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Loverslab Puts Grimoire To Shame (OR Reapa is an idiot: The Thread!)

Discussion in 'Golden Era Games' started by Reapa, Aug 16, 2017.

  1. Reapa Doom Preacher

    Reapa
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    Those Familiar with the mod Cursed Loot for Skyrim will fondly remember how cursed items were automatically equipped by that mod to the player character and were often quite hard to get rid of in addition to being a pain in the ass by taking up armor slots without offering any protection or even filling up holes people needed for other activities.

    So when we talk about incline in regards to Grimoire, are we honest about what it actually brings to the table or are we just so hyped about an old game finally getting released that we give it a pass on mechanics?

    I'd be perfectly willing to forgive the game for having crappy combat if it were a game like Arcanum with its huge amount of C&C, Morrowind with its clear focus on exploration or Planescape: Torment with its ingeniously quirky and colorful and deep recruitable characters.

    But Grimoire is a blobber. Its very core is party based combat.
    It comes as a disappointment when that very aspect is not just slightly flawed but a complete clusterfuck:

    Casters aren't restricted to spell schools that reflect the focus of their class and are instead able to learn any spells the player wants them to learn. For a party based role playing game this is vomit inducing.

    Bards start learning spells at level 3 making them casters for no reason and without any explanation. Not sure why warriors don't also naturally become casters as well. it seems to me the game wants you to use that mana bar it provides with any and all characters.

    The worst thing about conditions is that you may fail to see you have any cause of the UI. the conditions themselves are trivially easy to get rid of and pose no danger with the amount of spell casters you have at your disposal all with the ability to learn curative spells.

    Cursed items are too easy to recognize, don't attach themselves automatically to characters and are as trivial to remove as conditions.

    So instead of weakening members of your party and making you have to try to overcome these weaknesses with tactics, the game relies on crappy enemies with either overpowered spells or so many attacks per turn it just doesn't make any sense.

    And don't worry, if you lose any party members don't reload or revive them, just recruit NPCs. They join for free and are much better than any character you may have spent minutes to hours on at character creation, effectively rendering any thought you put into them meaningless.

    I won't get into obvious bugs and oversights. I'm making a point based on these few but fundamentally bad design decisions. the point is the game is great as a walking simulator with its numerous maps but with crappy party based combat a bad blobber and with crappy and/or meaningless character creation and evolution a bad RPG.

    i rate it wasted potential / 10.
     
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  2. Nekot-The-Brave Prestigious Gentleman Arcane Patron

    Nekot-The-Brave
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    PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Warriors do learn spells.
     
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  3. Reapa Doom Preacher

    Reapa
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    that makes it even worse.
     
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  4. Iznaliu Arbiter

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    I rate you wasted potential/10.
     
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  5. Crispy Who's really in charge here? Undisputed Queen of Faggotry

    Crispy
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    So you installed a mod knowing it's going to give you cursed items that you can't get rid of and you... like that?

    If I'm not mistaken you just put Grimoire on the same table as Skyrim and are somehow trying to compare the two in terms of incline. I.. I don't know what to say to that specifically. Uh...

    Well if you wouldn't continue comparing games that are so fundamentally different from one another maybe you wouldn't have to forgive anything.

    Well, let's just see about that:

    This is flat-out false. Wizards can't learn Necromancy right off the bat, for example. Sages have their restrictions as do clerics. Not sure what you're talking about.

    Bards have traditionally been able to use spells in most RPG's that I can remember. They've always been jacks-of-all-trades. Just playing that Lute of Slumber every round gets boring, you know.

    They actually do, eventually. But at the point in the game that they do, if you're wasting valuable combat rounds having them attempt to not *FIZZLE* a Charm at Level one spell strength you're doing it wrong.

    You're free to try. If you're stupid.

    What?

    What you call trivial many others call "a pain in the ass", at least at the beginning portions of the game. But the time you're able to Neutralize Poison and Cure Disease without too much of a drain on your precious spell points (you are playing on at least Veteran, aren't you?) you've had to preciously hoard those apples and leaches, often praying you won't run out of them. I still keep plenty of them in reserve just in case. Doesn't seem trivial to me.

    Not sure what you want here. Would you rather have to complete some quest to get rid of a Bone Dagger? I actually got fooled once and was pleasantly surprised when what I thought looked like a great item was suddenly CURSED! I laughed out loud and had my cleric cast Remove Curse. This is standard fare for RPG's.

