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KickStarter Kingdom Come: Deliverance - Dan Vavra's medieval chad simulator

Paul_cz

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Jan 26, 2014
Messages
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So Smejki, there is some guy on twitter (armchair historian) who claims the KCD is, regardless of Warhorse's intentions, semifascist propaganda used by fascists to radicalize people, all because you didn't put roma gypsies and jews in it (I learned about his tweet because I follow Warhorse twitter account and whoever is in charge of that account "liked" the tweet by that guy, thus inserting it in my timeline).
He listed these sources as evidence that there were roma and jews in central bohemia back then and should have been included in the game:
https://www.amazon.com/Historical-Dictionary-Gypsies-Romanies-Kenrick/dp/0810834448
https://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/bohemia/bohemia.html

So I was wondering, did you guys know about/check these sources or had different ones that said otherwise? and what do you think in general about this?
 

cvv

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Afaik back then common folks hated Jews and pogromed them every chance they got. So if a few Jews lived in Rattay or Sassau Warhorse would have to turn most NPCs into stark raving hitlerites to be historically authentic. Not exactly an appealing prospect I'd guess.

As for gypsies they would've been a) extremely rare so why represent them at all and b) even more hated than the Jews.

Not many great choices here.
 
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RNGsus

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The game isn't about jews and gypsies, why would they be in a game that has nothing to do with them?
 

Efe

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Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
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it claims to be historically accurate yet when it isnt accurate "game isnt about them".
 
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RNGsus

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it claims to be historically accurate yet when it isnt accurate "game isnt about them".
Historically accurate as far as the scope of the game is concerned, which doesn't include jews and gypsies, or a 1:1 scale of the real world. Deal with it.

Of course you won't be satisfied until every npc drops his pants.
 

Paul_cz

Arcane
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Messages
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Paul_cz

Let it go.

Let us not bring that degenerate crap into this thread anymore.

Just, let it go. It's not worth it.
I don't disagree, but I am still curious. I know if I was making a game and was getting accused of creating fascist recruiting tool, I would not want to let that stand.
 

Funposter

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Joined
Oct 19, 2018
Messages
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Location
Australia
So Smejki, there is some guy on twitter (armchair historian) who claims the KCD is, regardless of Warhorse's intentions, semifascist propaganda used by fascists to radicalize people, all because you didn't put roma gypsies and jews in it (I learned about his tweet because I follow Warhorse twitter account and whoever is in charge of that account "liked" the tweet by that guy, thus inserting it in my timeline).
He listed these sources as evidence that there were roma and jews in central bohemia back then and should have been included in the game:
https://www.amazon.com/Historical-Dictionary-Gypsies-Romanies-Kenrick/dp/0810834448
https://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/bohemia/bohemia.html

So I was wondering, did you guys know about/check these sources or had different ones that said otherwise? and what do you think in general about this?

The in-game codex actually has an entry about Jews, noting that the vast majority of them lived in Prague (Jews in major urban centres? Get outta town). If it helps, just imagine that any merchant who rips you off is Jewish.
 

moleman

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604
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Birthplace of the headless horseman
Afaik back then common folks hated Jews and pogromed them every chance they got. So if a few Jews lived in Rattay or Sassau Warhorse would have to turn most NPCs into stark raving hitlerites to be historically authentic. Not exactly an appealing prospect I'd guess.

As for gypsies they would've been a) extremely rare so why represent them at all and b) even more hated than the Jews.

Not many great choices here.

Correct.
Moreover, that whole "controversy" was based off the perception of some game journos of Vavras persona.
If Warhorse had put Jews in the game they would have found something else to bitch about.

Even more so if Warhorse had tried to represent tensions between Jews and the Czech poplulation.
Anyone remember the beginning of the game where you had the option to throw shit at the German dude's house?
Now imagine the guy had been Jewish.

The echo of that outcry could still be heard today.

Not including Jews in the game but having a Codex entry about them was the best decision they could make.
 

