Jeff Vogel Soapbox Thread

[Siveon]

Good one.

Well, no ponies at least.

 

[Mustawd]

Was unsure which thread to post this in. I guess technically this is the general Jeff Vogel thread.

Anyway, he did an AMA today on leddit. Some tidbits from it:

I'll answer the most common question now. What are we doing next?

We're making entirely new IP. New game system, new graphics, new world, new story. I hope (no promises) to do a Kickstarter early this summer with a full announcement.

It will still be a low-budget, turn-based, icon art fantasy RPG with a rich story. If you are expecting fancy tech, shiny 3-D, or big budget, nope. We're still us. Within those bounds, it is different from anything we've done before, and I'm very excited about it.

Another FAQ ... We will remaster the Geneforge games, starting in 18 months or so. The story and gameplay will be mostly the same, but I have a lot of cool ideas for the creation system.

I will be giving the Geneforge engine a lot of tweaks to make gameplay more varied and interesting. I was never happy with how leveling up and training creations worked. I want players to feel free to change their creations around to match given situations and not be stuck with a few fixed creations the whole game.

I want you to be able to customize your creations in more satisfying and significant ways.

The base storyline and the main elements of the game that people loves will stay the same.

I do want to remaster all the Geneforges, I will never again write an all-new Geneforge game. I really said everything I want to say in that world.

Q: As somebody who wrote several scenarios for Blades of Avernum, this is kind of sad, but understandable. Do you ever plan on remastering it as you have with other Avernum games, or not?

A: We have no plans to touch anything about Blades of Avernum ever again.

I think you will find our new game system incorporates a lot of new ideas and design elements of contemporary RPGs. I've been inspired by a lot of newer titles. It sure feels fresh to me.

I don't like repeatable quests. I definitely want to move away from grinding. I'd like the next game to ideally give the full experience in 20-30 hours.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/7vyv09/im_jeff_vogel_founder_of_spiderweb_software_since/

EDIT: Can someone comment on his planned changes to Geneforge? Not sure i like the idea that's he changing so much form the system.

 

[Mustawd]

I don't like music in games. I like incidental sounds (rain, breezes, etc). It's my style. If you want music in your game, you can pick far better music for you than I can.

EDIT: That's basically the items about the new game. The only other thing I can think of is that he still hasn't decided on the engine to use. He's a C++ programmer so one that uses it and one that he can keep the source code is what he's looking for. Someone mentioned GoDot (which I think recently got C++ support IIRC), and he said he'd look into it.

The rest of the answers are kinda historical tidbit son his careers and his past games (like he wont make another historical rpg again. And Avernum 4-6 might get remastered but not for a while).

 

[Lhynn]

Have the cuck rerelease exile trilogy + blades for newer systems for fucks sake.

And he should make that new kikestarter game on exiles engine, all ones used in his later games are complete and utter shit.

 

[Mustawd]

Someone with leddit access should ask him why he went form a 6 man party in the Exile games to a 4 man party for avernum.

 

[Average Manatee]

EDIT: Can someone comment on his planned changes to Geneforge? Not sure i like the idea that's he changing so much form the system.

Well Geneforge 1 had basically no incentive to keep around creations. They scaled straight linearly up off level and levelups were 1/2 as powerful as base levels (IIRC), so every time you got a new creation level or slightly better creation equipment you'd resummon your whole lot. This was changed drastically in later Geneforges so that leveling up creations over time was stronger and less expensive in creature maintenance mana than summoning newer, highly level stuff. So it sounds like he wants to go back to more of the Geneforge 1 style. I'm OK with this since I really dislike the idea of such a huge incentive to protect creations since it's effectively just forced reloading as the enemy AI is pretty much random in what it targets, hits for 2/3rds of most creations health, and randomly stuns or paralyzes stuff so it can't escape. On the other hand I'd like some incentive not to ditch creations constantly or just throw them in a meatgrinder to kill one thing per wave in a difficult level before retreating to resummon and do it again. If a balance can be reached it will improve the game.

