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Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failures with Pillars of Eternity

luj1

You're all shills
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Me, I don't care much about combat, and if you don't count combat, PoE was a fun game to play (and PoE 2 was great).
For me combat and system was only things that made PoE 3.0 worth playing. Everything else was not exactly bad per se, but rather unattractive.

RTwP has nothing to do with why Pillars sucked ass. The main reasons were the faulty ruleset and bad core systems, followed by poor writing and worldbuilding.

This is why TB mode does not magically fix Pillars. It was a desperate last resort, used only because it was late for everything else.
 
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Tigranes

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"I dont know why poe failed but like every other dog in the kennel i have my own pet theory which must be true man sawya so dumb he cant see it its so simple" the thread

I am much more surprised by the sales success of DOS, Poe1 and even PKM, really. Deadfire numbers are more what I expected from all of them. Perhaps it isnt so much that Deadfire failed (after all, its numerous failures by grognard standards should have little to do with sales, look at initial sales for pst or arcanum) but that poe1 etc rode the winds of unreplicable sales success for the niche.

But hey, Ferg and Fargo certainly got their dream exit out of it.
 

J1M

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14 pages is a lot of pages.

Probably said already but the number one reason I didn't care about the PoE world was the fact that I could not pronounce or remember any of its proper nouns. It is like it was written as a purposeful attempt at sabotage.

Number two reason was the abomination known as real-time with pause.
 

Atchodas

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I know this is hard to figure out for snowflake millenials who grew up on MMOS, but tank/healer/buffer/dps isn't the only way to build a cRPG party. While you are buffing during ongoing combat, somebody else could already start blasting the enemy and have the same results. Somebody else could be CC'ing the enemy and have the same result. This isn't rocket science and there's no reason to be upset. You just feel a little sad because you discovered that your super special strategy is neither special nor interesting to other people. Keep taking long breaths and it will pass.

Majority of self buffs are instant cast and has no recovery, especially those I named but keep talking retard you sure know your stuff.
 
Vatnik
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Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In
I really liked the hwrpa-dwrp names but if anything POE1's writing and music and tone was too calm, sensible, etc. Could've done with more zany stuff like Vithracks.
 
Self-Ejected

Lichtbringer

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  1. Infinity Engine nostalgia and hype after the game's announcement pushed sales for PoE 1
  2. Subsequent lack of appeal for the PoE series in itself and a higher price hindered sales for PoE 2
That is how I see it.
 

fantadomat

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"I dont know why poe failed but like every other dog in the kennel i have my own pet theory which must be true man sawya so dumb he cant see it its so simple" the thread

I am much more surprised by the sales success of DOS, Poe1 and even PKM, really. Deadfire numbers are more what I expected from all of them. Perhaps it isnt so much that Deadfire failed (after all, its numerous failures by grognard standards should have little to do with sales, look at initial sales for pst or arcanum) but that poe1 etc rode the winds of unreplicable sales success for the niche.

But hey, Ferg and Fargo certainly got their dream exit out of it.
So you think that there are only a 200,000 rpg fans in the world?!?! In those times a million sales is a niche genre. RPG fans bought poe expecting BG like game,they didn't received it and thus they didn't backed poe2. They tried kingmaker and they received what it was expected from the game,that is why they supported it even if it was that buggy.
 

Kyl Von Kull

The Night Tripper
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
"I dont know why poe failed but like every other dog in the kennel i have my own pet theory which must be true man sawya so dumb he cant see it its so simple" the thread

I am much more surprised by the sales success of DOS, Poe1 and even PKM, really. Deadfire numbers are more what I expected from all of them. Perhaps it isnt so much that Deadfire failed (after all, its numerous failures by grognard standards should have little to do with sales, look at initial sales for pst or arcanum) but that poe1 etc rode the winds of unreplicable sales success for the niche.

But hey, Ferg and Fargo certainly got their dream exit out of it.

It’s not like Kingmaker sold *that much* better than Deadfire (though it appears to have a fatter tail). They’re basically in the same ballpark, Kingmaker just cost a lot less to make. The real outlier is D:OS2.
 

fantadomat

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"I dont know why poe failed but like every other dog in the kennel i have my own pet theory which must be true man sawya so dumb he cant see it its so simple" the thread

I am much more surprised by the sales success of DOS, Poe1 and even PKM, really. Deadfire numbers are more what I expected from all of them. Perhaps it isnt so much that Deadfire failed (after all, its numerous failures by grognard standards should have little to do with sales, look at initial sales for pst or arcanum) but that poe1 etc rode the winds of unreplicable sales success for the niche.

But hey, Ferg and Fargo certainly got their dream exit out of it.

