Development Info KotOR GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLD!

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I think that the term "story-driven" usually defines a CRPG which imposes the story on you. BG2 was definetely story-driven: no matter what you did, or tried to, it'd all go the same way, with microscopic changes. Its purpose was to just shove a story on players. Unfortunately, the same happened with PS:T, as it was also story-driven. In fact, it was both story-driven and character-driven in the sense it all revolved around the main character, the PC. Fallout isn't story-driven. Its a CRPG that, like so many others out there, has an overal plot that motions you, or conditions you to do something. Out of several reasons, one of the main reasons as to why is isn't story-driven is that the story isn't imposed on you, and that it actually changes according to what you do.

 

[triCritical]

PSt is story driven;

PS:T is the main reason why I didn't want Avellone working on FO3. PS:T is a great adventure game, and subpar RPG.

Without the overall story; you wouldn't even leave Vault 13 in the first palce.

I guess you don't know what encompasses a story and what defines a plot. Jeezus, why I am always subjected to debating with people that don't know the most obvious things.

I can make a story about my drive to work and how I used my volvo supercharger to cut off the evil SUV. Does it have a plot? What was my motivation? Was there a theme? Was my actions motivated by a history or a backstory? I mean before you want to bring up stupid crap like leaving Vault 13 why don't you first do some research on the mechanics of literature.

First of all in Fallout, the characters action define the story, which is written as you go along. Heck, the story could end with the master winning, and that is valid. In all Bioware games, the story is written and you are just going through the motions to complete, kinda like reading.

The water chips is a plot device, which is the motivation for leaving the vault, duh! Just like the plot device in Donkey Kong for hopping over all the barrels is your tart being kidnapped by an ape!

I like how you qualify a game like TOEE a rpg

ToEE is a CRPG in the same sense as Might and Magic, Darklands, and Wizardry are. BG is aswell. and IMO they both do a decent job, but I like ToEE better, because it has much better combat. If you ask people that like BG2, what they disliked about BG, they normally say the story. Not to mention the nonlinear aspects, stupid people. Well considering that Bioware's stories have all sucked, I am obviously only impressed with there CRPG elements, which typically consist of a bastardized DnD implementation.

I am afraid that you are either new to CRPGs, or have not played that many; but you obviously prove again you don't know what youa re talking about. I think the problem is that to you turn base combat = role-playing. Talk about a lame definition.

Whatever...

 

[Volourn]

So, Tri, the bottom line is that you do think BG2 is a crpg. That's all I wnated you to admit. Thanks for that. As for story vs. plot; true there is a difference; but they are very much connected in the grander sense. And, no the Bg series' story isn't alreaydw ritten. The story very much changes including final different endings depending on your choices during and in the final part of the game. Isn't as character driven in that sense as say FO? No; but still it is still character driven. I mean, you talk like it's either/or; when it's more like a certain degree of it all. Geez..

And, since you don't care about story driven games supposedly to begin with; your opinion on what story suycks or not isn't really a reliable source.

 

[Jed]

So, Tri, the bottom line is that you do think BG2 is a crpg. That's all I wnated you to admit.

OMG!!!1 U R TEH PARRY MAYSONN!!!!!!!11 LOL! LEWL!

Get a grip V-Dog. Tri's whole point is that a CRGP should allow you to play (4 a : to engage or take part in a game) a role (1 a [1] : a character assigned or assumed). When you have no other option than to follow the story of a character, that's not playing a role, that's passive consumption of a tale, like reading a book or watching TV, or in the case of computer games, an adventure game. (Notice that Bioware peppers it's passive story with passive combat--see a trend here?)

As for story vs. plot; true there is a difference; but they are very much connected in the grander sense. And, no the Bg series' story isn't alreaydw ritten.

I would say plot or story vs. premise. The water chip is a premise; here's a situation, what would you do? What role would you play?

The story very much changes including final different endings depending on your choices during and in the final part of the game.

Wha? Did I play a different BG?? I don't remember any different endings...

And, since you don't care about story driven games supposedly to begin with; your opinion on what story suycks or not isn't really a reliable source.

You're missing the point (again); Tri is saying that story driven = less of a CRPG, not offering his opinion on a story. He's not saying dog shit tastes better or worse than cat shit, he's saying shit is not for eating.

