for playing.
     
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  23. CyberP Unwanted

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    It wasn't intended to be trolling, it (the thread title) was just poor wording on my part sensationalized by the irresponsible mods when they made a thread out of it.
     
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  24. AW8 Arcane

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    Everyone, stop posting in this thread please. Thanks.
     
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  25. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much Patron

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    And what exactly would be gained by having you move your fingers accurately in a well-simulated animation-simulation through oculus rift rather than looking at a big screen and clicking the left mouse button?

    As Lyric Suite said, simple motions like picking things up are done with little effort in real life. As little effort as clicking a button in a game takes. So having to do a complex movement for it is jarring, and it becomes a tedious gimmick after a while where you wish that the game had simple button-clicking rather than taking so much effort to just pick up a coin.

    Okay, let's assume there is a good and immersive first person game, using a normal LCD screen and mouse+kb controls. It is immersive because of its atmosphere, its story, its interactivity. You can interact with almost anything (by clicking mouse buttons and pressing keyboard keys) and every interaction has a visible impact on the game world that is even recognized by NPCs. This is why the game is so fucking immersive. It would likely be your dream game, too. Oh, and it took many years and a huge budget to develop, which brings us to:

    Adding those SUPER REAL animations and actions and simulated movement, replacing every simple button click with intricate virtual finger movements, would raise the budget even higher and some of the features that make the game immersive in the first place have to be scrapped. If you need an animation for every single interaction, money has to be spent on creating these animations. Think Thief 1 and 2 with their simple "right click thingie to interact with it, interaction happens" compared to Thi4f's "every single thing is animated, from taking loot to opening a safe". As a consequence, every interaction the game has is animated and, by your definition, "more immersive", but the game actually ends up having less possible interactions because they ran out of animation budget, consequently making the game less immersive due to less interaction being possible.

    Actual content is what makes a game immersive, not the presentation as you falsely believe.
     
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