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Completed Let's Play Darkest Hour - Turkey enters WW2

zool

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Kipeci

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I think historically Turkey would get cooked and eaten for dinner, not a good side of the war to be on. British now have firm control of Iraq and are well on their way to dominating Syria along with the Free French, unless Turks are sent and able to turn the tide there. Even if they succeed though (and considering the delay from travel, poor supplies & equipment and how the Syrians would have despised efforts by Turks to either help the French or themselves take hold of the region I'd have some doubts), that's peeling away strength from the new front in the Caucasus where even a tottering Imperial Russia being crushed by the German Empire had managed to devastate similarly equipped Turks not quite thirty years back.

The Turkish borders to guard against enemy powers in this case are soon to be over 1200 km long if Syria is lost, or if that's somehow held onto by Axis forces still some 550 km from Iraq and the Caucasus republics of the USSR. The latter, smaller shared borders with enemy Allies is about the same length as from Tallinn to Vilnius; the former case of the border is about like crossing the continent of Europe from Gdańsk to Odessa. And that's not even counting all the coastline for the Royal Navy and Black Sea Fleet to wreak havoc on from their convenient nearby bases on either side of the country.

Of course, in Darkest Hour you can pull off some really neat things so I'm confident you'll probably do fine.
 

zool

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I think historically Turkey would get cooked and eaten for dinner, not a good side of the war to be on. British now have firm control of Iraq and are well on their way to dominating Syria along with the Free French, unless Turks are sent and able to turn the tide there. Even if they succeed though (and considering the delay from travel, poor supplies & equipment and how the Syrians would have despised efforts by Turks to either help the French or themselves take hold of the region I'd have some doubts), that's peeling away strength from the new front in the Caucasus where even a tottering Imperial Russia being crushed by the German Empire had managed to devastate similarly equipped Turks not quite thirty years back.

The Turkish borders to guard against enemy powers in this case are soon to be over 1200 km long if Syria is lost, or if that's somehow held onto by Axis forces still some 550 km from Iraq and the Caucasus republics of the USSR. The latter, smaller shared borders with enemy Allies is about the same length as from Tallinn to Vilnius; the former case of the border is about like crossing the continent of Europe from Gdańsk to Odessa. And that's not even counting all the coastline for the Royal Navy and Black Sea Fleet to wreak havoc on from their convenient nearby bases on either side of the country.

Of course, in Darkest Hour you can pull off some really neat things so I'm confident you'll probably do fine.

A well-informed and spot-on analysis I'm afraid.

We won't necessarily do fine because, in line with this being a "serious" LP within the limits of the DH engine, we'll also try to roleplay how a Turanist-dominated Turkish government and high command would have fought the war - meaning that there is an ideological dimension to how strategic decisions are made, and it doesn't necessarily lead to the best possible outcome. The Turanists were not neo-Ottomans and they cared little about the Arab-dominated parts of the former Ottoman empire (Syria, Iraq, Palestine, Arabian peninsula). Their eyes were set on Turkic populations in south Russia and Central Asia, which means that the Caucasus front will be a priority though it might well end up being a bloody dead end - more on that later when we review the (fictional) Turkish General Staff plans for the war.

Re: Syria. Sadly so, the 22 June 1941 scenario start does not simulate the ongoing fighting between Vichy forces and Commonwealth/Free French forces that was taking place back then. Syria starts already under control of the Free French, which is ahistorical as the fighting went on until 12 July. I guess the scenario developers didn't want to bother with it as it would have involved creating a separate "Vichy Syria" entity - otherwise, the Syrian campaign would mean that all of Vichy France would start the scenario at war against the UK, which is in turn ahistorical.
 

Andnjord

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yougonget.jpg





...just sayin'
 

zool

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ugongetraped

I will most likely get raped, and that would actually be pretty cool since it would show that 1. the DH engine accurately portrays WW2 and 2. Turkey was right not to enter the war historically.

You can count on me to fight to the bitter end if it happens though - we'll die fighting against the Soviets on the steps to the Atatürk Mausoleum in Ankara while the Brits once again occupy Constantinople Istanbul.
 

nobre

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This is the good stuff. Thanks for making this LP.

Attack with limited means ASAP vs. Wait for forces buildup/redeployment to be over.

Await redeployment. Concentration of force is more important than speed to do anything meaningful with your limited forces. Considering the challenges winter brings, you should plan for a very limited offensive in autumn '41 in order to create a springboard for the real push north, which will happen in spring '42. Hopefully by then you can bring some troops from the Middle East to the Caucasus front.


