Development Info KotOR GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLD!

[Volourn]

More strategic than NWN? I seriosuly doubt that. From, what I've seen, KOTOR gives you less options in a fight. From what I hear it's basically have a lighgt sabre and crack some ehads. All signs point to combat NOT being KOTOR's strong point.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

From what I hear it's basically have a lighgt sabre and crack some ehads.

You can do the same damn thing in NWN, sans light sabre of course. It all depends on what class you play and how you play them. You have plenty of combat options in KOTOR, just not right from the start. You have to build up your character and slowly you will find yourself getting more and more options to utilize during combat.

 

[Volourn]

Huh? You have disarm, knockdown, parry, callesd shots, and a host of other combat abilities in NWN. Do you have such variant combat abilities KOTOR? Yes, or no. Simple question. A fighter who just selects attack enemy in NWN isn't a smart fighter, and sucks and should be thrown into the dump of dead fighters.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Huh? You have disarm, knockdown, parry, callesd shots, and a host of other combat abilities in NWN. Do you have such variant combat abilities KOTOR? Yes, or no. Simple question. A fighter who just selects attack enemy in NWN isn't a smart fighter, and sucks and should be thrown into the dump of dead fighters.

I do realize that, but I am just saying it can be done. Parries in KOTOR are automatic, disarm is basically a force power and you have to play a bit before you get access to it, knockdown as well. Like I said, it takes a bit for the strategy options to show, but not too long. Most of those abilities you mention above are covered with force powers. That's the way the game operates though. You are, after all, a jedi. You just don't know it at the beginning of the game. But I don't wanna say anymore as the rest would be major spoilers.
So, to answer the simple question: Yes. But realize that some of the options in NWN are implemented in different ways with KoTOR. They are there though.

Oh, and as far as parry being automatic, it's just one of the many animations used when an opponent, or you, rolls a miss on the dice.

 

[Azael]

It's tactical combat, not strategic, unless you move around divisions of stormtroopers of course.[/besserwisser mode]

 

[Jed]

Clausewitz is rolling in his grave...

 

[Volourn]

Tatics then. I always get those mixed up.

You need a force power to knock down your enemy? Weird. I thought the forced of being hit by someone strong could do that. And parry is not the same thing as a defesne. There is parry than there is parry.

 

[triCritical]

Re: Having an open minded aproach to life is fun. try it for

Oh that's lush. So you would rather have a game that was fun, but made no sense at all because it didn't have a plot to it? I'll give you the graphics part. Those are never important to me as well. But story is definitely up there with gameplay and has a huge impact on ambience. I play games to have fun, yes, but I also play them to get totally immersed in some story. And that adds to the ambience in more ways than good graphics can anyday.

Well I never said a game should not have a plot. As a matter a fact there are very few games that do not have a plot. The original donkey kong had a plot, very similar to King Kong's. Space Invaders had a plot, very similar to every alien invasion movie.

Maybe some distinctions need to be made. A plot device is the motivation for the characters to actually play and undergo the mechanics of the game itself. For instance, the plot device of Fallout was to get Water chips. It was simple and it motivated the action of a character leaving the vault, the rest is up to you. Was there story? Well there was some background story to the war found in holodisk. There were subplots, and back stories to the different locales and finally there was the grand plot being drawn up by the master, and there was a seperate story about his rise to power and operations.

How is this different from a story driven game. Well my problem with games dictated by story, is that the story is already written. In Final Fantasy 3-11 Square has written a book, or story, which contains some plots and sub plots. However, the story is already written and you are subjected to follow along the path written by the developers, which are typically IMO not good. Bioware games are the same way. In Baldurs Gate, Sarevok's plan had to come to fruition in exactly the way they intended it too, it was almost non-sensical, this is not a good design codec.

I guess the difference between a good CRPG and a story driven Bioware CRPG, is that in a good CRPG like Fallout I write the story, in a bad one like BG2 BIoware writes the story. Hence, if a game says its has a good story ala BG2, I normally will stray away, since I like roleplaying not acting out what the developers had intended us to act out.

As for the combat, I do not really know how this differs from any of the other previous Bioware combat game. The controls are simply point and click, subjected to the strategic planning of your character. I'm sorry but I just don't agree with that philosophy of combat design. In Fallout, I could actually manage the combat at a micro level. In Morrowind I could choose three types of attacks, engage in tactical movement as well as determine the strength of my attack all based off stats. So its just not a TB vs. RT thing either. In ToEE, there was so much control over what your characters could do in combat, that it was actually closer to a tactical combat game, then a CRPG, which is not a bad thing these days. Oh well, maybe I will download the demo to explain to you a bit better what I mean.

