In Progress Let's Play: Rule The Waves

[CaptainCoxwaggle]

Nice to see that included that little bit in!

It's not just interference from each barrel firing so close, the more cramped spaces reduce reload efficiency and other stuff.

The game takes into account a surprising number of small things, there is an accuracy penalty for numerous ships firing upon a single target until shell dyes are researched to allow shell splashes to be distinguished, coal powered engines give an accuracy malus to other ships in the line but provide additional protection as shell penetrations can be limited by the coal bunkers. The Japanese even get a cute bonus in nighttime engagements.

I will readily admit that quad turrets have a host of problems, and they are very prone to being disabled. However I find the weight savings, and the flexibility in manoeuvring without fear of restricted fire arcs to be worthwhile. I do ensure that my ships are fast enough to withdraw from combat should a turret be disabled and the odds are otherwise unfavourable.

 

[Dayyālu]

Let's Play Rule The Waves: I should be playing Painkiller now Edition

Ugh. The situation requires a rehauling. Our CA fleet is getting truly old, and our older CLs and Bs could use a small refit when we can spare the money and the time. I guess we should then follow Beastro's suggestion and put them into the reserve fleet to get their tonnage but minimize expenses. In less than a year we can begin or new BB program, let's see if we get some good tech in the meantime.

Hilarious. I swear.

But it's enough. The French armies are beaten, their fleet in shambles. Peace it is. VICTORY AT SEA, AND GLORY TO RUSSIA. And one extra Prestige point.

6 claim points aren't much. I manage to get the Tonkin colony and Polynesia. Yes, Polynesia. It's worthless, but we had a spare point. I guess we'll need to forge our Pacific Fleet in something more durable than the skeleton running around there now. Plus, Polynesia can be employed to cool Kalin 's loins with friendly natives.

Or something.

The Britons get the Antilles from France. The two main European powers are getting the short end of the stick in this timeline!

Annnd the German are back at it again, trying to steal our superior tech. Sore losers. The peace is not that catastrophic for our budget, we'll manage to finish this round of ships and we can easily sent our obsolete cruisers to keep order in the newly gained colonies. Placing the older ships in reserve and mothballing some obsolete cruisers give us a considerable economical edge. I guess we can quietly plan for refits and our new BB class now.

Our Diana class is a mess. I don't think they are worth a refit, I mean, 4 inch guns? What the heck our predecessor was thinking?

The Pallada class can still be useful. We'll get new Oil engines for an adequate speed of 26, some bulges to improve torpedo protection. A bit expensive, but we can keep this class still in use for a while. 6 inch guns, with a new fire control system, are enough to hunt for CLs and merchantmen. Despite engine problems, I'll risk to optimize them for Speed to gain an extra edge in raiding. Older 1899-1908 enemy CLs will be slower for sure.

DISCLAIMER: This is a wrong screenshot. I don't have yet tech for CL mine rails. Dammit.

We'll suffer and spend some extra money in giving older ships better fire control systems. It's always worth it.

More budget, Tsar. More. But give me three years of peace to rebuild our main fleet. We require additional Dreadnoughts. Badly.

Overweight. Whatever. Still 27 knots. Enough for escorting, but not for catching some of the newest lighting fast enemy DDs (I swear, 31 knots? To do what? Suicide runs against blockades?)

This is great, instead. Our next batch of submarines will be far more effective.

And expensive.

See, subs aren't designed. They are build in "tiers" and their reliability is dependant on tech levels. Our subs are done very well despite being coastal subs and without the better tech. The problem is that more advanced subs are far more expensive.

A coastal sub costs roughly 1.600.000 Tsar bucks.

A Medium range sub costs 3.600.000 bucks and the manteinance is double.

Well. The Britons sell us their tech for torpedo aiming, though, so it's all good. This alliance was a godsend. 5% sub reliability!


Our last DDs and CLs exit the docks. It's time to order our new class of BBs. We did not have huge tech breakthroughs, so the past designs are still good. What to build, what to build.... I'd love to build each of one, but with the prototyping costs the expense would be insane.

Objekt 1 and Objekt 2 have both top speed of 23 knots. I like "fast" battleships, or at least I like them in the tactical mode. Objekt 3 is a tough motherfucker though, and .... hmpfh. I can't decide.

