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People News Josh Sawyer says he failed with Pillars II, would direct a third game if he can figure out why

Discussion in 'RPG Codex News & Content Comments' started by Infinitron, Nov 13, 2019.

  1. Bumvelcrow Bellator Sempervirens Patron

    Bumvelcrow
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    Codex 2013 Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Location: Евразия
     
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  2. Magnat Arcane

    Magnat
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    Holy pravoslavnik alphabet, comrade; not pagan Etruscan runes.

    Yet I was not referring to the script, but to the orthographical rendition of different phonemes in Welsh.
     
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  3. Bumvelcrow Bellator Sempervirens Patron

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    Codex 2013 Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    I know, but I couldn't resist the textbook Codex response to a statement like that. Welsh should probably have gone down the Scandinavian route of adding additional letters or Slavic diacritics to some of the consonants instead of doubling up and pretending they're new letters, but the vowels and standard mutation clusters are quite consistently represented. Let's hug, drink vodka, and mock the Irish instead for their appalling use of the Latin alphabet.
     
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  4. l3loodAngel Proud INTJ Patron Edgy

    l3loodAngel
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    Was? MMOesque system cannot be fixed no matter what you do. POE2 is more of the same, but instead of making setting interesting they were busy with really important stuff like kicking Avellone out through the door and adding hats to appease cross dressers. The only man who could do it on their roster.
     
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  5. Dr Schultz Scholar

    Dr Schultz
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    Probably a more pronounced time-shift would have made apparent the differences. But still, Mark, the bulk of the narrative in the first game spins around an Inquisitor who is trying to stop a scientific revolution and in the second game around a struggle between colonial powers (this isn't literally the main plot in Deadfire but is where most of the narrative lies). Additionally, in both cases the soul thing is central. These are quite early modern age problems and themes.

    That's why I'm under the impression that Eora is simply trying to look like the Forgotten Realms.
     
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  6. Kyl Von Kull The Night Tripper Patron

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    You can tell a good story in any setting, so this strikes me as a pretty low bar.

    Bulk? You don’t find any of this out until roughly halfway through the goddamned game. Also, there’s nothing early modern about this narrative. You could just as easily set a religion vs science story in 12th century Cordoba. The setting in POE is thoroughly medieval aside from the presence of firearms.

    Again, nothing distinctly early modern about Deadfire aside from the presence of tall ships and guns. They could tell the same story modeled on 13th century Venice vs Genoa (especially since Venice is already the model for Valia), rather than 16th century Venice vs 18th century Great Britain.
     
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  7. Magnat Arcane

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    Don't forget the late Meiji era Japan ripoff of Rauatai.
     
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  8. Grunker RPG Codex Ghost Patron

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    Codex 2012 Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    A Darklands successor and a Blackguards-game in the style of PoE. Man I'd dig both.
     
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  9. Magnat Arcane

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    Do you want all of your dreams to die before your eyes, Dane?
     
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  10. Grunker RPG Codex Ghost Patron

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    Codex 2012 Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Sorry mate your meme is too new for me to have gotten with the program
     
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  11. Magnat Arcane

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    No meme there, just the sad reality that all of these successor games, spiritual or franchised, turn out being shit.
     
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  12. Dr Schultz Scholar

    Dr Schultz
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    True enough. Once I've read a preatty entertaining short story entirely setteled in a bathroom. Still, what I've said in my previous post is that I see the seeds of many good stories in this setting. Not exactly the same thing.

    The last time I've checked Thaos appeared in the first hour of the game. Additionally, no. The medieval inquisition is nothing like people imagine it: Few wandering inquisitors with really limited powers and little to no influence over the society as a whole. The Inquisition got serious in the modern age.

    As far as I know, Venice and Genoa (Amalfi and Pisa, for that matter) never fought over colonies inhabited by technologically inferior subjects. And being Italian I should know about that... Colonialism is a remarcably modern subject. It didn't happened until the age of the exporations, which, again, is a modern thing.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
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  13. Xeon Augur

    Xeon
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    I kinda liked Pathfinder Kingmaker, was pretty good overall.

    But yeah, most of them kinda sucked tho.
     