 

[Volourn]

Bah. All you do is poiunt and click in TOEE as well. There are all sorst of things you can do in NWN. It's not just about stats. Many combat options to be had eeven for fighters.

 

[triCritical]

Bah. All you do is poiunt and click in TOEE as well. There are all sorst of things you can do in NWN. It's not just about stats. Many combat options to be had eeven for fighters.

You just point and click in Fallout too. Your full of yourself if you don't see the countless more types of tactical options a party can use in combat. Hell, in ToEE I can actually play fighters that act differently in combat. I couldn't in any Bioware based engine. But go ahead and continue to lie to yourself. After you lied about me saying that the Time top 10 list was da bomb.

 

[Volourn]

Huh? There are many ways to play a fighter in NWN. It's obvious you haven't played the game more than five minutes. That's cool. If you are so single midned to play one type of fighter then that's your problem; not the game's.

 

[triCritical]

Huh? There are many ways to play a fighter in NWN. It's obvious you haven't played the game more than five minutes. That's cool. If you are so single midned to play one type of fighter then that's your problem; not the game's.

There really isn't. You have to tank it, or play the mods. The fact that the game is designed like Diablo and its a single character without MP gives you very limited tactical options especially in chapter 1. Sure you can play a bit defensive, but unless you are playing MP its pretty useless, since the odds are against you considering the mobs you fight. BTW I played NWN for quite some time, not just 5 minutes. I played a Barby, Cleric/fighter, and an acrobat fighter (an oxymoron in NWN ) so that is why it is the character I normally us in my examples. IWD2 IMO had more tactical options for fighters then NWN, although the game was so well balanced that it didn't feel like my character were improving. And ToEE just blew me away at how many different types of fighters I could make, it was really like Tabletop DnD. Kudo's where it belongs. Don't worry, I have already said that NWN is the best MP CRPG that is not a MMORPG, but I still think the game itself sucks. And yes the only fun I did have on it was playing MP with coworkers, so slightly biased.

 

[Sammael]

Funny, my main gripe about NWN is the lack of a coherent story. The Diabloesque combat isn't that bad, it's just that there's too much of it.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

You need a force power to knock down your enemy? Weird.

It should be noted you need a feat to knock down your enemy in NWN.

 

[Volourn]

Tri, ypu don't have to tank it. That comment shows you ahven't really played the game - neither OC, or player mods for any length of mods.

I would take a high intelligence fighter with various combat feats then some lame straight up tank with a large weapon.

There are so many ways to play a fighter in NWN, and it's plain silly to say otherwise. In fact, I'd go as far as to say, playing a barbarian type character makes your character, in the end, a weak melee character; not strong. Dishing out damage doesn't help when you've lost your weapon, been knocked down, have your movement slowed, or your attack lowered. And, you can do this in sp, or mp. A high defesnive character is great to play. Why? Unlike a character that doesn't focus on defense; he doesn't have to worry about getting hit all the time. NWN alows you to play all types of fighters just like in pnp. What kind of fighter does TOEE offer that NWN can't. And, no, I'm not arguing that NWN has more comb options (ie. 5' step etc.); but it surely does allow fighters to vary. Greatly.

RP: You are comparing a force psedo magic power to an actual combat feat. If you are using the force in KOTOR (which all PC characters eventually do); you are no longer a straight up fighter.

 

[Lemon]

Funny, my main gripe about NWN is the lack of a coherent story. The Diabloesque combat isn't that bad, it's just that there's too much of it.

There has to be another draw, Anachronox had stellar humor which really did make up for the simplistic combat engine.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

I play a game to immerse myself into the story, but I also play to have fun. If the game has a good story and is fun, chances are I will like it. No matter the genre. It's as simple as that.

Sure, I like tactics and strategy and whatnot just as much as the next guy, but it's not all that I crave either. KoTOR is a fun game with an engaging story that has some wicked twists and turns in it. The important word though in that last sentence is FUN.

Now, if the combat is too simplified and that takes the fun out of a game for you, well then I guess not much can be done about it. There are alot of games out there with simplified combat that I still manage to enjoy because they have other things to make up for it. Like Lemon pointed out with Anachronox. That was a fun game, but combat wasn't that indebt.

I guess my point here is that KoTOR is a wonderful game. Great writing, great voice acting, nice dialogue options throughout, and the combat, while not as indept as TOEE, is still decent enough that if you wanna micromanage, you can. It all boils down to the fact that the game is fun, IMO. And that's what's most important.