It’s not like Kingmaker sold *that much* better than Deadfire (though it appears to have a fatter tail). They’re basically in the same ballpark, Kingmaker just cost a lot less to make. The real outlier is D:OS2.
Ahh when the developer tells you that it sold as good as PoE,or around it,and you still go on butthurt and delusional arguing that it didn't sold well....

:shredder:
 

fantadomat

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Ahh when the developer tells you that it sold as good as PoE,or around it,and you still go on butthurt and delusional arguing that it didn't sold well....

Really? It sold that well? Was Owlcat that said it?
Nah sawyer hinted it in the first post. He said that it sold way better than deadfire and it was close to PoE1. Kyl is just butthurt and keeps on talking about how it didn't every chance he gets. I must have read like 50 posts from him saying the same thing during the kingmaker release.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Ahh when the developer tells you that it sold as good as PoE,or around it,and you still go on butthurt and delusional arguing that it didn't sold well....

Huh? Why would I be butthurt that Kingmaker did well? I love Kingmaker. Josh said it did better than Deadfire, but citation very much needed that it did better than POE. We were tracking this after release, it sold like 200,000 to 300,000 units before they started putting it on sale. Those are Tyranny numbers.

If Deadfire sold as well as Kingmaker, it would still be a huge failure for Obsidian because they spent so much money making it.
 

Tigranes

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Sawyer said it did better than Deadfire - and PKM obviously cost a lot less. I think that's the kind of budget/profit you can expect from this kind of game, and I think it's great that Owlcat made it work.

Sawyer said nothing about PKM selling "close to POE1", I don't know where fanta boy gets it from.
 

Tigranes

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Joined
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Messages
10,350
"I dont know why poe failed but like every other dog in the kennel i have my own pet theory which must be true man sawya so dumb he cant see it its so simple" the thread

I am much more surprised by the sales success of DOS, Poe1 and even PKM, really. Deadfire numbers are more what I expected from all of them. Perhaps it isnt so much that Deadfire failed (after all, its numerous failures by grognard standards should have little to do with sales, look at initial sales for pst or arcanum) but that poe1 etc rode the winds of unreplicable sales success for the niche.

But hey, Ferg and Fargo certainly got their dream exit out of it.
So you think that there are only a 200,000 rpg fans in the world?!?! In those times a million sales is a niche genre. RPG fans bought poe expecting BG like game,they didn't received it and thus they didn't backed poe2. They tried kingmaker and they received what it was expected from the game,that is why they supported it even if it was that buggy.

A million copies is something very few good RPGs have ever achieved. Easier to get a million if you create a muh cinematique RPG with romances, fake choices and trash mobs. Harder if you are trying to make an Arcanum or Fallout. Most of the 'Golden Age' RPGs failed to hit a million in the first year of release - some of them only came close years later through long-term word of mouth. Hence, it would be nonsense to set out to create a spiritual successor to BG, or Divinity:Original Sin, and expect to sell 1m+ copies. I don't think Obsidian and Larian ever expected it - and were pleasantly surprised. The problem with Deadfire was that this was taken as a baseline of sales potential.

Beyond POE and more generally, I would say anyone trying to make an old school RPG should look to hit that 250k-500k window and budget appropriately - which is what it seems like Owlcat did!

For POE specifically, I imagine that, yes, BG nostalgia inflated P1 sales hugely, and disappointment with P1 (of whatever stripe) impacted P2 sales. I'm not sure how PKM2 would do, though. Not everyone pirates a game, plays it for hours, and then decides whether to purchase it. A lot of people buy shit on Steam sales then never touch it, and I wonder how exactly those people decide to get sequels or not.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
"I dont know why poe failed but like every other dog in the kennel i have my own pet theory which must be true man sawya so dumb he cant see it its so simple" the thread

I am much more surprised by the sales success of DOS, Poe1 and even PKM, really. Deadfire numbers are more what I expected from all of them. Perhaps it isnt so much that Deadfire failed (after all, its numerous failures by grognard standards should have little to do with sales, look at initial sales for pst or arcanum) but that poe1 etc rode the winds of unreplicable sales success for the niche.

But hey, Ferg and Fargo certainly got their dream exit out of it.
So you think that there are only a 200,000 rpg fans in the world?!?! In those times a million sales is a niche genre. RPG fans bought poe expecting BG like game,they didn't received it and thus they didn't backed poe2. They tried kingmaker and they received what it was expected from the game,that is why they supported it even if it was that buggy.

