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Interview Josh Sawyer Interview Roundup: On grognards, illiterates, and murdering dudes

Volourn

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. "As new player you don't fucking now this is super important and in BG or BG2 you couldn't increase stats so if you choose 14 int for a mage then you essentially fucked it up and you would need to start all over again."

The person who invented the manual is fukkin' genius. Too bad he couldn't forsee the existence of idiots who can't fukkin' read. FFS

You are an idiot. New or not.

When you play a new game - video game, board game, card game, sports game, or whatever you always learn the basic rules before hand. You dumb shit.
 

BrickManslab

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It seems like, for being hardcore opinion-havers, certain people are pretty easily offended. But I guess I'd be the same way though
 

Abelian

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. "As new player you don't fucking now this is super important and in BG or BG2 you couldn't increase stats so if you choose 14 int for a mage then you essentially fucked it up and you would need to start all over again."

The person who invented the manual is fukkin' genius. Too bad he couldn't forsee the existence of idiots who can't fukkin' read. FFS

You are an idiot. New or not.

When you play a new game - video game, board game, card game, sports game, or whatever you always learn the basic rules before hand. You dumb shit.
I actually searched the BG manual so I could copy and paste a quote followed by RTFM, but the manual doesn't say the the ability scores are final or can only be increased in special circumstances.

The max spell level is implied because spell list only goes up to level 5, but the character ability tables go up to spell level 9. The class descriptions don't list the minimum ability scores.
 
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I'm all for the extirpation of "GM sucker-punch" just, as always with Sawyer, not certain our definitions align. I really don't find things like the Mulmaster Beholder Corps (got Dust of Disappearance? No? Enjoy only being able to win via exploits. Yes? Congrats, most of the fight becomes trivial), the Dink in Wizardry 4, or the Empathetic Manifestation in BG2 to be all that interesting. I do, however, find things like BG2 set-piece encounters to be pretty interesting but, according to Sawyer tracts/fragments from His Commentator, they are rife with abilities that require "hard counters".

So, yeah, ambivalent about these J-Saw gleanings.

Well, you can test that pretty simply. Try to imagine a game that's exactly like Baldur's Gate 2 but doesn't have the issues he mentions. For example, a Baldur's Gate 2 where thieves and fighters have some innate abilities that allow them to participate more actively in dismantling enemy mage defenses in so-called "mage duels".

If that seems less fun to you, then you're right and he's being an arrogant git. If it's equally or more fun, then he's right and the things you thought were important aren't really that important.

Thing is, Sawyer takes it a lot further than simply going for a more equitable allocation of mechanics amongst classes and arbitrarily deems certain things as "unfun" or "(requiring) hard counters", justifying their removal. While I would certainly be down with "Infinitronism", a design philosophy that builds extra options into Mechanically-Underprivileged-Classes, I can't be down with losing fun abilities like Haste, Simulacrum, "real" Spell Turning, powerful summons, and such because Sawyer can't bother himself to actually design in counters and ways around them. It's not like these abilities are stupidly broken/uninteractive like Time Stop and are incapable of existing in a "balanced" (nebulous term alert) system.

Not efficient in BG ?

You mean dying like the bitch without using game knowledge if you fuckup your stats. His point are viable imo. For example AD&D and 3.5 wisdom and int stat being responsible for max level of your spells. As new player you don't fucking now this is super important and in BG or BG2 you couldn't increase stats so if you choose 14 int for a mage then you essentially fucked it up and you would need to start all over again.

Neither BG title actually implemented stat-requirements for spells. All INT did was increase chance to learn from scrolls and WIS merely granted a few bonus spell slots to Clerics/Druids/Rangers/Pallys. Anomen's tiny, pink 12 WIS was enough to intone Summon Deva, Earthquake, and other high level priestly goodies.