I'm sorry to cut the update short here, but ... Ungh. I can't choose by myself.

Let us make clear our choices:

Objekt 1 (Baardhaas, 1 vote)

It has FIVE double turrets. Double turrets are more reliable, but in this design they don't have excellent armour (just 8.5 inch, still something). The ship is somewhat well-armoured for close fighting, but there is a chance of a catastrophical hit on a turret and boom. Speed is an excellent 23 knots. Excellent for a BB, of course. We can think of it as the "glass cannon" of our options, even if it's not such a precise definition.

Risky design, but it can work. I like it, truth be told, despite the weaknesses I see.


Objekt 2 (Coxwaggle)

This one is a good all rounder. Less armour on the belt, more armour on the turrets and on the deck. A very good "middle ground" design, with the added peculiarity of 24 6 inch guns that will ruin the day of every cruiser or DD trying to get near. Speed is 23 knots, so fast.

Objekt 3 (Beastro)

Our third option is not that different from Objekt 2, but it has far better armour all around, with a bit less of firepower (I mean, same guns of Objekt 2 but only 14 5 inches as secondaries. Still enough to ruin the day of smaller ships, of course).

I have removed the sub torpedo launchers now that I know they are a liability. The speed on this one is just 21 knots, but it's comparable to the designs of all the AI nations, if not even fasters (German and Japanese BB are 19 knots and 18 knots!).


Choose now! So I can do a proper update!

 

[Azira]

Gneh. DPSer or Tank?

 

[Luka-boy]

I like Objekt 3. Enough dakka to ruin anyone's day and it shouldn't go down easily.

By the way, the last two pages of this thread have been amazing with all that military history and designs discussion

 

[Kalin]

No boom boom for soul brutha!?

Voting for 3 because bigger is better!

 

[Grimwulf]

Objekt 3 (Beastro)

Because we need a bigger boat, knots be damned.

 

[Grimgravy]

Dayyālu Why doesn't Objekt 2 use a superimposed B turret rather than the C like Objekt3?

 

[Storyfag]

Objekt 3

 

[tindrli]

oBJEKT 2

 

[Beastro]

Object 3

Got this game myself and have been playing. I get most of it, but combat remains a mystery exactly what I'm doing and how to make ships go in a certain direction or not. I tried just putting them to AI control to do something and that keeps turning off every few seconds without my touching the mouse of keyboard.

 

[Dayyālu]

Got this game myself and have been playing. I get most of it, but combat remains a mystery exactly what I'm doing and how to make ships go in a certain direction or not. I tried just putting them to AI control to do something and that keeps turning off every few seconds without my touching the mouse of keyboard.

I should have covered the interface in my first combat post, but I mostly play in Rear Admiral's mode (so the captains follow the AI roles bar for the Flagship and the Core squadrons).

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/lets-play-rule-the-waves.108492/page-5

Admiral mode gives you direct control just of the flagship, and Captain mode of everything.

In Rear Admiral mode you lose direct control of the ships if they get too far from the flagship's signals (that depends on the weather and on the time of the day). The captain will get back to AI control and do whatever their dumb selves want to do.

Dayyālu Why doesn't Objekt 2 use a superimposed B turret rather than the C like Objekt3?

Great point. I should correct that.

 

[Baardhaas]

Gentlemen, all these votes for objekt 3 is utter madness. For the greater glory of our most prestigious navy we need an elegant design with speed, agility and most of all, lots of big guns. Most venerated colleague Beastro’s design is, bluntly put, a floating brick. How is pic related going to strike fear in the hearts of our enemies? How is this ship going to defend the motherland? By sinking it in the Øresund?

 

[Kalin]

Floating Fortress, unsinkable!

Build it damn you, build it NOW!

 

[Grimgravy]

Voting for Objekt 2.

 

[Comte]

OBJEKT 3

 

[Dayyālu]

Tally for now.

Objekt 1 has zero votes. Well, one. Mine!

Objekt 2 has two votes.

Objekt 3 has six votes, and it seems it will become our next choice.

