Level scaling should be scaled to equipment level

[Clockwork Knight]

Funny, this make no sense, lets say i put my thor hammer and all my other caracters are in rags, i enter a area and pff dead :D, next time i will enter with rags and all monters will be low lvl, bad idea...

It makes sense in the way that you'll think twice about carrying valuables around without the means to protect yourself, like irl.

 

[GarfunkeL]

How did you rape Navarro so easily CK? Did you have Bozar or something? I went there with combat armour and sniper rifle + M60 and it was damn hard killing all those Enclave troops. As soon as I looted my first power armour it became easier but I still used quite a lot of stimpaks. And I had done most of the quests in F2 by that stage so it's not that my char was underpowered.

In any case, yes, there is that problem that, depending on the game, at certain point the combat challenge diminishes or even disappears. In F1 is after you get hardened power armour and boosted plasma rifle - only danger to you after that are large groups of super mutants with big guns getting criticals on your ass. Similarly, in many JRPGs its very possible to grow your party strong enough (thanks to optional stuff) that they simply breeze through the final dungeon / boss.

Hmm, I forgot my point. I'll get back to you.

 

[FeelTheRads]

You get new spells, abilities, loot, etc.

What for? In your dream game I could have killed the same enemies at level 1. Just so I see some new special effects or what?

Combat should be about TACTICS, not overleveling.

We're not talking about linear games you dumbfuck. Who forces you to go back fighting level 1 enemies? If you want to keep a steady challenge then don't fill the obligatory areas with weak enemies, very simple.
And both obligatory and optional areas should have a mix of both strong and weak enemies. Otherwise level progression is useless.

The later areas are always going to have more elite mobs.

So... instead of giving you powerful enemies, the game will just throw MORE enemies at you. Yeah, awesome.

The problem comes later, when I reach a point where the game just can't keep up anymore. Some people here feel it's a sign of progress, I feel it's a sign of zzzzzz

I would be more bored if the fights were always the same level of difficulty. I don't want to spend 10 minutes fighting a bunch of rats like I did when I was level 1 if I decide to go to a rat infested area again.
This is a balance problem and the ham-fisted solution of level scaling is not really a solution at all. See above about the game simply making you fight more enemies just to make it more difficult.
A proper balance and a properly set level cap works much better without destroying level progression and going into the absurd.

 

[Melcar]

How did you rape Navarro so easily CK? Did you have Bozar or something? I went there with combat armour and sniper rifle + M60 and it was damn hard killing all those Enclave troops. As soon as I looted my first power armour it became easier but I still used quite a lot of stimpaks. And I had done most of the quests in F2 by that stage so it's not that my char was underpowered.

...

It's actually very easy with a hand to hand stealth ninja guy (and I'm not talking with any of that Slayer bullshit).

 

[GarfunkeL]

Ah, I've never tried a stealth build yet. THERE WE GO, yet one more F1+F2 playthrough!

 

[Clockwork Knight]

How did you rape Navarro so easily CK? Did you have Bozar or something? I went there with combat armour and sniper rifle + M60 and it was damn hard killing all those Enclave troops. As soon as I looted my first power armour it became easier but I still used quite a lot of stimpaks. And I had done most of the quests in F2 by that stage so it's not that my char was underpowered.

Gauss rifle and Advanced power armor mk. II, I think. Character wasn't powerleveled or anything. As soon as you get power armors, you can stop paying attention to combat, since only freak criticals can kill you.

Similarly, in many JRPGs its very possible to grow your party strong enough (thanks to optional stuff) that they simply breeze through the final dungeon / boss.

Mymost recent experience was with Tales of Symphonia. I actually changed back to the wooden swords (first weapon for main character) just so the last fight would take longer than 30 seconds(he was already weakened though, since you can choose to fight the machines that he'll wear as a power armor separately on the final dungeon, so when he uses them they'll be weaker and with less defenses).

Then again, I had trouble with some regular bosses through the game (Floating Three-Headed-Dragon-Island thing made me put the difficulty slider on normal, but then he got too easy), and the optional late game bosses.

 

[Reject_666_6]

Lots of haters in this thread. If you can't see that there are at least some benefits to some kind of limited scaling alongside fixed encounter design, you're genetically deficient. The fact that consoletarded games abuse it doesn't make it as bad as you trannies make it sound.

 

[Black Cat]

@ Reject_666_6

"a generic glass-cannon type spellcaster?"

Spells in her spellbooks? In most setting, even when not an actual game mechanic, it is kind of implied spells can be copied from a book to another, so a witch or wizard knowing rare or costly spells, banned spells, regulated spells, or even custom ones depending on research not open to anyone would tempt any spellcaster in the area to either try to steal her spellbook, loot her spellbook, or not totally legally bargain for the contents.

Though with spellcasters and wizards even the traditional method kind of makes sense since one way or another the spellbook of a high level wizard is implied to contain much more than castable spells, so you can make it work either way.