The game was also quite robust against most stat mis-allocations. Fighting classes actually had floors on STR/CON/DEX that would prevent truly harsh maluses from hampering their proficiencies in combat. Early game could be a lot rougher for poorly rolled characters, but could easily be ameliorated by good spell/ability use. Later game becomes far more equipment-focused, with many weapons and pieces of armor setting stats to a high level. Your 11-STR warrior can now have anywhere between 18/00 and 25 STR, depending on what you equip. Similar accouterments exist for DEX, CON, and even CHA (if you need it). And in the interim, before acquiring these pieces, stat-setting potions actually become useful, as opposed to being vendor trash. Getting 18 STR for a couple hours or setting AC to 0 is actually an upgrade, whereas min/max'd juggernauts would only be downgraded by quaffing these brews. Both Baldur's Gate titles also had companions with decent to good stats to further soften any blow and the

The biggest mis-steps players could make are selecting a poor party (which isn't irreversible in BG1/2) or not exploiting the random hit-points on level-up (which was a dumb holdover from PnP, ill-suited to combat-focused cRPGs).

While it can be argued that character creation in the (2nd-Ed Forgotten Realms) IE games was tactically uninteresting (hmmm, do I roll all 18s or do I not? Decisions...decisions), it's really hard for me to see it as difficult, unforgiving, or inaccessible.
 

Perkel

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Neither BG title actually implemented stat-requirements for spells. All INT did was increase chance to learn from scrolls and WIS merely granted a few bonus spell slots to Clerics/Druids/Rangers/Pallys. Anomen's tiny, pink 12 WIS was enough to intone Summon Deva, Earthquake, and other high level priestly goodies.

The game was also quite robust against most stat mis-allocations. Fighting classes actually had floors on STR/CON/DEX that would prevent truly harsh maluses from hampering their proficiencies in combat. Early game could be a lot rougher for poorly rolled characters, but could easily be ameliorated by good spell/ability use. Later game becomes far more equipment-focused, with many weapons and pieces of armor setting stats to a high level. Your 11-STR warrior can now have anywhere between 18/00 and 25 STR, depending on what you equip. Similar accouterments exist for DEX, CON, and even CHA (if you need it). And in the interim, before acquiring these pieces, stat-setting potions actually become useful, as opposed to being vendor trash. Getting 18 STR for a couple hours or setting AC to 0 is actually an upgrade, whereas min/max'd juggernauts would only be downgraded by quaffing these brews. Both Baldur's Gate titles also had companions with decent to good stats to further soften any blow and the

The biggest mis-steps players could make are selecting a poor party (which isn't irreversible in BG1/2) or not exploiting the random hit-points on level-up (which was a dumb holdover from PnP, ill-suited to combat-focused cRPGs).

While it can be argued that character creation in the (2nd-Ed Forgotten Realms) IE games was tactically uninteresting (hmmm, do I roll all 18s or do I not? Decisions...decisions), it's really hard for me to see it as difficult, unforgiving, or inaccessible.


You assume this from gamer with experience position. You know where is equipment that will give you boost. Most of players starting game don't know that and there is very very very big chance they won't even find one piece of that gear.

Like i said it is not problem with ruleset which i did enjoy in BG but with presentation of used rules.
 

Monty

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there is very very very big chance they won't even find one piece of that gear.
Won't even find one piece of that gear? I guess if someone is so retarded that they can't even make it to the Adventurers Mart (Girdle of Hill Giant strength) then this is a possibility.

Not really helping your argument much though. Finding useful items is part of the fun of the game after all.
 

Volourn

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"I actually searched the BG manual so I could copy and paste a quote followed by RTFM, but the manual doesn't say the the ability scores are final or can only be increased in special circumstances."

Why the fuck would it? It's fukkin' 2E. there are no stat increases on level up like 3E and don't say you expect it to because of 3E. 3E cam aftewrads so there should be no expectations of 2E having the same.

The manual tells you that at level you roll your character and those are your stats. It tells you what the stats do and they effect your character in the game and what stats are needed for which classes. It's not complex. It's not hidden. It's right ther ein the manual. The idea that the manual should tell all the secrets of the game is stupid.
 

imweasel

Guest
"You won’t, he said, boot up the game only to be greeted with blocks of text explaining its systems in the most alienating fashion, something that’s made it difficult even for me to revisit old classic CRPGs like Baldur’s Gate."

What BG did he fukkin' play?
He is making up excuses so he doesn't have to play Baldur's Gate again. He just isn't a fan of the trilogy.
 