Hilariously enough, I noticed we are incredibly behind in dock size compared to every other nation. I mean, we are a first-rate power regarding tech and budget, but we have the smallest docks. Even Japan broke 30'000 tons! I guess I should do some good old State centralization. Fuckin' private companies.

Update coming as soon as I manage to write it down. Got sidetracked by shitposting and thingies.

Floating Fortress, unsinkable!

Sing to the sailors, on the floating fortresses!

Nah. We are in far better times. The Tsar cares. He truly does.

 

[Endlösung]

tfw no 20 inch gunnies

 

[Beastro]

Ok played a game of this as CSA myself, learned some stuff.

The Pre-Dread era is too short, the game should begin around 1890 at least. I found myself only able to build another class of Pre-Dread in time for Dreads to come along, but I did start with making my own classes and the 6 I prebuilt were good enough.

Light Cruisers are OP. You're able to make a good 5500 ton class at the start with an 6 inch, 8 gun broadside and 23 knots. I built 10 of them at start and they lasted me until the end of the game added alongside newer classes that differed very little from them only getting more speed and an extra two guns per broadside. Once I got the right tech I refit them and gave them oil fired engines that allowed them to do 27 knots, which was fairly slow by the end cruiser wise but still allowed them to keep fighting. All other classes got 29knots, and later, all got refit with twin fore and aft guns. These were mean, able to take on Armoured Cruisers without problem and even some later Heavy Cruisers. Anything below them didn't stand a chance.

Armoured cruisers suck. They're not much more expensive than Pre-Deads and worse in every way cept speed. I built a cut down class of three at start with 2 single 9 inch guns and a 7-8 6inchers for raiding and they weren't much better than the Lights I built. Heavy Cruisers are the same, only they have to contend with BCs. It is nice to see though that, as historical, there is room for Heavy's but it's not big with treaties restricting ship sizes, but often the treaty's don't last long and merely allow you some free time to build up your Light Cruiser and Destroyer fleet, since you sped so much time trying to build BBs and BCs given their construction length and cost.

Destroyers, beyond filling as screen and ASW duty I didn't find much use for since mine didn't seem to use their torps often. Only time they shined was shoving a good 6 or so into a pair of Japanese BCs I faced slowing them down for my own BCs to finish off.

Dreadnoughts and BCs are nice, but God, they are expensive and take ages to produce. There's no real way I think you could make historical numbers. I was struggling to make about four a decade.

One thing I have noticed is the way combat scenarios work speed seems to be hugely important to get your units into a fight. In my game, my BBs and the AIs I fought experienced combat only once, while my four BCs saw many battles, often too much not having a chance to repair (one BC got a turret knocked out early in my war with Japan and it remained that way for the rest of the war). I'll be starting a new game as Russia and going mostly BCs this time with a smaller core of BBs to fall back on I think.

 

[Dayyālu]

Thanks for keeping the thread alive, I was too lazy to update today

Ok played a game of this as CSA myself, learned some stuff.

Pics pliz. I'm curious what the Confederacy built!

The Pre-Dread era is too short, the game should begin around 1890 at least. I found myself only able to build another class of Pre-Dread in time for Dreads to come along, but I did start with making my own classes and the 6 I prebuilt were good enough.

I agree. Pre-dreads are a huge drain in the beginning, and then they fail to shine if you don't jump on someone quickly before they get outgunned.

I built 10 of them at start and they lasted me until the end of the game added alongside newer classes that differed very little from them only getting more speed and an extra two guns per broadside.

From this, I presume you designed your own legacy fleet. I do prefer, I don't know why, to follow the Dev's suggestion and to let the AI design my own legacy fleet. The challenge is greater if you have to work with the crazy designs you inherit sometimes. It almost feels too easy to have a more than adequate legacy fleet if you know what you are doing. I've read that the 1.31 AI is far more efficient at designing ships, even aping your designs, but who knows if it's true.

Dreadnoughts and BCs are nice, but God, they are expensive and take ages to produce. There's no real way I think you could make historical numbers. I was struggling to make about four a decade.

I think the only way yo get "near" historical numbers is to get Britan, go full Historical budget and very large fleet size, and start building like there is no tomorrow. And now you get why I was crying tears of blood when they got the Revitzan: a lost BB is a tragedy (and the French got 4k VP just from that).