Smejki

Larian Studios, ex-Warhorse
Developer
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
707
Location
Belgistan
So Smejki, there is some guy on twitter (armchair historian) who claims the KCD is, regardless of Warhorse's intentions, semifascist propaganda used by fascists to radicalize people, all because you didn't put roma gypsies and jews in it (I learned about his tweet because I follow Warhorse twitter account and whoever is in charge of that account "liked" the tweet by that guy, thus inserting it in my timeline).
He listed these sources as evidence that there were roma and jews in central bohemia back then and should have been included in the game:
https://www.amazon.com/Historical-Dictionary-Gypsies-Romanies-Kenrick/dp/0810834448
https://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/bohemia/bohemia.html

So I was wondering, did you guys know about/check these sources or had different ones that said otherwise? and what do you think in general about this?
tl;dr version
giphy.gif

The person is right that Jews were present in vast numbers within Bohemia. We wanted to portray that but eventually ran into several walls. Primarily budget, because a properly developed Jewish community would require a lot of unique assets. Secondarily, we learned that that Jews resided predominantly in towns and cities with certain properties and none of the KCD settlements fit the criteria.

Side note: Several members of the team are/were Jewish or affiliated to the Jewish community. Think of Vávra anything you like but he certainly is not an antisemite.
Side side note: I was hired after I wrote a concept for a quest which was centered around Jews and their struggles in medieval times.

The person is right that Romanis/Gypsies probably already roamed the lands for several decades in 1403. We had it researched and were primarily concerned whether they were still largely a mystery to the locals or a common sight. Well, 1403 seems like the time where Romanis were still in the phase of gaining notoriety. This presented an interesting challenge because we only know how the relationship between the Romani and the local populace looked like much later. Anyway, we did entertain the idea of having them in the game. Some quests were proposed and developed into a draft version. Nor did they fit within the core story. We would implement them only for the sake of inclusion which nobody would be against since, you know, they were historically present in significant enough numbers. But again, budget. Jews had much higher priority and they had to be dropped, so...

Side note: I remember Romani being integrated into the story of Assassin's Creed Revelations (the Istanbul one). It sucked ass. It read like trivia from first two paragraphs of Wikipedia article about the ethnic group. A Gypsy lady is leading you somewhere telling you "We are Romani. They call us gypsy because they think we came from Egypt. LOL." You're an Italian in Turkish Instanbul (by that time for sure still heavily Greek) in early 1500s. The term Gypsy is purely English language problem. I'm not sure Gypsies already reached England by that time. Also Roma/ni is a relative neologism. And then you get their wheel-y logo on the map as a marker. And that's the end. I'd rather have no representation than this half-assed hack-job.

The person is right that these groups should have been in the game, particularly Jews, and that game would have benefited from their presence.

The person is an utter idiot, though, if they claim that this makes the game in any way fascist. If anything it's a bit whitewashed, in placed by mistake, in other places by necessity. No game has ever managed to portray reality in its entirety and we would not be able to do so even if we had GTA5-level budget and manpower.
It could be argued that some fascist or any other hateful group could use the game to support their idiotic and hateful narrative. Like, some crazy Pakistani could use Civilization to warn against India nuclear program. But I have yet to see that happen.

The game has more flaws, representation-wise. There are no kids, no disabled, no seniors. No Italians, no Poles, no Turks, no French. No crossbows, no flails, no firearms. Dozens of crucial animals are missing. Many crucial common crafts and occupations are not portrayed, and a lot of those that made it into the game are extremely over-simplified or stink of ahistoricity (like the way bakers worked in KCD). The Czech-German tensions are underdeveloped, the complete absence of any humanization of Cumans is a sorry oversight and missed opportunity. Many of the key characters lack any spouse which is hilarious when you think about it in terms of medieval society for more than a second. Some aspects are outright wtf bordering with fantasy tropes (fairytale-ish herbalists). Dozens upon dozens of common period-characteristic phenomena are not portrayed in the game. Some are only hinted at. And so on. There is a lot to criticize when one wants to scrutinize the "as accurate as possible" claim. Yeah, "as possible" leaves a lot of wiggle room but it should never be an excuse for lackluster delivery on that promise. Still, you can always only approximate reality, for it is too large to grasp, let alone replicate.
 
