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Vapourware Josh Sawyer wants to make a historical RPG

Blaine

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Couple of faglords giving my post negative ratings while having no argument. I'll tell you what: Cite me an African "civilization" that was 1.) advanced at least to the point of mining and working metals and 2.) not a branch of of a greater civilization from elsewhere.

If you do, I'll never speak of this topic again anywhere on the Codex. I know you can't, though, because I looked... and I looked... and I looked harder still, and absolutely every single post-stone African "civilization" was imported and sustained from elsewhere.

Once, I even went to this weird place that's like those old video rental stores, except they rent books instead of movies but don't charge you for them, aside from late fees. Still nothing.
 

Nutria

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Off the top of my head, the Zulus.

zulu-wars-iklwa-1879-assegai-stabbing-spear.jpg
 

Blaine

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Off the top of my head, the Zulus.

zulu-wars-iklwa-1879-assegai-stabbing-spear.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_metallurgy_in_Africa#cite_ref-2

Although the origins of iron working in Africa have been the subject of scholarly interest since the 1860s, it is still not known whether this technology diffused into sub-Saharan Africa from the Mediterranean region, or whether it was invented there quite independently of iron working elsewhere.

Unfortunately, I don't have any physical book rentals available currently. Primitive, tribal, and Mesoamerican civilizations are a major interest of mine, so I'm not bullshitting when I imply I've read scholarly works on these subjects.

No definitive evidence exists to show that Africans ever independently developed metal mining and smelting techniques. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, but it does mean you can't prove it; whereas plentiful evidence exists for the independent development of metalworking by many other civilizations. I never said that Africans didn't have access to metals. In fact, that was a given, considering the cross-cultural contact that has occurred during various historical periods.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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Couple of faglords giving my post negative ratings while having no argument. I'll tell you what: Cite me an African "civilization" that was 1.) advanced at least to the point of mining and working metals and 2.) not a branch of of a greater civilization from elsewhere.

Couldn’t you make argument number two about anywhere outside the Fertile Crescent, the Yellow River valley and the Indus Valley?

Also, pretty sure Nigeria started smelting iron independently 3000 odd years ago.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nok_culture
 

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By this logic, white people have to literally reinvent the wheel to prove we're not retards.
 

Blaine

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Ah, Africa, birthplace of the assault rifle and the RPG. I'm sure a native African assembled an AK-47 from spare and cannibalized parts at some point, which is the same as developing firearms design and manufacture.


I've already read pretty much all of these sorts of articles, because I anticipated people regurgitating them back to me.

The relevant line states that data "from historic linguists" "suggests" that iron smelting was independently discovered; backed by two citations, both of which were co-authored by the same man, an Afrikaaner named Dr. Nicolaas Johannes van der Merwe. From what I can glean, he seems to have been primarily a pastor and politician (possibly a gentleman scientist). The second cited work's co-author is a geochemist specializing in carbon dating; I'm not sure about the first cited work's co-author. It's hard to find any specific information, because it's an obscure and esoteric subject, it's an older work, and the men involved aren't particularly well known.

So, essentially, that entire claim likely hinges on the contentions of one Dr. Nicolaas Johannes van der Merwe.

"Early Metal Working in Sub-Saharan Africa" is a 36-page journal article. When I'm through reading it, I'll get back to you.
 

Talby

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Couple of faglords giving my post negative ratings while having no argument. I'll tell you what: Cite me an African "civilization" that was 1.) advanced at least to the point of mining and working metals and 2.) not a branch of of a greater civilization from elsewhere.

Wakanda. :smug:
 

Blaine

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I was waiting for that. :lol:

I mean, blacksmithing was clearly invented in Africa. That's why it's called blacksmithing, my family.
 

Blaine

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I'm just tickled to death by the tacit implication here. Okay, yeah, maybe they did and still do live in dung huts and hunt with spears—but they had metal spearheads!

Let's assume for the sake of argument that Africans did develop mining and metalworking independently, although the jury's still out on that until I finish some reading. I've seen a metal spearhead. Next to the club or a shard of sharp rock with a crude plant fiber grip, the spear is the most primitive and ancient hand-crafted weapon of man. Where are the more advanced metal tools and the advanced metallurgy techniques that followed after simple, crude iron spearheads? Where are the missing links between those crude spears and obviously imported modern technologies?