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  14. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Is it correct to say that the goal of the "grandiose effort" was to "obscure", when Josh Sawyer himself will openly admit that Pillars of Eternity is an elves & dwarves game? I think I would say it was aimed at a hypothetical self-aware audience that wanted those things but appreciated the complex adornments.

    In other words, sometimes people want to overrule Almendarez-Torres without saying "Almendarez-Torres", but other times they just think elaborate 5000 word petitions are cool.
     
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  15. IHaveHugeNick Arcane

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    To be fair, you need to have very high IQ to understand Pillars of Eternity.
     
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  16. hexer Arcane

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    Speaking of the future, even if he figures out why PoE2 failed, the real issue will be to convince his bosses he won't fail again.
     
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  17. MRY Prestigious Gentleman Wormwood Studios Developer

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    I guess until someone can explain why vampires are called fampyrs and gnomes/halflings are called Orlans and so forth, it’s hard for me to judge. I don’t really know what the underlying intent was; I certainly don’t think Obsidian was trying to snooker anyone.
     
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  18. Grunker RPG Codex Ghost Patron

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    Codex 2012 Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    You might be correct but that kindda highlights the sillyness of renaming everything, don't you think.

    This is highly speculative but I can't escape the feeling that Sawyer did all that silly renaming because he wanted to escape the reality of the game being an elves & dwarves game
     
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  19. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    The dual nature of genre obscurantism - it can be aimed either at people who don't like a genre, or at people who really like it.

    You can make a generic fantasy game with weird terms to disguise the fact that it's a generic fantasy game and sell it to people who don't like generic fantasy games.

    Or you can do the same to sell the game to people who DO like generic fantasy games, have liked them for many years, and now on a meta level appreciate being able to go "Heh, I see what you're trying to do there, this is different but not really".

    The second option is how Pillars of Eternity made me feel. Its obscurantism, far from being a disparagement of generic fantasy, is instead fan service for generic fantasy superfans. They figured that if you're the sort of person who thinks it's COOL to parse out the differences and similarities between fampyrs and vampires, then this is the game for you!
     
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  20. IHaveHugeNick Arcane

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    Anyway I don't know why are you guys so puzzled that Pillars tries to appear more exotic than it really is, as if it wasn't a common practice in the entire genre. 95% of fantasy novels amount to big city of totally-not-Constantinople struggling against totally-not-Vikings.
     
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  21. Grunker RPG Codex Ghost Patron

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    Codex 2012 Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    I think you're trying to overexplain the facts here. What it is is just muddled. In Danish we have a word - 'formfuldendt' - which basically means when something is trying to be something very clearly, and achieves being that thing to the fullest. That's what PoE isn't with its half-baked fantasy, half-baked historicism, etc., and the renamed stock fantasy monsters are just a symptom of that IMO.

    A simple way of saying is it that PoE wants to have its cake and eat it too. But again, I speculate that since Sawyer finds stock fantasy boring, he was trying to obscure the fact that he was actually making stock fantasy - maybe even from himself.

    That's also why White March is such a breath of fresh, cool air. It's sooooooooooo much more honest about what it is than the main game. It even has Crägholdt which is basically just completely oldschool P&P fan service.
     
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  22. vortex Fabulous Optimist

    vortex
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    Sawyer being half-austrian himself reads Forgotten Realm as Vergessen Reich with californication term Vorgotten Realms. V goes to F.
    Therefore Vampire is Fampyr(e).

    Problem with Pillars is that doesn't have gravitas of old words as horrific as it should be.
    Pillars is lighthearted excessively.
     
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  23. Jedi Master Radek Arcane

    Jedi Master Radek
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    And this is what happens when you don't create what you heart dictates.
     
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  24. Murk Arcane

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    I can't stop giggling at "fampyres"; is there an actual explanation?

    Are other mundane things renamed for no reason (not counting races, I mean objects or actions)?
     
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  25. Xeon Augur

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    At first I kinda thought they renamed things to protect themselves from lawsuit or something for naming things to what D&D have. But most of the stuff are kinda pretty common even outside of D&D I think so it kinda sounded stupid.
     
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