Lessons of Torment...

You are talking about Planescape setting?

Well they pulled a "Time of Troubles" on it, Vecna was used as a excuse to explain the new rules and even if its not gone ("Manual of the planes" had Sigil on it) the setting was not viewed as profitable to continue to support it, of course you have to realize Planescape come from TSR mad rush into creating settings.

As for PS:T sales ... I remenber that it made money after 2 years and you are forgetting this is a investment just like movies, the studios are not making movies to 2 years later recover the cost or with DVD sales in mind, they are supposed to pay thenselves in box office and the same happen with games, PS:T was a success if it made its money back and profit in the first 3 months ... Interplay could have gone the same money if they simply left it in the bank.

 

Slylandro, no offense but we're running around in circles here. I've tried to do my best to explain my point, but you just don't seem to get it. Either I'm not good enough at explaining or you're not good enough at listening; either way, I'm giving up.

 

You're confusing two terms -- "game" and "gameplay. I was simply defining the term "gameplay" in a way that's precise and consistent with the way most of use it.

Not all good games are fun, but all good games have good/enjoyable gameplay: they reinforce a behaviour that is not boring, tedious, or unpleasant. Including chess.

 

I can't compare the new book to the old, as I don't have the old. But I can note that the new one has Sigil at the center of the Outlands on page 150, and on page 151 describes it in the usual way -- the Lady of Pain, gods don't go there, sits atop a spire, controlled by many factions, portal keys everywhere, etc.

That would again be enough for me to create a NWN2 campaign. But maybe in the old books Sigil was the star & had many pages dedicated to it. I dunno.

-Tony

 

You were speaking about reloads and failures. Did you mean that reloading is a behaviour some games reinforce? Do you mean that reloading becomes part of the game(play)?

Well, I can very well understand the point you made in Save-game-itis thread, but I do not think it's related to failure consequences. Currently I play Pathologic. I does very good job at creating logical and interesting consequences for all kinds of decisions. But I still feel the urge to save and load often. I do not think the problem is with gamepley. Reasons:

1) I'm used to save and load because of other games. In 90% of all roleplaying games storyline consists purely of statistical improbabilities. Patheticly weak and ignorant main character kills hundreds of supeior foes, makes completely illogical decisions and performs heroic deeds every few hours. And finally he/she/it wins in the best possible way, without actually losing _anything_. And it's not just one possibility, it's the storyline. If you do not follow it, game starts to suck, goes to a deadend or simply ends.

Planescape does a great job at avoiding that kind of playing. You can't easiily die, you can resurrect your companions, you're not some whimp from an underdeveloped rural settlement, but a Power with its own history and clear motivation. Plus, decisions and characters are not clearly labeled as good and bad. Well, there are alignments, but you know what I mean. You can help evil characters without doing something evil.

2) Sometimes, your decisions lead to illogical resolutions.
Choice 1:
'Good morning.'
'I'm uber evil Sith Lord, and I hate polite people. Die!!!'

Choice 2:
'Hey, you are a pathethic looser.'
'ZOMG, youre so mean! Being uber evil Sith Lord, I like it. Let's be friends.'

That makes no sense, so I reload. But again, Planescape does not have that.

 

Yup, that's what I meant. Consider just about any platformer or FPS -- save-and-reload are integral to the gameplay. I also think it's a pointless and boring gameplay element, which is why I thought it's a shame PS:T didn't go the whole hog to get rid of it.

 

Fair enough. If we argue in the future maybe you could provide more relevant examples. As it is, your examples I quoted earlier you already said you would scrap...

 

It's not the book at all. It's a mandate that says "No modules or games in planescape".

 

Prime Junta, I agree with you that it would be neat if alternate paths opened up with failure, but what game does that other than the previously mentioned Wing Commander? PS:T never gave me save-itis* and I haven't heard of anyone else describing it in that way. It was very forgiving in my experience.

*I honestly can't remember a single time I loaded, played a bit, decided I had screwed up and reloaded. Maybe my memory sucks.