 

[obediah]

Lots of haters in this thread. If you can't see that there are at least some benefits to some kind of limited scaling alongside fixed encounter design, you're genetically deficient. The fact that consoletarded games abuse it doesn't make it as bad as you trannies make it sound.

Like glorious Dragon Age? That could have done away with stats, equipment and progression completely and played almost exactly the same? Devs spend so much time protecting retards from RPG mechanics, that they should just remove them. As long as they have facegen they can still call it an RPG and everyone will be happier.

 

[DraQ]

I like totally ignored this monk stuffies and nya.

Yes, you just did.

Lots of haters in this thread. If you can't see that there are at least some benefits to some kind of limited scaling alongside fixed encounter design, you're genetically deficient. The fact that consoletarded games abuse it doesn't make it as bad as you trannies make it sound.

I already mentioned that it can be useful in small amounts - to drop or bump up the encounter level by one or two to accommodate smoother gameplay and less grind, or to power up some particularly legendary enemy when he is endangered with being pushover.

Doesn't change it being shit in any less specific applications.

 

[Black Cat]

@ DraQ

So? I never said otherwise. I was just giving a viewpoint on a particular case he mentioned, not actually defending the original idea. I don't know a lot about Monks since i never play them.

 

[Lumpy]

So, you lovable morons you, what is the point of stat progression if it does exactly the opposite of what you want? If you want the challenge to stay exactly the same, can't you just have the character start out and stay at level 15?
Fucking retards. You are e-dumb.

 

[SuicideBunny]

So, you lovable morons you, what is the point of stat progression if it does exactly the opposite of what you want? If you want the challenge to stay exactly the same, can't you just have the character start out and stay at level 15?
Fucking retards. You are e-dumb.

a) this
b) the only tolerable form of level scaling is the natural progression of getting access to continuously harder tasks if you succeed at the easier ones. but those harder ones need to be designed differently, not just the same with more mofo adversaries.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Yes, if the difficulty increase is merely bumping up the HP of enemies, it's rather silly.

Level/gear-scaling like in Oblivion and ME is ridiculous because it takes the RPG mechanics mostly out of the game - they are meaningless. Having some leeway, like in NWN/NWN2 is decent; the encounter with a group of orcs will always be a group of orcs but depending on your level there can be just 3 grunts or maybe its 9 grunts with a shaman.

But not every fight has to be incredibly challenging, just-by-the-skin-of-your-teeth survivable thing.

 

[Lumpy]

And true enough, level scaling could exist in the case of assassins or other people trying to kill you - but those encounters, if they exist, should be extremely hard, given that those people, as they followed you, should have a reasonable chance to kill you.

Oh, and also, for fuck's sake, if an Assassin's Guild is trying to kill you, why do they always send agents one level below you all the way from level 2 to level 30?

 

[Reject_666_6]

Lots of haters in this thread. If you can't see that there are at least some benefits to some kind of limited scaling alongside fixed encounter design, you're genetically deficient. The fact that consoletarded games abuse it doesn't make it as bad as you trannies make it sound.

I already mentioned that it can be useful in small amounts - to drop or bump up the encounter level by one or two to accommodate smoother gameplay and less grind, or to power up some particularly legendary enemy when he is endangered with being pushover.

Doesn't change it being shit in any less specific applications.

This is exactly the way I wanted it, QFT, this, bare quote, etc.

 

[crufty]

proper design doesn't require level scaling

it's cheap

 

[Dezzy]

Level scaling defeats the whole purpose of leveling. Leveling up is supposed to be our character(s) getting better, and it should feel that way.

If I hit level 50, and the local wolves scale up to me, we might as well have just stayed level 1, because it's no different in the end.

 

[Jim Profit]

Level based systems are bad as a whole. I prefer real time combat. The perfect combat system would be a weapon oriented game where weapons break and need to repair or just by new ones.

If you want to increase your dodge rate or HP, you should purchase armors instead of level grinding. As well, different weapons have different stats and usefulness, but you better be careful about spam cause you'd hate for your badass weapon to break before a boss fight.



But from what I'm guessing, your complaint is the monsters aren't difficult enough. In which case my guess is you are a crazy person. If you desire more difficulty, there's many ways to do that without ruining it for the rest of us.

 

[SuicideBunny]

proper design doesn't require level scaling

it's cheap

proper design doesn't require levels.

 

[deuxhero]

I could see it working in say... a sci-fi trading game (only small craft are going to be able to catch up with your puny hauler, but every pirate in the galaxy will want to take a crack at your huge store of unobtanium), but not to well in fantasy.


Level scaling should ideally not exist period. If I'm level 9999, I should be enjoying my power and trying to reincarnate a few times to kill Baal and the other bonus bosses, not having LOL EPICZ!11two1 fights against minor foes.

 

[CrimHead]

 

[ghostdog]

Level scal-

No. Shut the fuck up.

 

[DraQ]

Level based systems are bad as a whole. I prefer real time combat.

Jean Luc Picard.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Stop replying to Jim Profit or he'll start thinking he's a real person.