More significant customization, I don't know what could be added that fits. Some kind of perk system for creations? But there are already 3 separate lines of creation (magic/fire/battle), having too much customization could easily destroy the uniqueness that each line is supposed to bring.

 

[gaussgunner]

It will still be a low-budget, turn-based, icon art fantasy RPG with a rich story. If you are expecting fancy tech, shiny 3-D, or big budget, nope. We're still us. Within those bounds, it is different from anything we've done before, and I'm very excited about it.

Icon art... I don't like the sound of that. Not that there's anything wrong with mobile visual novels.

People are telling him to look at Godot.. he could do shitty 3D no problem.. but he wants to integrate his existing C++ code with it. Might be easier said than done; graphics programming has changed a lot in 20 years, and being an engine, will it expect him to do things its way. But he's not throwing everything away so that's good news.

 

[gaussgunner]

More significant customization, I don't know what could be added that fits. Some kind of perk system for creations? But there are already 3 separate lines of creation (magic/fire/battle), having too much customization could easily destroy the uniqueness that each line is supposed to bring.

Yeah... like the drama stars in Frayed Knights.. separately for each creation? So if you've got a winning creation you want to keep it going at least until it can unleash that massive attack.

 

[fantadomat]

Lets hope that the new game will be weird like geneforge. Just finished the new remake and intend to replay geneforge 2 or 3. Just have to make every item weightless. Really like the junk bag addition and how you don't get weighted down from your inventory and only form equipped items. Also increasing the money cap will be good. Anyway,the games are masterpieces in my book.

 

[ilitarist]

I asked him about older games having more stuff.

Q: What would you say to people who reminiscent about older games abundance of spells and skills etc?

A: Most of the bajillion skills in the old game were dumb. Also, I can barely manage the balancing of 62 skills. I just couldn't handle 162.


I agree though. All those skills do not add much to older games.

 

[V_K]

I'll answer the most common question now. What are we doing next?

We're making entirely new IP. New game system, new graphics, new world, new story. I hope (no promises) to do a Kickstarter early this summer with a full announcement.

It will still be a low-budget, turn-based, icon art fantasy RPG with a rich story. If you are expecting fancy tech, shiny 3-D, or big budget, nope. We're still us. Within those bounds, it is different from anything we've done before, and I'm very excited about it.

So he's making a blobber?

 

[Pope Amole II]

From the description of that, it sounds more like return to the Exile graphics - at least, I dunno what else could "icon based" mean. Which is kinda ridiculous, but what you can do, greed is a mortal sin and it shows.

 

[Terra]

I'm dubious of Vogel getting the funding he wants if he's sticking steadfastly to his "I don't like music" excuse. Not sure that'll fly with KS backers in the wider world beyond his niche. I think it's more likely that he doesn't want to pony up the cash for new tunes with each game really.

Sent from my SM-J510FN using Tapatalk

 

[fantadomat]

I'm dubious of Vogel getting the funding he wants if he's sticking steadfastly to his "I don't like music" excuse. Not sure that'll fly with KS backers in the wider world beyond his niche. I think it's more likely that he doesn't want to pony up the cash for new tunes with each game really.

Sent from my SM-J510FN using Tapatalk

What music do you play while playing his games? I go for something more folk/ethno like medievalbabes or some roman/byzantian music,german and celtic is ok to.

 

[V_K]

I'm dubious of Vogel getting the funding he wants if he's sticking steadfastly to his "I don't like music" excuse.

I always turn music off in games - it's rarely good and always distracting. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this.

 

[Mustawd]

I usually just find an RPG playlist on YouTube. Works p. well for me.

Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYVjtQaXl0A&list=PLM65bV6agLBKbJS6ip6fuUpVGPBof55XN

 

[Mustawd]

I'm dubious of Vogel getting the funding he wants if he's sticking steadfastly to his "I don't like music" excuse.

I always turn music off in games - it's rarely good and always distracting. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this.

You're not alone.

 

[supervoid]

Icon art... I don't like the sound of that.

For some reason they are calling small graphics "icons". From their note for artists (it's years old):

Note that, while we like larger graphics, we're much more interested in icons (small, say less than 70x70 pixels, of people, monsters, items, etc.).