Last edited:

Smejki

Larian Studios, ex-Warhorse
Developer
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
707
Location
Belgistan
The game isn't about jews and gypsies, why would they be in a game that has nothing to do with them?
Because they were inherent part of medieval society in HRE and shaped it heavily. I'd argue the things that are missing most from the game are (in order of importance):
1. Kids
2. Tons of pregnant or infant-nursing women
3. Extensive families and deeper social relationships
4. Jews
5. Heavier emphasis on agriculture and expanded livestock

Any of these would heavily alter what stories we would write and how you would perceive the depicted society and social phenomena overall.
 
Last edited:

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
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The lack of children and more animals did make an impression on me but I didn't think about the portraying of families. Overall, very interesting. As for the jews and other minorities, I attributed their absense to the fact that they would stand out too much if included in small settlements like those in the game, but are supposedly found in the capital.
 

Efe

Erudite
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
2,597
if only paul could formulate answers like these instead of throwing a hissy fit.
the guy is like a walking negative pr billboard
 

Paul_cz

Arcane
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Messages
1,996
So Smejki, there is some guy on twitter (armchair historian) who claims the KCD is, regardless of Warhorse's intentions, semifascist propaganda used by fascists to radicalize people, all because you didn't put roma gypsies and jews in it (I learned about his tweet because I follow Warhorse twitter account and whoever is in charge of that account "liked" the tweet by that guy, thus inserting it in my timeline).
He listed these sources as evidence that there were roma and jews in central bohemia back then and should have been included in the game:
https://www.amazon.com/Historical-Dictionary-Gypsies-Romanies-Kenrick/dp/0810834448
https://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/bohemia/bohemia.html

So I was wondering, did you guys know about/check these sources or had different ones that said otherwise? and what do you think in general about this?
tl;dr version
giphy.gif

The person is right that Jews were present in vast numbers within Bohemia. We wanted to portray that but eventually ran into several walls. Primarily budget, because a properly developed Jewish community would require a lot of unique assets. Secondarily, we learned that that Jews resided predominantly in towns and cities with certain properties and none of the KCD settlements fit the criteria.

Side note: Several members of the team are/were Jewish or affiliated to the Jewish community. Think of Vávra anything you like but he certainly is not an antisemite.
Side side note: I was hired after I wrote a concept for a quest which was centered around Jews and their struggles in medieval times.

The person is right that Romanis/Gypsies probably already roamed the lands for several decades in 1403. We had it researched and were primarily concerned whether they were still largely a mystery to the locals or a common sight. Well, 1403 seems like the time where Romanis were still in the phase of gaining notoriety. This presented an interesting challenge because we only know how the relationship between the Romani and the local populace looked like much later. Anyway, we did entertain the idea of having them in the game. Some quests were proposed and developed into a draft version but we ran into the same budgetary constraints. Nor did they fit within the core story. We would implement them only for the sake of inclusion which nobody would be against since, you know, they were historically present in significant enough numbers. But again, budget. Jews had much higher priority and they had to be dropped, so...

Side note: I remember Romani being integrated into the story of Assassin's Creed Revelations (the Istanbul one). It sucked ass. It read like trivia from first two paragraphs of Wikipedia article about the ethnic group. A Gypsy lady is leading you somewhere telling you "We are Romani. They call us gypsy because they think we came from Egypt. LOL." You're an Italian in Turkish Instanbul (by that time for sure still heavily Greek) in early 1500s. The term Gypsy is purely English language problem. I'm not sure Gypsies already reached England by that time. And then you get their logo on the map. And that's the end. I'd rather have no representation than this half-assed hack-job.

The person is right that these groups should have been in the game, particularly Jews, and that game would have benefited from their presence.

The person is an utter idiot for claiming that this makes the game in any way fascist. If anything it's a bit whitewashed, in placed by mistake, in other places by necessity. No game has ever managed to portray reality in its entirety and we would not be able to do so even if we had GTA5-level budget and manpower.
It could be argued that some fascist or any other hateful group could use the game to support their idiotic and hateful narrative. But I have yet to see that happen.