BTW, NWN's dull ass story definitely took out the fun. I play the game though because there are alot of beautiful fan created modules that have a deep story and put the fun into the game. It's just not one of my favorite RPGs. KoTOR is.

Again, this is all my opinion though. I am merely sharing it so that hopefully someone will give KoTOR a try and find that they actually like it. Even if BIO made it.

 

[triCritical]

^The problem is that I don't play games for stories. I play games because they offer provocative gameplay and ambient elements. Believe it or not this is whats fun for me. If the catch for a game is a story, I will surely be bored, its just not good enough for me and is most definately the drawback in David Gaider's design philosophy. Essentially create and develop characters rather then making more opurtunities to play a role.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

^The problem is that I don't play games for stories. I play games because they offer provocative gameplay and ambient elements. Believe it or not this is whats fun for me. If the catch for a game is a story, I will surely be bored, its just not good enough for me and is most definately the drawback in David Gaider's design philosophy. Essentially create and develop characters rather then making more opurtunities to play a role.

Then why even play RPGs at all? That just doesn't make sense. If I don't want a story, I'll play some droll FPS or side-scroller for that matter. A good story is essential to any RPG, unless of course you play the rogue-likes, but I don't consider them true RPGs, just watered down action/rpg wannabes. Making and RPG without a good story is like making pumpkin pie without pumpkin.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Some FPSs have stories.

 

[Astromarine]

There is NOTHING watered down about ADOM or Angband. You silly punk.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Some FPSs have stories.

Didn't claim that ALL FPS' don't. Just said some. Sure they might have a backstory, but that's about it. No real advancement of plot beyond "You killed all the monsters and escaped the evil domain of the great flamboozle. Huzzah."

System Shock 2 is what a good FPS should be like in my opinion. And I don't mean the rpg element either. Thief and Undying are other good examples. There are more, but there's just as many shallow ones as well.

There is NOTHING watered down about ADOM or Angband. You silly punk.

Never heard of them. Well, maybe ADOM, but I never played them. I tended to shy away from rogue-likes after some of the ones I've dealt with. Just not my bag of tricks, I guess. I'll be sure to at least give those two a try though.

And while I might be silly, and I might be a punk, I am in no way a silly punk.

 

[Greenskin13]

Never heard of them. Well, maybe ADOM, but I never played them. I tended to shy away from rogue-likes after some of the ones I've dealt with. Just not my bag of tricks, I guess. I'll be sure to at least give those two a try though.

I prefer SLASH'EM for my roguelikes. The light atmosphere makes it easier for me to accept the unseemingly constant and early deaths of my PCs.

 

[triCritical]

^The problem is that I don't play games for stories. I play games because they offer provocative gameplay and ambient elements. Believe it or not this is whats fun for me. If the catch for a game is a story, I will surely be bored, its just not good enough for me and is most definately the drawback in David Gaider's design philosophy. Essentially create and develop characters rather then making more opurtunities to play a role.

Then why even play RPGs at all? That just doesn't make sense. If I don't want a story, I'll play some droll FPS or side-scroller for that matter. A good story is essential to any RPG, unless of course you play the rogue-likes, but I don't consider them true RPGs, just watered down action/rpg wannabes. Making and RPG without a good story is like making pumpkin pie without pumpkin.

CRPG historically are not story driven. Fallout the greates CRPG of all time is not story driven. Games like MIght and Magic and Wizardry were great CRPG's that gave a wonderful feeling of a party based level up adventure.

IMO there are two kind of CRPG's action based hack and slashes like ToEE and roleplaying CRPG's like Morrowind and Fallout. Bioware does not of these right. They don't let you play a role and they don't do combat right. You have to do something right. I think Bioware looked to Square for the success of their CRPG's and decided they wanted to make FInal Fantasy ripoffs.

I am afraid, that you are either new to CRPG's, or have not played very many of them. But Bioware CRPG's are hardly the norm. And since there are sooooooo few of them I feel that CRPG's are no longer cost affective unless they appeal to people like you who do not really like CRPG's.

 

[Volourn]

Huh? Youa re simply wrong. There are more than two types of role-playing games. PSt is story driven; I guess that isn't a rpg, and Fallout was mostd efinitely storyd riven. Without the overall story; you wouldn't even leave Vault 13 in the first palce. And, the BIO games mostd efinitely allow yuou to playa role. If you can't in them; that's your weakness; not the games'. I like how you qualify a game like TOEE a rpg; but not the BGs. That just shows what kind of a joke your "opinion" truly is.

I am afraid that you are either new to CRPGs, or have not played that many; but you obviously prove again you don't know what youa re talking about. I think the problem is that to you turn base combat = role-playing. Talk about a lame definition.