 

[Beastro]

Pics pliz. I'm curious what the Confederacy built!

You mean what my fleets like at the end or what the generate themselves?

I agree. Pre-dreads are a huge drain in the beginning, and then they fail to shine if you don't jump on someone quickly before they get outgunned.

I did a start with Spain and gunned for them from the beginning. Continually beat them up so my Pre-Dreads go some action off their coast.

From this, I presume you designed your own legacy fleet.

Yeah, since the ship designing is such a fun part of the game.

The challenge is greater if you have to work with the crazy designs you inherit sometimes. It almost feels too easy to have a more than adequate legacy fleet if you know what you are doing.

The thing is, you can have Britain make your first Pre-Dreads that way and use the discount on construction to get a few more.

I think the only way yo get "near" historical numbers is to get Britan, go full Historical budget and very large fleet size, and start building like there is no tomorrow.

Yeah I went large and historical budget. The CSA surprisingly gets a good historical budget.

By the end the US had about 10 BBs and 9 BCs, Britain get 14 BBs and 6 BCs, thought I think they'd retired their earliest ships or lost some.

I didn't feel so bad seeing what others had, which was about what I had only with an extra BC and a few CAs. I had about 10 more CLs though which got a hell of a lot more use.

And now you get why I was crying tears of blood when they got the Revitzan: a lost BB is a tragedy (and the French got 4k VP just from that).

Early underwater protection was non existent, a lot of ships sank from single torps and mines with huge casualties because they were never designed to face such attacks.

First thing I thought was that you got Audacious'ed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Audacious_(1912)

The vessel did not see any combat in the First World War. It was sunk by a German naval mine off the northern coast of County Donegal in Ulster, Ireland, in October 1914.

Ship was barely a year old when she was lost.

 

[CaptainCoxwaggle]

Light Cruisers are OP. You're able to make a good 5500 ton class at the start with an 6 inch, 8 gun broadside and 23 knots. I built 10 of them at start and they lasted me until the end of the game added alongside newer classes that differed very little from them only getting more speed and an extra two guns per broadside. Once I got the right tech I refit them and gave them oil fired engines that allowed them to do 27 knots, which was fairly slow by the end cruiser wise but still allowed them to keep fighting. All other classes got 29knots, and later, all got refit with twin fore and aft guns. These were mean, able to take on Armoured Cruisers without problem and even some later Heavy Cruisers. Anything below them didn't stand a chance.

Armoured cruisers suck. They're not much more expensive than Pre-Deads and worse in every way cept speed. I built a cut down class of three at start with 2 single 9 inch guns and a 7-8 6inchers for raiding and they weren't much better than the Lights I built. Heavy Cruisers are the same, only they have to contend with BCs. It is nice to see though that, as historical, there is room for Heavy's but it's not big with treaties restricting ship sizes, but often the treaty's don't last long and merely allow you some free time to build up your Light Cruiser and Destroyer fleet, since you sped so much time trying to build BBs and BCs given their construction length and cost.

Destroyers, beyond filling as screen and ASW duty I didn't find much use for since mine didn't seem to use their torps often. Only time they shined was shoving a good 6 or so into a pair of Japanese BCs I faced slowing them down for my own BCs to finish off.

Dreadnoughts and BCs are nice, but God, they are expensive and take ages to produce. There's no real way I think you could make historical numbers. I was struggling to make about four a decade.

One thing I have noticed is the way combat scenarios work speed seems to be hugely important to get your units into a fight. In my game, my BBs and the AIs I fought experienced combat only once, while my four BCs saw many battles, often too much not having a chance to repair (one BC got a turret knocked out early in my war with Japan and it remained that way for the rest of the war). I'll be starting a new game as Russia and going mostly BCs this time with a smaller core of BBs to fall back on I think.

Might I ask for a pic of your Light Cruiser? I mostly just build extremely small 2.5kt commerce raiders with two 5 inch guns, 24knots with long range and a reliable engine. I've never been able to make a light cruiser that could take on threats at a decent price.