The game has more flaws, representation-wise. There are no kids, no disabled, no seniors. No Italians, no Poles, no Turks, no French. No crossbows, no flails, no firearms. Dozens of crucial animals are missing. Many crucial common crafts and occupations are not portrayed, and a lot of those that made it into the game are extremely over-simplified or stink of ahistoricity (like the way bakers worked in KCD). The Czech-German tensions are underdeveloped, the complete absence of any humanization of Cumans is a sorry oversight and missed opportunity. Many of the key characters lack any spouse which is hilarious when you think about it in terms of medieval society for more than a second. Some aspects are outright wtf bordering with fantasy tropes (fairytale-ish herbalists). Dozens upon dozens of common period-characteristic phenomena are not portrayed in the game. Some are only hinted at. And so on. There is a lot to criticize when one wants to scrutinize the "as accurate as possible" claim. Yeah, "as possible" leaves a lot of wiggle room but it should never be an excuse for lackluster delivery on that promise. Still, you can always only approximate reality, for it is too large to grasp, let alone replicate.

Thanks, appreciated the write-up.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,164
The game is fascist because it is not anti-west and anti-white. You guys need to learn how those people operate. Trying to show how "not" racist Vavra is will always be a waste of time because the problem is that he is not using his game to push a Marxist, globalist agenda that seeks to undermine the dominant group (as defined by the modern credo of cultural Marxists) in order to promote this satanic, formless world order:



Even if the game were to include some minorities it still wouldn't satisfy those people because that's actually besides the point. It's not about "representing" the margin, it's about destroying the norm.
 
Last edited:

Mikeal

Arcane
Joined
Dec 19, 2016
Messages
3,446
Location
Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
tl;dr version
giphy.gif

The person is right that Jews were present in vast numbers within Bohemia. We wanted to portray that but eventually ran into several walls. Primarily budget, because a properly developed Jewish community would require a lot of unique assets. Secondarily, we learned that that Jews resided predominantly in towns and cities with certain properties and none of the KCD settlements fit the criteria.

Side note: Several members of the team are/were Jewish or affiliated to the Jewish community. Think of Vávra anything you like but he certainly is not an antisemite.
Side side note: I was hired after I wrote a concept for a quest which was centered around Jews and their struggles in medieval times.

The person is right that Romanis/Gypsies probably already roamed the lands for several decades in 1403. We had it researched and were primarily concerned whether they were still largely a mystery to the locals or a common sight. Well, 1403 seems like the time where Romanis were still in the phase of gaining notoriety. This presented an interesting challenge because we only know how the relationship between the Romani and the local populace looked like much later. Anyway, we did entertain the idea of having them in the game. Some quests were proposed and developed into a draft version but we ran into the same budgetary constraints. Nor did they fit within the core story. We would implement them only for the sake of inclusion which nobody would be against since, you know, they were historically present in significant enough numbers. But again, budget. Jews had much higher priority and they had to be dropped, so...

Side note: I remember Romani being integrated into the story of Assassin's Creed Revelations (the Istanbul one). It sucked ass. It read like trivia from first two paragraphs of Wikipedia article about the ethnic group. A Gypsy lady is leading you somewhere telling you "We are Romani. They call us gypsy because they think we came from Egypt. LOL." You're an Italian in Turkish Instanbul (by that time for sure still heavily Greek) in early 1500s. The term Gypsy is purely English language problem. I'm not sure Gypsies already reached England by that time. And then you get their logo on the map. And that's the end. I'd rather have no representation than this half-assed hack-job.

The person is right that these groups should have been in the game, particularly Jews, and that game would have benefited from their presence.

The person is an utter idiot for claiming that this makes the game in any way fascist. If anything it's a bit whitewashed, in placed by mistake, in other places by necessity. No game has ever managed to portray reality in its entirety and we would not be able to do so even if we had GTA5-level budget and manpower.
It could be argued that some fascist or any other hateful group could use the game to support their idiotic and hateful narrative. But I have yet to see that happen.