I'll tell you where those missing links are: They're somewhere, anywhere other than Africa. At varying points in history throughout most of the world, clear and traceable evolutions of mining techniques, of advances in metallurgy, and in technological applications of metals can be found. Metals were the super-substances of their time, and in fact they remain the super-substances of our time. Certainly, technologies were frequently imported and exported; but once gained, most civilizations didn't just stop there. They didn't whip up some spears, jewelry, and crude sickles, and then call it good for thousands of years. They vigorously pursued metals and metallurgy with intensity, because metals afforded increasingly extensive advantages in pretty much every aspect of life.

It's almost as though, when a great civilization fell or simply departed from Africa, metals and metals-related technologies stalled right where they were, and then receded. It's almost as though those many imported civilizations I mentioned were Africa's only hotline to metals and metals technology throughout its history.

It's almost as though I laid a trap with this line of reasoning... almost. Yeah, almost. We'll go with that.

Personally, I see absolutely no issue with some human populations remaining primitive for much longer than others. Racism isn't even a factor here. Look at gorillas: They loll around in huge natural salad bowls all day, and haven't been forced by their environment into doing any differently. Those huge natural salad bowls are Eden for them. Despite its wildness and dangers (keeping in mind that nearly every single of inch of Earth was once just as dangerous, if not more so), Africa is an Eden for human beings. That's why our entire race was born there, and it's why Africans remained primitive for time immemorial when left alone. Africans are almost certainly fractionally less intelligent than other human beings who migrated to more challenging (for humans) environments and remained there for many, many millennia.

The logic is incredibly sound, but it feels racist so it just can't be true. We're not going to let it be true. That's why the endgame for this mode of thinking is the incredibly anti-intellectual, anti-historical WE WUZ KANGS movement, which is in fact very real and not just a meme.
 
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There's already was one RPG/Adventure with an African fantasy setting, Quest for Glory 3. And it was mediocre at best. Mind you, Coles were talented designers back then. If they couldn't make such setting interesting, I very much doubt that Josh "No Fun Allowed" Sawyer can do it.
 

Blaine

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There's already was one RPG/Adventure with African fantasy setting, Quest for Glory 3. And it was mediocre at best. Mind you, Coles were talented designers back then. If they couldn't make such setting interesting, I very much doubt that Josh "No Fun Allowed" Sawyer can do it.

That one was my favorite QfG as a youngern, next to IV. I liked it a lot.

Leopard people, Manu the monkey, special waffle encounter, honeybird, cool liontaur temple, Computer Game Jaffar, Fred Sanford merchant guy... good stuff, good stuff.
 
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There's already was one RPG/Adventure with African fantasy setting, Quest for Glory 3. And it was mediocre at best. Mind you, Coles were talented designers back then. If they couldn't make such setting interesting, I very much doubt that Josh "No Fun Allowed" Sawyer can do it.

That one was my favorite QfG as a youngern, next to IV. I liked it a lot.

Leopard people, Manu the monkey, special waffle encounter, honeybird, cool liontaur temple, Computer Game Jaffar, Fred Sanford merchant guy... good stuff, good stuff.
Hm. I played it right after the first two (probably in 1996 or so), and by comparison it was quite bland. Too much pointless traveling, less interesting characters, and I also remember it being more buggy than its predecessors (QFG4 was even more buggy, ofc, but it was legitimately a great game).

Then again, even if we presume that it was a flawed gem – I still doubt that Sawyer could make something on the level with Coles in their prime.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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. Those huge natural salad bowls are Eden for them. Despite its wildness and dangers (keeping in mind that nearly every single of inch of Earth was once just as dangerous, if not more so), Africa is an Eden for human beings. That's why our entire race was born there, and it's why Africans remained primitive for time immemorial when left alone.

You’re right about this—no one wants to spend their life doing backbreaking farm labor if being a hunter gatherer or a pastoralist is on the table.

And, sure, it beggars belief that anyone would start smelting iron ore without having any earlier tradition of metalworking. Stone Age cultures work with metiorite iron whenever they can get their hands on it, but that’s already fit for purpose and just needs to be banged into shape. But, upon reflection, to get to smelting without ever bothering to work with copper or bronze is crazy. Why would anyone think ore contained anything valuable if they’d never had a Bronze Age? Google led me astray.
 

Blaine

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But, upon reflection, to get to smelting without ever bothering to work with copper or bronze is crazy. Why would anyone think ore contained anything valuable if they’d never had a Bronze Age? Google led me astray.

I considered mentioning copper and bronze, but I'd already written a novel, so I skipped it.