    The only real alternative you seem to be suggesting is to have to download and install some mod that features gigantic spiked cocks and shit like-- oh, you were kidding about that I guess.

    Personally I'd rather have enemies who posed greater and greater challenges to my party rather than having them gimped by some arbitrary or tedious "conditions", "curses", whatever. I get afflicted with something, I remove it. Maybe have to rest again. Fine. But to have those kinds of conditions stick to me, nagging me, no idea how to remove them? Fuck that. I'd rather fight a wizard who manages to evoke fireballs from his wand after I silence him. The latter seems more fair to me.

    Maybe the NPC's are there just for the casual or lazy player? It's a well-known fact that the early game is a breeze after adding Little Rosy. No thanks, I'd prefer my own team. The A-Team. *queue music*

    What a train wreck of a paragraph but clearly your point is that the only redeeming quality of Grimoire is its exploration to which I LOL heartily considering its simple 32x32 grid maps. Are you serious? A walking simulator?

    Maybe this type of game just isn't for you. I recommend going back to your Lover's Lab mods in Skyrim.
     
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  6. Reapa Doom Preacher

    Reapa
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    i also like it that DCSS has a mutation system that can give you good and bad mutations. the fact that you can't understand how a game can be more fun with actual consequences to stuff like diseases instead of just casting a spell and resting to restore your mana or eating an apple to immediately get rid of your disease tells me it's you who should go back to skyrim.
    i was not comparing 2 games. i was presenting a mechanic that would offer some challenge other than the usual hp sponge and one hit you see everywhere. i'm surprised you didn't reload after equipping the cursed knife, you fucking moron of utter decline.
     
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  7. udm Arcane Patron

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    Sig-worthy material :lol:
     
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  8. mondblut Arcane

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    Wrong. Party based combat is the core of tactical RPGs. The core of blobbers is dungeon exploration, and Grimoire does is better than anything since Wizardry 7.

    That wasn't the case in any earlier version and will probably be acknowledged as a bug that needs to be fixed.

    Can you into genre savvy? Bards are hybrid mage/thieves in pretty much every single RPG.

    They do :negative: Questionable decision, but you are likely to finish the game around level 10, which is when they get their first spell. 1-dice sleep won't help them much in the endgame.

    Tell that to all those players who had TPK because of rampant disease on level one.

    That aside, this applies to every RPG in existence. You absolutely must have a dedicated healer, his absolute priority has to be getting all the status-removing spells like cure disease, paralyze, poison and what have you, and once you do, you no longer give a fuck about them. Unless it is healer who got paralyzed, well, tough luck then.

    I do agree that many nastier conditions like paralysis, insanity etc mustn't disappear over time, that trivializes anything but disease when you can just sleep them off with disabled random encounters.

    As opposed to what game exactly? I don't remember any RPG stupid enough to autoequip cursed items - it's always up to the player to take the risk. And there is always a Remove Curse to take them off. Have you even played anything but "Arcanum with its huge amount of C&C, Morrowind with its clear focus on exploration or Planescape: Torment with its ingeniously quirky and colorful and deep recruitable characters"?
     
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  9. mondblut Arcane

    mondblut
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    Spellbooks obv.
     