The game has more flaws, representation-wise. There are no kids, no disabled, no seniors. No Italians, no Poles, no Turks, no French. No crossbows, no flails, no firearms. Dozens of crucial animals are missing. Many crucial common crafts and occupations are not portrayed, and a lot of those that made it into the game are extremely over-simplified or stink of ahistoricity (like the way bakers worked in KCD). The Czech-German tensions are underdeveloped, the complete absence of any humanization of Cumans is a sorry oversight and missed opportunity. Many of the key characters lack any spouse which is hilarious when you think about it in terms of medieval society for more than a second. Some aspects are outright wtf bordering with fantasy tropes (fairytale-ish herbalists). Dozens upon dozens of common period-characteristic phenomena are not portrayed in the game. Some are only hinted at. And so on. There is a lot to criticize when one wants to scrutinize the "as accurate as possible" claim. Yeah, "as possible" leaves a lot of wiggle room but it should never be an excuse for lackluster delivery on that promise. Still, you can always only approximate reality, for it is too large to grasp, let alone replicate.

:dead:
 

HoboForEternity

sunset tequila
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
So Smejki, there is some guy on twitter (armchair historian) who claims the KCD is, regardless of Warhorse's intentions, semifascist propaganda used by fascists to radicalize people, all because you didn't put roma gypsies and jews in it (I learned about his tweet because I follow Warhorse twitter account and whoever is in charge of that account "liked" the tweet by that guy, thus inserting it in my timeline).
He listed these sources as evidence that there were roma and jews in central bohemia back then and should have been included in the game:
https://www.amazon.com/Historical-Dictionary-Gypsies-Romanies-Kenrick/dp/0810834448
https://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/bohemia/bohemia.html

So I was wondering, did you guys know about/check these sources or had different ones that said otherwise? and what do you think in general about this?
tl;dr version
giphy.gif

The person is right that Jews were present in vast numbers within Bohemia. We wanted to portray that but eventually ran into several walls. Primarily budget, because a properly developed Jewish community would require a lot of unique assets. Secondarily, we learned that that Jews resided predominantly in towns and cities with certain properties and none of the KCD settlements fit the criteria.

Side note: Several members of the team are/were Jewish or affiliated to the Jewish community. Think of Vávra anything you like but he certainly is not an antisemite.
Side side note: I was hired after I wrote a concept for a quest which was centered around Jews and their struggles in medieval times.

The person is right that Romanis/Gypsies probably already roamed the lands for several decades in 1403. We had it researched and were primarily concerned whether they were still largely a mystery to the locals or a common sight. Well, 1403 seems like the time where Romanis were still in the phase of gaining notoriety. This presented an interesting challenge because we only know how the relationship between the Romani and the local populace looked like much later. Anyway, we did entertain the idea of having them in the game. Some quests were proposed and developed into a draft version but we ran into the same budgetary constraints. Nor did they fit within the core story. We would implement them only for the sake of inclusion which nobody would be against since, you know, they were historically present in significant enough numbers. But again, budget. Jews had much higher priority and they had to be dropped, so...

Side note: I remember Romani being integrated into the story of Assassin's Creed Revelations (the Istanbul one). It sucked ass. It read like trivia from first two paragraphs of Wikipedia article about the ethnic group. A Gypsy lady is leading you somewhere telling you "We are Romani. They call us gypsy because they think we came from Egypt. LOL." You're an Italian in Turkish Instanbul (by that time for sure still heavily Greek) in early 1500s. The term Gypsy is purely English language problem. I'm not sure Gypsies already reached England by that time. And then you get their logo on the map. And that's the end. I'd rather have no representation than this half-assed hack-job.

The person is right that these groups should have been in the game, particularly Jews, and that game would have benefited from their presence.

The person is an utter idiot for claiming that this makes the game in any way fascist. If anything it's a bit whitewashed, in placed by mistake, in other places by necessity. No game has ever managed to portray reality in its entirety and we would not be able to do so even if we had GTA5-level budget and manpower.
It could be argued that some fascist or any other hateful group could use the game to support their idiotic and hateful narrative. But I have yet to see that happen.