 

[Voss]

Actually the difference is a lot smaller than you guys are making it out to be.

Its the difference between taking a *specific* role, exemplified by P:ST (you are playing the Nameless One, and while you shape his personality to a degree, his history and its consequences are set).

The other end is the very general role- Wizardries, M&Ms, and TOEE. You have the generic adventuring party with no history to speak of and a loose tie in to the game.

Fallout is something of a middle ground- you play a Vault Dweller, with some of the history set for you, but theres room for you to make personality and specifics yourself (not that they have much impact in the game)

Now these differences don't make one game a RPG and another not, but there are differences in gameplay. Some people just don't like a story heavy game, and others don't like a barren game.

 

[Volourn]

Wow. Voss is impressive. He actually gets it. Interesting..

And, X, if you read it again, you'll notice I'm talking about the ntire BG series; not BG1 specifically though that's my party my fault. I should have said series; not game.

And, Tri is just plain wrong. A story driven game isn't less of a crpg; it's just a different king ofc rpg, Go figure.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Guess I don't need to retaliate to Tri since everyone else did it for me. I will say this though, even the games that have generic parties like the M&M series and ToEE still have a story to them. Come on, story is inevitable. It's just that with non-linear games, like Fallout and the M&M series, there will be huge gaps in the story as you run about doing what you want to do, but the story is still there, waiting for you patiently until you decide to continue it further some more.

Daggerfall was the same way. I have seen many people criticize that game for not having much of a plot. WTF? They OBVIOUSLY didn't do the quest to activate the main story at the beginning. Otherwise, they would have known there is in fact a plot to Daggerfall. You just didn't have to follow it at all if you didn't want to. Once you get out of the first dungeon, you are contacted by Lady Brissiera asking you to meet her at an inn somewhere. She gives you a month. If you go see her, the main plot is activated, and you are free to take it at your leisure. If you don't go see her, well then, no plot is activated and you are left to your own machinations with no hope of actually 'beating' the game.

Anyways, I'll stop there since everything else I would have said here has already been said by Volourn and the others.

 

[Elwro]

. Once you get out of the first dungeon, you are contacted by Lady Brissiera asking you to meet her at an inn somewhere

Don't want to be picky, but it seems that you mixed up Lady Brisienne and Queen Mynisera .
Speaking of DG's plot, I liked the parts of Aetherium in which there were some truly mysterious folks and you couldn't learn anything about who they were. Now it seems as if they wanted to add something more to the game, but somehow they didn't do it. But the result was quite good. The clownish character was quite a surprise.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Yeah, Lady Brisienne.

The clown character is actually part of the Quill Circus guild which was never implemented fully into the game. They are a guild, just not one you can join or do quests for. It was supposedly gonna be a guild for acrobat and dancer type characters. That would have been cool to be able to walk into an inn and perform for the people in the tavern to make some extra gold.

Here is a post pulled from a Daggerfall site giving insite into the Quill Circus:

As said by the others, the Quill Circus is most likely an unactivated guild which could ever-so-easily be activated by Bethesda (as with the Order of the Lamp) in a future patch. But is it likely for another patch to be released?? So many things yet to be activated / fixed (fix the pathetic open spell needed to gain entry to shops!) etc. If activated, I reckon they would serve as a guild for thief-like characters, ie: bards, acrobats, etc. and perhaps thieves and burglars themselves. Interesting quests would abound, eg: go to Lords %'s palace in %town to entertain whoever. The job could pay $x gold and the quest giver could hint at the Lord possessing certain valuables (magic items, armor etc) which your intended steal during your stay. Could the above be made into a 3rd party quest? I have no idea about making them, and there doesn't seem to be (m)any people submitting quests? If only daggerfall had been completed! As far as functionality goes.... standard non-implemented guild stuff, talk to them, ask about them but nothing worthwhile - as Lord Mortu said.

BTW, this was pulled from TES which is here: http://www.m0use.net/~crodo/main.html

 

[Elwro]

Gee, thanks. That's a nice site.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Gee, thanks. That's a nice site.

No problem, and yes it is. It's the best Daggerfall site devoted to speculation and the internal workings of the game. I found out alot of things about Daggerfall I never knew from that site. Matter of fact, I wouldn't have dived so much into Daggerfall were it not for that site. Damn them!