On the otherside I find Armoured Cruisers invaluable. Your design in my eyes appears to be undergunned, I personally build them to be essentially the pre-dread version of the Battlecruiser, with two twin 10 inch turrets and 6 inch armour on a 23 knots ship that sports nearly the same tonnage as a dreadnought. They come out to be more expensive then my dreadnought but end up seeing much more action as you have observed with your battlecruisers vs battleships.

To get use out of destroyers, you will need to select the setting "Flotilla Attack" in the command menu, which will drive the AI to make aggressive torpedo runs, in addition nighttime makes destroyers much more aggressive and useful. During the daytime, destroyers serve strictly as escorts, and will occasionally torpedo disabled ships and pick up survivors. Unless you are Japan and happen to get a large tech lead in large destroyers.

Very Large fleet setting is the closest to realistic numbers. Britain's Budget is actually slightly less then what it was historically for purposes of game balance. Maintaining a jingoistic attitude, engaging in wholesale imperialism, and keeping global tensions high will also inflate your budget, although at a certain point you will find that national dissent increases due to the massive naval budget.

The game also lets you continue to 1950, where you can see some truly massive sea battles

Spoiler

Ship designer and long construction times would make for great potential for succession games.

 

[Beastro]

Might I ask for a pic of your Light Cruiser? I mostly just build extremely small 2.5kt commerce raiders with two 5 inch guns, 24knots with long range and a reliable engine. I've never been able to make a light cruiser that could take on threats at a decent price.

Here's how they were at start, cost over 19mil each.

Spoiler

Final refit:

Spoiler

Next class in line which was a minor improvement. They got refit the least (single for and aft guns till the end, but room for 29kt) and wound up on station while the Charlestons were brought back to the Caribbean and the newest ones were attached to the battlefleet on the Eastern Seaboard:

Spoiler

Final class and their refit afterwards. I skipped the Norfolks which weren't a success. Tried to put torps on them and for their size weren't much of an improvement over the Galvestons, were quickly superseded by the New Orelans:

Spoiler

Refit Nolas. They got wing doubles because refit only allows use of old barbettes.:

Spoiler

In total made 11 Charlestons, 9 Galvestons, 6 Norfolks and like 6 New Orleans and didn't lose one.

All had long range which might have been a mistake as I kept finding my fleet running into engine trouble went sent into enemy territory, which being the CSA, meant several zones away from North Western Atlantic.

On the otherside I find Armoured Cruisers invaluable. Your design in my eyes appears to be undergunned, I personally build them to be essentially the pre-dread version of the Battlecruiser, with two twin 10 inch turrets and 6 inch armour on a 23 knots ship that sports nearly the same tonnage as a dreadnought. They come out to be more expensive then my dreadnought but end up seeing much more action as you have observed with your battlecruisers vs battleships.

They were on purpose. I found though that my Pre-Dreads were able to get into combat in ways that the Dreads couldn't. They were 19kt, maybe the speed deference isn't as huge as it eventually becomes. I might try that using them in place of Pre-Dreads though....

To get use out of destroyers, you will need to select the setting "Flotilla Attack" in the command menu, which will drive the AI to make aggressive torpedo runs, in addition nighttime makes destroyers much more aggressive and useful. During the daytime, destroyers serve strictly as escorts, and will occasionally torpedo disabled ships and pick up survivors. Unless you are Japan and happen to get a large tech lead in large destroyers.

Awesome I'll keep that in mind and make more use of them. Was really funny with that BC battle, the Japanese BCs got slowed down right as my DDs launched their salvo, they didn't have a chance to maneuver and got pretty much all of them.

 

[Dayyālu]

Ship designer and long construction times would make for great potential for succession games.

Is that a proposal ?


About overall strategy, I concur with Coxwaggle that well-built CA are invaluable indeed in a lot of roles, even if they are tricky ships to use to the fullest.

Let's Play Rule The Waves: Docking procedure initiated

Good. We order two of the new BBs, the Objekt 3 model. Our politicians insist for a proper name, and so they are christened "Tsesarevich". The projected expense will be of roughly 176.000.000 Tsar Bucks, a insanely high expense. Muh money. We will require three years to get them out.

In the meantime, I'll upgrade the older models and keep in shape the fleet.

As our ships get out of the docks and the refit ends, we can see that our economy and budget are good enough to keep both of the BB in the docks and upgrade the fleet. Very, very good.