Intelligence is the great sacred human trait, the seat of our spirituality, the source of all our power and primacy, and no one wants to feel they're lacking it for any reason. That there are essentially different naturally-developed breeds of humans (as opposed to artificially-created breeds of domesticated animals) is a notion to be pushed away, redefined, and rejected. Christ knows I've had this conversation before here on the Codex. Height and build, distinct hair types, skin pigmentation and properties, susceptibility to maladies, physiological adaptations to high elevation or consuming fermented meat, natural athletic tendencies, and so on might starkly differ from race to race.

Intelligence, though? It's the same. No race has less or more of it than anyone else, period. Also, our inherent psychological tendencies are identical across all races.
 

Zarniwoop

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Blaine being a typical problematic racist imperialist ITT as usual.

Everyone knows that the reason why there's no evidence of any African civilization ever, is because the white devil destroyed it.

The proud gentleman-kangz of sub-saharan Africa were noble scholars, flying around in their jet cars and pondering the mysteries of the universe. That is, until the evil white man, despite having much inferior technology and being vastly outnumbered, brutally conquered and enslaved them all, literally like Hitler. Don't fall for far-right extremist "facts" or common sense" or "observable reality even today". These are all made up by Drumpf and the Russians.
 

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Why do you think it was called the BLACK death? There was no plague in Europe, it was a the proud warrior-kangz riding to retake their lands.
 

Roguey

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When Blaine says Africa he likely means Sub-Saharan Africa. North Africans are a different, lighter-skinned people. :M
 

FreeKaner

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Nubians and Ethiopians are not lightskinned, neither are West Africans where there has been iron-working dated to at least 2000 years. Saying "NUH UH Europeans bought those there because you see Europe had iron working BEFORE that!" is disingenuous at its best. Africa is not poor in iron and it had developed communities and states with military why wouldn't it have fucking iron working?

The more insidious argument is of course some tribals in southern central Africa somewhere didn't actually have iron working that means no one with skin pigmentation darker than that of a Greek Pharaoh could have worked iron because everyone knows entirety of Subsaharan Africa was one continuous civilisation that shared same technology group (Nigger, -95% research penalty, +25% to acceptance of slavery). Iron working isn't even that complex of a thing, nomadic tribes in Central Asia where iron quality is questionable were working iron. Honestly Americans who have vested interest in modern politics discussing history of Africa is so retarded.
 

fantadomat

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Iron working isn't even that complex of a thing, nomadic tribes in Central Asia where iron quality is questionable were working iron.
The same could be said about the wheel,yet the retarded American indians didn't come up with it. Looking in retrospect everything is easy because you know it. Do you think that someone just saw a shiny rock and decided to build a massive furnace that will be able to have the adequate heat to melt the shiny rock? Most of those things were found out by accidents.
 

FreeKaner

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Iron working isn't even that complex of a thing, nomadic tribes in Central Asia where iron quality is questionable were working iron.
The same could be said about the wheel,yet the retarded American indians didn't come up with it. Looking in retrospect everything is easy because you know it. Do you think that someone just saw a shiny rock and decided to build a massive furnace that will be able to have the adequate heat to melt the shiny rock? Most of those things were found out by accidents.

Mesoamericans had toys with wheels, they knew what a wheel was and how to make it. It was that they were mostly useless in type of environment they lived in, where they used llamas and people for transferring which proved better in landscape they were working on. Mesoamericans also had advanced agriculture techniques that could in a worse environment compared to Europe manage to feed more people. Technology IRL isn't a linear bar to fill to unlock next one. Moreover peoples that are isolated tend to not be part of cumulative technological advancements connected civilisations make (that is the 5 river civilisations of what later made "silkroad").
 

fantadomat

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Iron working isn't even that complex of a thing, nomadic tribes in Central Asia where iron quality is questionable were working iron.
The same could be said about the wheel,yet the retarded American indians didn't come up with it. Looking in retrospect everything is easy because you know it. Do you think that someone just saw a shiny rock and decided to build a massive furnace that will be able to have the adequate heat to melt the shiny rock? Most of those things were found out by accidents.

Mesoamericans had toys with wheels, they knew what a wheel was and how to make it. It was that they were mostly useless in type of environment they lived in, where they used llamas and people for transferring which proved better in landscape they were working on. Mesoamericans also had advanced agriculture techniques that could in a worse environment compared to Europe manage to feed more people. Technology IRL isn't a linear bar to fill to unlock next one. Moreover peoples that are isolated tend to not be part of cumulative technological advancements connected civilisations make (that is the 5 river civilisations of what later made "silkroad").
Are you trying to tell me that the whole of the Americas is jungles and mountains and that is why they didn't use the wheel?
:whatho:
Get help mate and stop reading sjw news that try to warp history.
 

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