A million copies is something very few good RPGs have ever achieved. Easier to get a million if you create a muh cinematique RPG with romances, fake choices and trash mobs. Harder if you are trying to make an Arcanum or Fallout. Most of the 'Golden Age' RPGs failed to hit a million in the first year of release - some of them only came close years later through long-term word of mouth. Hence, it would be nonsense to set out to create a spiritual successor to BG, or Divinity:Original Sin, and expect to sell 1m+ copies. I don't think Obsidian and Larian ever expected it - and were pleasantly surprised. The problem with Deadfire was that this was taken as a baseline of sales potential.

Beyond POE and more generally, I would say anyone trying to make an old school RPG should look to hit that 250k-500k window and budget appropriately - which is what it seems like Owlcat did!

For POE specifically, I imagine that, yes, BG nostalgia inflated P1 sales hugely, and disappointment with P1 (of whatever stripe) impacted P2 sales. I'm not sure how PKM2 would do, though. Not everyone pirates a game, plays it for hours, and then decides whether to purchase it. A lot of people buy shit on Steam sales then never touch it, and I wonder how exactly those people decide to get sequels or not.

Same way we did the first one. Word of mouth gets it off the bench from there. If it’s good then we generate more word of mouth. We’re force multipliers.

First dev who figures out how to monetize our (relatively) deep pockets should have the resources to make a great game. Kickstarter is one way to do it. Not the only one.
 

deuxhero

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Flowery Land
Unironicly NV's gun balance was one of Sawyer's best bits of mechanical design. Some very simple principles (always give the "lower tier" guns something better than their followup, don't make all weapon type have an entry in each tier ) made what could easily have been a huge clusterfuck (as it is in all the Bethesda's Fallouts and all looter shooters out there) into something that works well enough for what it is. Cowboy and Grunt perks also deserve mention.
 

Zakhad

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I really liked POE2 (Turn-based) and I am sad that nobody bought it. Would never play POE1 again, but am playing through POE2 again right now. The turn-based mode just made me realise at last how terrible RTWP is as a system. It's a fun game and deserved better treatment.
 

Beastro

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Messages
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They aren't only responsible for the narrative (which was awful in both games)

A problem here is that a good idea for a story doesn't mean it's a good idea for a story when implemented.

I haven't played the second, but the first was ultimately about getting no real answers, no real resolution, touching on the sense of nihilism that isn't the kind that chews the scenery in bitterness or contempt at life, but melancholy loss as no meaning to life when meaning seems to be the big thing we seek.

I can think of that as a neat idea, I could say it's a neat idea for a game, you know, the medium where meaning is massive relative to other mediums and so many revolve around saving the world and protecting things like meaning in life, if only it's a sense of progression. Wouldn't it be awesome to subvert games but having the game be about unanswered questions and unfulfilled longing?

It could be.... only those things aren't fun. Games are an entertaining medium and an interactive one meant to grab your attention more than most and infusing your players with indifference make them not want to play. I know because I dropped the game after doing Sagani's quest and predicted the ending once it became clear her mentor reincarnated into an animal she was now looking for after completing Eder's, Kana's and Aloth's quests and got the same fucking ending tailored to each.

It may be novel to subvert and leave things unresolved with people resigned to never knowing, it could even be good as people seem to like movies like Melancholia, but people won't like it in a game they dedicate tens of hours over God knows how many days, weeks and months playing.

Your post should be sent back in time to Obsidian's office in 2012.

No matter how you look at it, the opening to Pillars is weak. It's not memorable and save for Thaos' brief appaerance in the end it has nothing to do with the rest of the world. The caravan was, from what I remember, just random people emigrating to America Dyrwood because they wanted work. The faction of native elves protecting the ruins never featured again from what I recall. The biawac soul-storm was just some random thing that happened once, wasn't it? Then there's the temporary companions that was a really dumb move. And the generic lizardmen trash mobs that had nothing to with the main plot whatsoever.

The annoying thing for me is the typical loaded intro where everything's on display that is then largely dropped once out of the starting area whether it's for lack of resources or simply to impress the reviewers who won't play beyond it doesn't matter.

It wasn't great, but I enjoyed picking your background shit and then seeing the ques to use it in dialogue afterwards come up. After the intro those dropped off with the only consistent ones being the demeanor emotes or whatever, which given that I picked a stoic, taciturn Barbarian as mine resulted in just a ton of "Glowers silently" options coming up in dialogue.

Agreed. I liked both games, but I have no interest in the world. I disliked the god nonsense in the first game, and was tired to death by it by the second game.

I like the Eothas stuff, at least as far as the first game. I like how things turn out that the companions you have from the war in the first game eventually come to realize they picked the wrong side of the war and he was what he stated to be without an ulterior motive. He came to help everyone and was killed due to the mechainations of the other gods. Eder's brother was right and Eder's choices that led him to oppose Eothas reveal him to be an apostate in the wrong while him thinking his brother was a fool is turned on its head.