Korron

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Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I never read the BG2 manual in depth, but I remember reading online that doom was fantastic against dragons. This was a spell I would dismiss as not that great in my younger years, and, as far as I remember, the high magic resistance was never elaborated on in game. Not being a DND player, I think I encountered a lot of creatures without knowing the best method to defeat them. Now I'm a bit more observant, and don't have to turn to online walkthroughs very often. However, I just bring it up as an example of one of the ways the game was a bit obtuse for a first-time player. If I'm playing in a devs newly imagined world, offering insight into the mechanics without me having to go through tutorial hell or read a fucking bible is a positive thing in my book.
 

Volourn

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Wait... so you think develoeprs should write kin the manual how to beat different monsters. I guess they should spell out in manual that the FIRE elemental is IMMUNE to FIRE attacks and ICE attacks may hurt it more. FFS

Where's your sense of figuring things out on your own. This doesn't preclude having 'hints' found in game that the player can find by exploring and talking to npcs obviously. FFS

The manual should not be used as a 'how to beat the game' cheat book. It should tell you the basics of the game, how to make a character, and what you get for level ups. Which BGs 9and all the IE games and almost eveyr other fukkin' RPG manual does). FFS Everything else is a fukkin' bonus.
 

Korron

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Wait... so you think develoeprs should write kin the manual how to beat different monsters. I guess they should spell out in manual that the FIRE elemental is IMMUNE to FIRE attacks and ICE attacks may hurt it more. FFS

Where's your sense of figuring things out on your own. This doesn't preclude having 'hints' found in game that the player can find by exploring and talking to npcs obviously. FFS

The manual should not be used as a 'how to beat the game' cheat book. It should tell you the basics of the game, how to make a character, and what you get for level ups. Which BGs 9and all the IE games and almost eveyr other fukkin' RPG manual does). FFS Everything else is a fukkin' bonus.

Ya nice strawman, and no I don't want it in a manual. Thank you for your astute dissection of my comment. They will write biographies highlighting your amazing wit one day. Specific knowledge on traits of some races/creatures presented via exploration or uncovering of lore is what I mean. Natural tutorials at the cost of exploring the depths of the game content. I shouldn't have to have a background familiarity in the setting to learn the finer details of strategy. It's always been elaborate rock, paper, scissors. Making that accessible would be the best way to do it imo, and Sawyer's comments on accessibility, dialogue, and being tutorial-lite make me think this will be their approach. Sounds good to me. I have no loyalty to the old ways at the cost of improvements if done correctly like some of you crotchety bastards on here.

Also I think the bg2 manual had a beastiary section for some creatures.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Thing is, Sawyer takes it a lot further than simply going for a more equitable allocation of mechanics amongst classes and arbitrarily deems certain things as "unfun" or "(requiring) hard counters", justifying their removal. While I would certainly be down with "Infinitronism", a design philosophy that builds extra options into Mechanically-Underprivileged-Classes, I can't be down with losing fun abilities like Haste, Simulacrum, "real" Spell Turning, powerful summons, and such because Sawyer can't bother himself to actually design in counters and ways around them. It's not like these abilities are stupidly broken/uninteractive like Time Stop and are incapable of existing in a "balanced" (nebulous term alert) system.

Well, I don't feel that Sawyer has removed anything that's critical to the IE experience. He's definitely added a lot more than he removed. Also, his classification of "fun" and "unfun" is about overall design, not individual abilities.

BTW, by saying that Time Stop is "stupidly broken/uninteractive" and should be removed, you've made yourself an enemy of a lot of the Sawyer haters on this forum, just FYI

Neither BG title actually implemented stat-requirements for spells. All INT did was increase chance to learn from scrolls and WIS merely granted a few bonus spell slots to Clerics/Druids/Rangers/Pallys. Anomen's tiny, pink 12 WIS was enough to intone Summon Deva, Earthquake, and other high level priestly goodies.