The last hulls of our "Destroyers&Subs" program are getting out. I'll maybe build a few more, subs are effective and our tech level is good enough.

I check our roster for proper ships to upgrade. The Quintus , from the Gromoboi class, has served us well, but its design is a poorly thought mess. I don't think it's even worth the money to refit. I will upgrade our docks instead and get some money reserves. When the situation balances, I'll develop and build a new BC class for us to experiment with.

So, we sail forth quietly. I try to refit the Baardhaas, but the design is a mess and the hull can't take speeds superior to 24 knots. It will have to wait until we get better fire control systems before I waste money on a refit.

Great. Our BCs will be tough customers. 29k tons minimum!

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

More tech to avoid the dreaded gap

Maybe someone will be asking how we manage to be one of the leading powers in tech, despite being, well, Russia. The point is that budget is related to Prestige, and that the Research budget is always the 10% of the overall budget. It's a positive loop: we win wars and mantain our prestige, we get more money, we get better tech, we win wars.

And the people sometimes get unhappy that we waste millions in building juggernauts of questionable quality instead of giving them bread, and start to harbour socialist thoughts. The fools, they don't know that True Socialism requires steel and machines to be properly estabilished.

Do we care?

No. (Yes, most of our older fleet is mothballed. Keeping antediluvian Bs in service when there is no chance of a war is not good for our budget).

Yeah, no.

France is rebuilding like crazy all the surviving ships it has. Well, that means not many. But they have to spend the money somewhere while they wait for something to be build, nay?

You crazies call it "regatta" with two Ts? Insanity. Everyone knows the proper term is regata. I even bet it's a Italian term the saxons borrowed when we were still relevant or something. *checks*

Oh God, it's venetian. Discard that, Venetians are freakin' barbarians. Could you have not taken, I don't know, a Genoese term?

But we go for the win, of course. For Prestige! The US and Germany now both somewhat dislike us. A war with the US would be interesting, they are quite the equal for us. It would be a mess thanks to the fact that BOTH the Pacific and the Atlantis theater would need ships, but those are the risks.

No. No. And no. The same turn we get some sweet advances, like weight savings in armour and more effective secondary gun turrets for our BBs. Like, just some months after we started building a new class.

Drat.

Defeating Austria would be a interesting thing. On one side, operating in the Med would be a mess, and we would need British bases (our alliance will expire soon, I fear) but, well, it's Austria.

Seeing how some of our older CLs are unrefittable and how the budget is still good, I order a new class. WE REQUIRE ADDITIONAL CRUISERS

WE REQUIRE ADDITIONAL CRUISERS

The Griden is a bit weighty, but it's well armed and rather fast. I'll build two, at a slow pace. We still need money for our future BC project.

Greeeat. More space for the Motherland!

Greeat! More spies caught by the American secret services!

Well, now we can plan for our 30k tons Battlecruisers. At this point, I'd like to ask to my dear captains if they have any design ideas for Battlecruisers. I freely admit it's a class of ships that I never "got", and even my late game fleets managed to truck on fairly well without them, bar the random failed battle when they caught one of my Cruisers alone.

For the overall strategical situation, we need a year and half to get our new BBs and CLs, andthe worst tensions are with Germany and the US. I reckon a war with ze Germans is the most propable outcome if we don't act, but the RNG REFUSES to give us chances to engage the Japanese.

So, another question:

1) Fuck the Germans. They want a rematch? They'll have a rematch!

2) Fuck the US. Death to the upstart anglo saxon monkeys.

3) Peace with both US and Germany. We will try to increase tension with ..... (don't say Japan, it will never happen).

Consider that the overall tension levels are rather low, so few chances of a war soon. And after 12 years and 8 months, we have now passed the midgame. And rather well, I may add: two wars won decisively, a tech lead and rather good ships. The problem is still that the economical strength of Russia is limited, particularly compared with the US juggernaut.

And goddammit, I truly managed to get a LP halfway in. Thanks, readers, at least someone bothers to read my ramblings.

 

[Kalin]

Take back Alaska!

 

[Luka-boy]

Remove Bratswurst. They should be an easier target and the extra prestige/budget might help with a future war with the USA or the Brits.