Risky invasion of Cyprus vs. limited bombing campaign against Nicosia's airbase.

Don't invade, it's high risk vs low reward, and a further dispersion of land forces. Since your airforce is pretty useless elsewhere, bomb Cyprus to rubble, not just the airbase, but also infra bombing.


Some unsolicited advice:

The Manych line is vulnerable from attack from the Crimea, if that is still in Russian hands by the time you reach it. I'm not sure (can't be bothered to check) but I think the Kerch-Novorussiysk border is a straits crossing. If that's the case, you'll have found a use for your submarines.

Also, be wary of Persia joining the war. I am not sure of the conditions of this happening, but Soviet controlled land on your right flank and rear could cause all kinds of problems.
 
Unwanted

Kalin

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Awesome updates! No idea how to play this, nobre seems to know what's up though.

Eagerly awaiting carnage!

:avatard:
 

Andnjord

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Aye, I agree with Nobre. Secure the mountain passes in the north while focusing on the south, that's where you can hope to gain a decisive victory in a reasonable time frame against getting sucked up into the russian steppes and attracting too much attention from the soviet hordes.
 

zool

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Nobre's plan is tactically sound. It makes no sense to use your limited forces against the Soviets right now. With all your troops, you might be able to attain local superiority while Soviets are busy with Germany.

Focus, meanwhile, on securing the Middle East so you can focus more troops for the Soviet front.

I agree but, in keeping with the idea stated in the first post that we'll try to roleplay to some extent the Turanist ideological footprint on Turkey's grand strategy, I still have to dedicate some of my forces to an offensive in the Caucasus. Roleplaying this - once again to some extent, the goal is not to play this like a complete retard - is not necessarily playing dumb: in addition to the crucial oil fields in Baku, Grozny and Maykop (though the latter two are probably out of reach for our autumn/winter campaign), the Armenian iron mines in Nashkivan and the Georgian coal mines in Sukhumi are also strategic objectives for Turkey. Indeed, Turkey is critically short of those resources for its industry - the Turkish national production of iron metal only covers 10% of its needs and its energy/coal production only 20%.
 

Andnjord

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Forward!!! Remove Commies from premises!!!:outrage:



Also those are some serious Red forces facing you, things might get...hairy in the near future :smug:
Since you had to move some of those divisions form wherever the AI sent them originally, did it create some gaps in the lines facing the Germans? That would be an unexpected benefit for your allies.
 

zool

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Also those are some serious Red forces facing you, things might get...hairy in the near future :smug:

Oh yes, there is a potential for things in the Caucasus to go seriously wrong seriously quick. Also remember that Turkish units are still plagued by terrible logistics, and it's only going to get worse when we enter the Caucasus. Slow movement, reduced combat abilities, high attrition... The feeling of impending disaster is delicious. :obviously:

Since you had to move some of those divisions form wherever the AI sent them originally, did it create some gaps in the lines facing the Germans? That would be an unexpected benefit for your allies.

Not too much I think since they were often part of Soviet-style 15-division stacks. On the other hand, the Soviets and the Brits did get the benefit of using those units on the frontline during more than two months while historically, they were standing guard in the Caucasus and in the Near East.
 

zool

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Looks like things in the Caucasus are going to suck. You have more numbers, but their defensive location is vastly better.

Things on the Middle-East seem chill for now.

I can confirm that things in the Caucasus are not going so well - no blitzkrieg in sight, that's for sure. Surprisingly, things aren't that easy in the Middle-East either. Will post an update later today or tomorrow.

The worst thing is not even the terrain: supply is a much bigger issue. Also, dissent went through the roof once I joined the war, reducing further my IC - and consequently my Transportation Capacity, which in turns reduces my Effective Supply Efficiency (ESE). Add that to the fact that I'm mostly fighting in low infrastructure provinces and that's a big combat malus for my troops. My overloaded TC also means that my troops move super slowly while the enemy can redeploy his forces very quickly. My economy is also incapable of supporting the war effort, with commodities running low and me being forced to dedicate nearly 75% of my IC to producing supplies:

Vitals2.png


Here are the typical modifiers I'm fighting with in the Caucasus - and the Effective Supply Efficiency ESE malus is often worse than 25% :

Modifiers.png



Are you going to liberate Middle-Eastern countries as puppets, keep them or only keep until you can get some IC built?

Any plans to build IC once you secure all that oil and coal? Or just build units with what you have?