The game was also quite robust against most stat mis-allocations. Fighting classes actually had floors on STR/CON/DEX that would prevent truly harsh maluses from hampering their proficiencies in combat. Early game could be a lot rougher for poorly rolled characters, but could easily be ameliorated by good spell/ability use. Later game becomes far more equipment-focused, with many weapons and pieces of armor setting stats to a high level. Your 11-STR warrior can now have anywhere between 18/00 and 25 STR, depending on what you equip. Similar accouterments exist for DEX, CON, and even CHA (if you need it). And in the interim, before acquiring these pieces, stat-setting potions actually become useful, as opposed to being vendor trash. Getting 18 STR for a couple hours or setting AC to 0 is actually an upgrade, whereas min/max'd juggernauts would only be downgraded by quaffing these brews. Both Baldur's Gate titles also had companions with decent to good stats to further soften any blow and the

The biggest mis-steps players could make are selecting a poor party (which isn't irreversible in BG1/2) or not exploiting the random hit-points on level-up (which was a dumb holdover from PnP, ill-suited to combat-focused cRPGs).

While it can be argued that character creation in the (2nd-Ed Forgotten Realms) IE games was tactically uninteresting (hmmm, do I roll all 18s or do I not? Decisions...decisions), it's really hard for me to see it as difficult, unforgiving, or inaccessible.

A character with its primary stats at minimum is still pretty crappy though.

The design goal here isn't to make it impossible to create a character who can't beat the game by the skin of his teeth. As you said, the IE games already fit that description.

It's to make it impossible to create a clearly inferior character who isn't good at what he's supposed to do (his class) and isn't fun to play.
 

Darth Roxor

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The problem with everything Sawyer says is that he talks in absolutes all the time. Because of that it's actually hard to decide whether he really wants to end fun on the whole or just partially. Also, it makes me him look like a fucking dweeb (which he probably is).
 

Commissar Draco

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Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
ITT Sawyer is the liberal Lyric Suite.

Comrade Lyric Suite is far more entertaining though.

In BG you can always play as easier to figure out class (not mage) if you lack the mental fortitude to read and memorize all those arcane spells.

None is immune to being swatted with sword or big club after all (and even if it is you have party to compensate)
 

FeelTheRads

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Well, I don't feel that Sawyer has removed anything that's critical to the IE experience.

Well, you don't think anything is critical really. Somehow for you games are more than the subtraction of their parts.

sn't good at what he's supposed to do (his class) and isn't fun to play.

Are these two related or different things? I don't see why making a character that isn't good at what he does isn't fun to play. On the contrary, the fun is in how to tackle the game with such a characters.

And if you have some nebulous definition of "IE experience" that is certainly not lost, I can have some nebulous definition of fun that is certainly lost, and Sawyer (or you) can't tell me what is fun or not.
 
Last edited:

Perkel

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I have to tell you, the DT system in New Vegas is harder to figure out for myself than AC and THAC0 in DnD.

Now that is crazy talk.

DT is very simple.

Your 9mm does 10 damage, target has 5DT. 10-5=5.

5 damage dealt.

DT works on every bullet which means that for example for shotguns throwing 3 bullets in each shot doing 6 damage each, 3*(6-5)=3. 3 will be actual damage lower than 9mm situation.

Which means that if target is armored you should use either gun that has high single bullet damage or AP ammo.

I really love that idea and thanks to this you actively are trying to fight tactically instead of using best dps weapon
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I don't see why making a character how isn't good at what he does isn't fun to play.

OK. I just hope you realize that games that allow you to create such characters have typically nerfed the difficulty of enemy encounters in order to compensate for that possibility. If that's a tradeoff that you accept, then I got nothing.

Although I suppose if you really want to create a bad/inept character in PoE, you could use an editor.
 
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RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
The problem with BG is that star descriptions are inaccurate. When I played it as a kid I allocated some points into int and wis (as a warrior) since the manual told me that it's responsible for how smart the character actually is. I expected that putting to little point in int or wis will bite me in the ass like in Fallouts. Turned out that it did nothing at all. At least the manual was full of tables with actually let you know what the stats actually do.
On the other hand M&M 6 (which I'm currently) is simply terrible in that regard. The tell you that might increases your attack power, but hide from you how much it increases and how many points you have to put in to see effects, it also doesn't mention that you need your stats above certain level to master some skills. Thankfully you have so many occasions to increase your stats that your starting stats hardly matter.
 

Perkel

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I think not allowing you to fuck up character on purpose or not is bad design.

Proper design would be to give new players recomended settings and for those who know what they are doing there should be small chechbox with "advanced" and then players would have usual stat system to play with
 

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