Now if they had been the main focus of a setting based around the legacy of the Saint's War it could have been good, but even the Eothas focused sequel was going to be submerged in the rest of PoEs setting and screw with it.

I think FO:NV's opening hook is overrated. Which isn't to say that it's not a better opening than PoE's, but I think the people who view it as this, like, major thing that totally MAKES the game are getting it wrong.

I mean I can easily imagine an Obsidian isometric RPG that starts with you getting killed and then waking up at some healer's abode with lots of dialogue and people going "Wtf is this shit, I'm not invested". That's not really what it's about.

I think it's the events that happen after the opening that sell FO:NV. Encountering the game's first factions, organizing the townsfolk of Goodspring against the Powder Gangers, liberating Primm, participating in the NCR raid on the prison that visibly changes the balance of power in the world, all within the first hours of the game. THAT'S fucking cool.

That wasn't the hook for me, I couldn't have cared less for being shot.

The hook for me was hearing Ron Perlman continuing the history of the US Southwest after Fallout 2 with enough names and settings from Van Buren to feel like Fallout was back on course after Bethesda's meddling.
 
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Beastro

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It becomes absurd at the level of frequency in most cRPGs. Most importantly, it's boring and unstrategic.

It's like the evangelical company boss who demands everyone in the room pray over every little decision they agree on rather than a simple, broad one near the beginning or end.

Still, I love when buffing can play a role in long term combat, like the juggle you have to do with it in games like Everquest where buffing and buffing order are crucial as well as the mark of a good PvP being their ability to be ambushed naked of buffs and be able to turn the fight around.

The thing with them though was they were on timers (15min-2hrs+)and ate into your mana a good bit, requiring you to stop and prepare to med back up lest you find yourself losing a crucial buff at the wrong time, like having your movement buff fade in the middle of running away from mobs.

RTwP has nothing to do with why Pillars sucked ass. The main reasons were the faulty ruleset and bad core systems, followed by poor writing and worldbuilding.

This is why TB mode does not magically fix Pillars. It was a desperate last resort, used only because it was late for everything else.

I don't get the sense to that engagement system at least as it was originally implemented (dunno if it was changed later). It ground everything to a halt once everyone rushed one another and prevented any sort of movement. If they wanted to go with that wtf no just go with some "fixed" combat system like a blobber or JPRG like Final Fantasy has and just leave any presence of player placement out.

Gandalf isn't a mage, as evidenced by his failure to ever cast fireballs and cloudkill and murder everything! He's almost certainly some kind of cleric/thief with a couple magic wands larping as a wizard.

Cept he did. Magic, at least wizard magic, is reactive and environmental in LOTR and not specifically requiring reagents. It's a point he makes when the Fellowship tries to cross the mountain pass before Moria. Gimli bitches asking why Gandalf isn't melting all the snow blocking their path and he replies that he needs something to do that with, and apparently something proportional to the act, as the firewood they brought wasn't enough for that but he was able to start a fire with it when no one else could get one going by just touching his staff to one of the logs.

Another from the Hobbit is when they're hiding from the huge army of wolves in trees he starts picking pine cones and firing them off aflame like fireworks to land on wolves and starts setting a bunch on fire, which then backfires when Orcs arrive and use the patches of fire he's started to build pyres around the trees everyone's hiding in to try to smoke them out.

There's also the physical exhaustion aspect he runs into trying to magically block a door in Moria and the check that the Balrog attempts to defeat his spell with almost killed him if it had succeeded and how he can't do many things when called upon because he says the spells require preparation in a Vancian manner.

Regardless of how it works, magic ala typical wizard use seems to be done in a way to prevent them simply standing around waving their hands and murdering all in their path and for a sword and physical action to be required, if only to fill in the times in between when magic is unavailable.
 
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Diggfinger

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I think what they underestimated is how much the first game benefited from Kickstarter hype and antagonism of gaming audience towards big publishers at the time. It was still the era of indie gold rush, with people willing to throw money at every pixelated shovelare, and it impacted the sales, popular reception and the 89 Metacritic, all of which were obviously overinflated. Clearly they've missed all the signs and went over the top with expensive production, only to be profoundly shocked that gloves came off when Deadfire came out and the same fanbase that previously would have accepted any game in this style without reservations, was suddenly more critical and demanding.

As for figuring out what people want from this sort of game - this is an impossible task that could drive any man to alcoholism. Fanbase has always been viciously divided and typically splits in half between factions of Archeologists and Innovators with some sub-factions inbetween.

I think the only 'mistake' Deadfire did was to not have co-op or multiplayer. DOS1/2 has set the norm for that already, and players were expecting it.

Luckily, TOW's sales seems to be doing just fine despite being single-player only
:love:
 

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