What about Iran? Taking it over WOULD place you into contact with the British Raj. Won't that result in lots of Indian divisions swarming over Iran?

I'll definitely puppet Middle-East countries at some point, both for roleplaying purposes (Turanists have no interest in Arab countries) and because most of them - Syria and Palestine in particular - have nearly no IC, manpower or natural resources worth controlling directly anyway. Even the oil fields in Iraq are not producing much - the really interesting ones are in the southwestern Iranian provinces of Ahvaz and Hamadan.

I'll also puppet some of the non-Turkic populated countries I conquer, once again for roleplaying purposes. That will most certainly be the case for Georgia and Armenia, even though they're rich in resources - but puppeting them will reduce my TC load and puppets are supposed to send their master their surplus of resources anyway.

No plans to invade Iran except for the western provinces of Kermanshah, Hamadan and Ahvaz in order to protect Iraq as well as the northwestern Iranian provinces of Rezaiye, Tabriz and Rast which are populated by Turkic Azeris.

Here is a map of the Turkic provinces that a Turanist Turkey would realistically claim as part of the new Turan empire - the non-Turkic inhabited regions in between would be puppets.

TuranClaims.png


From west to east, the regions claimed are:

Ukraine/Russia
Crimea (Crimean Tatars)

Caucasus
Karachay-Cherkessia (Karachays)
Kabardino-Balkaria (Balkars)
Dagestan (Kumyks)
Chechnya (Kumyks)
Azerbaijan (Azeris)

Iran
Iranian Azerbaijan (Azeris)

Russia
Tatarstan (Tatars)
Bashkiria (Bashkirs)
Chuvashia (Chuvashes)

Central Asia
Central Asian republics (Kazakhs, Turkmens, Uzbeks, Kyrgyzs)
Tannu-Tuva (Tuvans)
Xinjiang (Uyghurs)
 

zool

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Seems like you're going to have to take some non-Turkic provinces to keep things contiguous. Good ol' Relocations/DeFacto ethnic cleansings, its just fun and games in the 40s.

That's one odd-shaped Empire.

Seeing how things are shaping up, I doubt my troops will ever set foot in Southern Russia, let alone Central Asia.

But damn, those modifiers are absolutely horrible. -25 ESE penality, kill me now.

-25 is usually the best I get, it's generally more around -30 and can reach -35 at times. I guess that accurately simulates waging war with insufficient logistics but it's still :negative:

Also, the combination of infantry + low infra + bad terrain + overloaded TC makes for excruciatingly slow movement, and I'm getting constantly outmanoeuvred by the enemy.

Ins't Iran a Soviet puppet right now? Seems logical to take it out and get that vassal oil.

It's been puppeted by the UK as part of the anglo-soviet invasion of Iran event but weirdly enough, the UK released it a few weeks after. It's still part of the Allies though, so we're at war even but I've yet to see a single Iranian unit on the front so far - I guess they're not really fan of the idea of fighting side-by-side with the two countries which just invaded them. :roll:
 

Kipeci

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Are Turanists not interested in Turkmen in Syria and Iraq? Granted, not huge populations compared to the Kurds & Arabs surrounding them, but they seem willing to lay claim to some heavily Russian-populated territory with a sparse population of Turkic-speakers much less connected to Turkey than the Turkmen. Also, are Kurds being referred to as 'Mountain Turks' at this point?
 

zool

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Are Turanists not interested in Turkmen in Syria and Iraq? Granted, not huge populations compared to the Kurds & Arabs surrounding them, but they seem willing to lay claim to some heavily Russian-populated territory with a sparse population of Turkic-speakers much less connected to Turkey than the Turkmen. Also, are Kurds being referred to as 'Mountain Turks' at this point?

Yes you are right, Turanists could also realistically claim Turkmen-populated areas in Syria and Iraq. So in game terms, that would roughly correspond to the provinces of Aleppo, El Qamishli, Mosul, Erbil and Kirkuk (the latter three representing the Mosul vilayet) - I'll add them to my claims.

It seems Turanists were divided on the issue of Kurds, with some arguing for Armenian-style ethnic cleansing against them while others advocated the idea that Kurds had Turkish origins and thus were to be called "Mountain Turks" indeed.

...So how long until Germany and Co's AI flood your country with their own troops thereby abandoning their own frontline?

That has not happened so far, which is great because I already cannot even properly supply my own troops, let alone foreign troops. If the AI does that, I'm afraid it will probably completley break the game.
 

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