 

[ilitarist]

I'm fine with his games having no music.

This is one of the things you either do well or do not do at all. He doesn't have any genius composer lying around and no orchestra.

I'm fine with games having atmospheric music necessary to properly *feel* those games. Many big games are partly defined by their music. Whether you like those games or not but all the Baldur's Gates, Fallouts, Arcanums, Mass Effects, Final Fantasy, Elder Scrolls and so on are unthinkable without their music. But many games have no real identity in that regard. Like Dragon Age, Witcher and many other might have as well have no music even if it's good. They're not defined by music, their atmosphere is fine even without it. Vogel's games are fine without the music.

I usually listen to whatever I'd listen to if I'd just have a walk. Metal. Still as it's fantasy I am drawn to Power Metal like Blind Guardian who made some awesome music for some crappy games.

 

[ilitarist]

For some reason they are calling small graphics "icons".

Sad! They force me to switch resolution to something like 1600x900 on my 4K screen to be able to reliably click stuff and read fonts. For fonts they have a special option, for graphics - not so much.

 

[fantadomat]

I'm fine with his games having no music.

This is one of the things you either do well or do not do at all. He doesn't have any genius composer lying around and no orchestra.

I'm fine with games having atmospheric music necessary to properly *feel* those games. Many big games are partly defined by their music. Whether you like those games or not but all the Baldur's Gates, Fallouts, Arcanums, Mass Effects, Final Fantasy, Elder Scrolls and so on are unthinkable without their music. But many games have no real identity in that regard. Like Dragon Age, Witcher and many other might have as well have no music even if it's good. They're not defined by music, their atmosphere is fine even without it. Vogel's games are fine without the music.

I usually listen to whatever I'd listen to if I'd just have a walk. Metal. Still as it's fantasy I am drawn to Power Metal like Blind Guardian who made some awesome music for some crappy games.

There are a lot of capable and cheep composers in East Europa mate,the most big names in the entertainment industry are shit. Here is a good example:

 

[ilitarist]

That track sounds good, yes, but it's not an ambient track you'd want your players to listen to for several hours during their playthrough. Cheap indie games usually get synthesised music and it doesn't sound good.

I like Paradox grand strategy games, historical ones. They have a very talented composer but I turn their music off quickly. Because most of it is very noticeably not live. Understandable but hard to listen to. They also have sci-fi games like Stellaris and there you expect music to be computer made, so it works much better. Like compare Gothic 3 (live) and Gothic 2 music, one you can listen to today and other you can't even though it's the same composer.

 

[fantadomat]

That track sounds good, yes, but it's not an ambient track you'd want your players to listen to for several hours during their playthrough. Cheap indie games usually get synthesised music and it doesn't sound good.

I like Paradox grand strategy games, historical ones. They have a very talented composer but I turn their music off quickly. Because most of it is very noticeably not live. Understandable but hard to listen to. They also have sci-fi games like Stellaris and there you expect music to be computer made, so it works much better. Like compare Gothic 3 (live) and Gothic 2 music, one you can listen to today and other you can't even though it's the same composer.

It is soundtrack and not a song . I was just pointing out that there are many capable and cheap artists. The music should be tailored to the style of the game and not just splashed on it like some kind of AAA game. For spiderweb games it will be very hard to do this,the games are around 40-80 hours of gameplay. Most music will get old fast. I doubt that i will play any spiderweb's game with actual even if it had one. I always put the sounds on quite and play some medieval music,it goes well with the theme. For EU i go for AudioMachine and a few epic hand picked songs,sometime i go for a country themed music. In HOI4 i go for Tchaikovsky or marches and songs from around WW1. Oh and Gothic does have great soundtrack,my favourite part is the desert soundtrack from Gothic 3,it really felt like you are in some middle eastern story.

 

[TigerKnee]

Time for Geneforge with dumbed down linear skill branches and less party space for creations.

 

[Kruno]

I agree with Jeff. Ambient sounds, and not music!

Don't get me wrong, some games, namely Stellaris, I love the music, but for RPGs I want to be drawn into the world, and ambient sounds are the way to do that.