Oh wait, now I remember one time I got all my friends killed in a regenerating room in the caverns/caves and wanted to get their equipment back, tried to alter my savegame file to get Morte his teeth, but it corrupted that save and had to resort to an earlier one. The lesson to kids is don't try to cheat.

 

So what? The mandate became irrelevant when they replaced Planescape with the Manual of the Planes. Let them say "no Planescape." We'll all crack open the Manual of the Planes and keep right on playing. Sigil's still there. Carceri is still there. Except for Modrons, the creatures are still there.

-T

 

The mandate means if you say "hey we wanna make a book and/or computer game in planescape" they say "NO! We refuse to license it!". They hold the license, and they will not allow games to be made in that setting. It's an absolute, not a game maker's decision.

 

You continue to miss the point. No one needs to say "we wanna make a game in Planescape." A game developer would either say "we wanna make a D&D game" and then use MotP -- which is an official, sanctioned book by WotC -- or else the developer would say, "we wanna make a game using the Manual of the Planes & the Planar Handbook." The net effect is the same. Perhaps the net effect is even better, because some of the new stuff in those books would be fun to work on.

You'd have the same environments, the same creatures, an updated 3.5 ruleset, and the blessing of Wizards of the Coast. For someone who wanted to interact with a few more berks & cutters, it would be just what the doctor ordered.

-Tony

 

You just don't seem to get it. wotc told them that planescape the game could not have a sequel,a nd the name planescape can't be used. THAT MEANS NO SEQUEL. PERIOD.

 

Nope, I can't think of (m)any games that do this. Once more: the reason I brought it up is that PS:T solves the mortality problem so well, so IMO it's a shame they didn't go the whole hog in not reinforcing save/reload behaviour.

 

In other words, no Annah, no TNO, no Dak'kon, etc, and the story must be different. We could have a spiritual successor, eg as Arcanum is to Fallout, but not a sequel per se.

@Junta
We all get your point about save/reload, it just didn't apply to the rest of us.

 

Yes, thank you. That's what I've been trying to get across -- I'm happy to have a spiritual successor, and it looks possible. In fact, I'd like 20. I don't need the Planescape name, don't need Annah, don't need TNO, etc. I need the Cant, I need the concept that belief is power, I need good writing, and I need it set in the planes. None of that is barred by WotC.

Thank you for getting it.

-T

 

Fallout didn't have a particuraly good storyline, just the tipical "hero saves *select type of comunity*" thing, the gameplay was fun though and the world was imersive, but the storyline was rather mediocre by my standarts.

Arcanum on the other hand is closer to what you're looking for, but even it doesn't have a particuraly original story.

 

The rights to D&D electronic media are in Atari hands with WotC/Hasbro having final word on content.

As it stands they are pushing for Eberron with FR being the fallback, its unlikely anything else its going to be used.

 

Did you even finish it?

 

Yeah, it was really interesting for me later on. Don't judge the plot by its first half.

 

Well, we would all like that, but without the name and main characters unfortunately they will never do it.

I think for a period of time they actually had it so that crpgs were ONLY allowed to be in the forgotten realms world, too, but I am not 100% on that.

 

Agree with LlamaGod. I would provide evidence but I don't feel like spoiling the game.

 

It can be funny, though. I remember someone on here saying one of Arcanum's weak points was the storyline, I asked them 'how the fuck' and they said it was just another generic 'chosen one' plot.

I had a good giggle.

 

Heh

 

Well, there was that one quest.. One of the prostitutes in the Brothel for Slating Intellectual Lusts tasks you with retrieving the 'keys to her heart' from Merriman, who wanders the corridors of the Civic Festhall. There are at least three ways to solve this quest;
1. You can talk Merriman into giving them to you if you agree to find a way to erase his memory (which involves getting ahold of a beer mug from the Curiosity Shop and then trapping a Dark Bird of Ocanthus in it).
2. You can kill him and get the keys off his corpse
3. You can pickpocket him.

You don't really need to be a thief to pull off option #3, though, since you can have Annah do the deed for you.