The game has more flaws, representation-wise. There are no kids, no disabled, no seniors. No Italians, no Poles, no Turks, no French. No crossbows, no flails, no firearms. Dozens of crucial animals are missing. Many crucial common crafts and occupations are not portrayed, and a lot of those that made it into the game are extremely over-simplified or stink of ahistoricity (like the way bakers worked in KCD). The Czech-German tensions are underdeveloped, the complete absence of any humanization of Cumans is a sorry oversight and missed opportunity. Many of the key characters lack any spouse which is hilarious when you think about it in terms of medieval society for more than a second. Some aspects are outright wtf bordering with fantasy tropes (fairytale-ish herbalists). Dozens upon dozens of common period-characteristic phenomena are not portrayed in the game. Some are only hinted at. And so on. There is a lot to criticize when one wants to scrutinize the "as accurate as possible" claim. Yeah, "as possible" leaves a lot of wiggle room but it should never be an excuse for lackluster delivery on that promise. Still, you can always only approximate reality, for it is too large to grasp, let alone replicate.
you know despite the self admitted flaws, it is still the best portrayal of medieval society in videogames, and one of the best in all media that is ever made. i hope you can expand most if not all of it in the next game, and you should be proud of what you have accomplished in vanilla kcd alone
 
Self-Ejected

RNGsus

Self-Ejected
Joined
Apr 29, 2011
Messages
8,106
The game isn't about jews and gypsies, why would they be in a game that has nothing to do with them?
Because they were inherent part of medieval society in HRE and shaped it heavily.

Any of these would heavily alter what stories we would write and how you would perceive the depicted society and social phenomena overall.
You've basically said the story Warhorse told wouldn't have been told if you hadn't told it. Which is a given.
 

Darkzone

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Messages
2,323
The person is right that Jews were present in vast numbers within Bohemia. We wanted to portray that but eventually ran into several walls. Primarily budget, because a properly developed Jewish community would require a lot of unique assets. Secondarily, we learned that that Jews resided predominantly in towns and cities with certain properties and none of the KCD settlements fit the criteria.
Not so vast as the use of the term vast implies. Not so vast as the use of the term vast implies. Only later in the 17-18th Century, due to an influx from polish and hungarian jews the numbers have quite significantly increased. The numbers rose even up to 2.7% in 1935 (Weimarer Republik they were below the 1%), but before 1920 they were around 1.4% of the population, despite extensive migration from Poland in the 19th Century caused by polish uprisings against the 3 european powers and inherent economic fall (when Galicia became the poorest region in Austria if not in entire Europe).
Overall the east ward movemement of the Jews and seeking places of protection brought them from Spain to France and to the western parts of HRE, where they adopted the german language ( in the 12th Century, later it became Yiddish ). And from there the were driven out (due to pogroms, caused by the Crusaders in 1096 and by the black death epidemics in 1349-1351) further east, mainly into Poland (first two waves, the third wave followed after 1492 from Spain).
In Poland and Bohemia the Jews were since the 11th Century, but their numbers were to small to be even recognised (here i have to add that the first act to make Jews and Christians equal were made in 1264 in Kalisz (Statute of Kalisz)). But Kalisz was in this time an important center for trade and one of the richest cities in Poland.
So to speak around 3 form 1000 NPCs could be Jews in the best case and even then they would be barely recognisable, (wearing perhaps the Kippah and trousers for desticition) despite Maimonides forbidding the emulation of gentiles dresses.

And the thing with the Romani is even more retarded, because the first dated writen evidence of them is from the year 1423 in north east Slovakia in Spis (around 460km away from Prag and 230km from Olomouc) and they were thought as spies for the Ottomans, which has led to pogroms in 1427 against them. So probably they were found at least 30 years later in Bohemia and even in 1423 the people knew nothing about them, which means categorically that they couldn't be around for decades in Bohemia in 1403, since they migrated north-west wards and not south-east wards.
Btw.: In Poland they are noted for the first time around 1509 and Poland is much closer (Krakòw 130 km, Nowy Targ 70 km) to Spis Castle in Spišské Podhradie than Bohemia.

Therefore this is probably not correct:
The person is right that Romanis/Gypsies probably already roamed the lands for several decades in 1403.... The person is right that these groups should have been in the game, particularly Jews, and that game would have benefited from their presence.

But this is quite correct:
The person is an utter idiot,
 
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cvv

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
18,075
Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Codex+ Now Streaming!
I'm not an expert on modding but the scale of those tools seems p. mindblowing to my layman eyes. You can build your own full-on open-world RPG with those.

Very generous giving away Skald. This tool looks complex enough to be commercially viable.

Also how the fuck is Crytek ok with them releasing the entire Cryengine toolkit?
 

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