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  10. Reapa Doom Preacher

    Reapa
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    1. sorry, but it is you who is wrong here. a blobber is as far as i know an RPG with a party that moves as one. therefore it's core aspect is party based combat. MMX for example was pretty much open world with a dungeon here and there. it even had surface towns. it was in the open. same goes for quite a few other blobbers which are not necessarily dungeon crawlers like other M&Ms and wizardry 7 and wizardry 8 and even wizardry 6 for that mater. if you confuse blobber with dungeon crawler, that's your problem. refusing to acknowledge grimoire fails as a good party based combat game is pointless. you are not fooling anyone.
    2. i'm not holding my breath.
    3. i did not complain about the bards being able to pick locks or pockets. but making them cast spells in addition to playing music and stealing is a bit much and strikes me as a bit odd. if they have access to magic (a talent for magic) why the fuck would they waste time learning to play instruments instead of becoming wizards?
    4. the "everyone is a caster" approach is a fundamentally flawed one in my eyes.
    5. there are leeches and apples everywhere. i started using them with higher levels instead of magic just to clear inventory space. if you make a party of fucking 8 people and don't manage to teach any one of them "detect secrets" in a game full of secrets, you're a fucking moron. i don't argue about healers being able to heal, but a more realistic approach would be to cure the disease with a spell in time. count it as treated and let's have 3 days pass before fully cured. if people choose to camp 3 days, fuck them. i'd rather try to push forward with a treated disease. + the whole condition shtick is kinda cheapened by how often it occurs. a bite from a worm should not always result in a disease. let it happen only once in a while and be a little more sticky.
    6. as opposed to the very introduction of this thread where i said there's a mod for skyrim called "cursed loot" that equips a cursed item to the player character when such an item is found. remove curse should not be as easy as casting a spell. maybe a spell with a material component. magic is often tied to rituals, sacrifices and special plants or minerals. you got a cursed item that drains health and your character died wearing it but you still haven't found the plant to cure it even though you managed to learn the spell. fuck you! go out there with one less party member and fucking explore the game until you do.
    it takes balls to make a game that will make it hard for the player to finish it. cleve doesn't seem to have those balls and it's sad.
     
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  11. buru5 Very Grumpy Dragon Patron

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    "I'm not getting enough attention on the RPG forums, what should I do? Oh. I got it! Insult the best RPG ever made! That'll do it! I'm so clever!"
     
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  12. mondblut Arcane

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    You seriously think painting the maze walls green and the ceiling blue changes a dungeon crawler into something else? A "forest" dungeon or a "city" dungeon is still a dungeon.

    Funny you mentioned Wizardry 6, which doesn't even bother painting. It just says, "uh, look... this maze level is "swamp", see? It's not a dungeon. It's a swamp, because...uh, we say so." Come on.

    No pure blobber has "good party based combat". Wizardry is not good party based combat, neither is M&M, nor Bard's Tale for this matter. Blobber combat is comparing two sets of numbers.

    If they ever played Grimoire, they know playing instruments is far more effective :smug:

    Bards can cast spells in AD&D, they can cast spells in Wizardry. Why warriors can have hybrid caster classes like rangers and paladins (or lords and samurai and valkyries and what have you, if we talk Wizardry) but thieves are not supposed to?

    You can quickly run out of leeches and apples early in the game. Once your sage or cleric gets to level 4, it no longer matters, true. As is in any game that has diseases and a spell to cure them - the moment you finally learn it, those priceless cure potions are suddenly vendor trash. Nothing new here.

    This is not Unreal World or Realms of Arkania. Disease treating sim is not a part of the game. A disease is just a dangerous negative condition that can be removed with spell or a curative... just like in Wizardry, M&M or any D&D game. Whom Grimoire follows and painstakingly imitates, duh.

    Well, tell that to Gygax & Arneson, or to Greenberg & Woodhead. Grimoire's "Remove curse" spell is not exactly new. It's rather pointless to criticize the game for not being something it never aspired nor claimed to be.
     
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  13. Reapa Doom Preacher

    Reapa
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    :notsureifserious:
    yes. i did. many games will screw with you and your plans. they will force you to explore with a less than ideal setup, make difficult decisions, sacrifices... most of those games are rogue likes. choosing to make a turn based game comes with the responsibility of making the fights interesting. but that doesn't mean every enemy has to be able to one shoot your characters and/or be a hp sponge. that's the laziest way. the good way would be to make use of the mechanics you have implemented to make it difficult to survive more than a few fights in a row without making changes to your party setup, without using your consumables, without putting some thought into the game beyond rolling for highest numbers at character creation. with 8 party members and potential recruits grimoire comes close to battle brothers when it comes to party size. but battle brothers has injuries. battle brothers has degrading equipment. battle brothers has perma death. what does grimoire have? diseases and apples to cure them. are you beginning to see what i'm criticizing here? or is it still not obvious enough how trivial the game is?
     
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  14. Turisas Arch Devil Patron

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    I expected to see some pixel titties in this thread. :rpgcodex:
     
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  15. Reapa Doom Preacher

    Reapa
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    so it was never meant to be more than a clone. i can live with that. even though cleve said something about this game being a lot better than any other of its kind. i guess it does have fast travel. maybe that's what is supposed to make it better. :smug:
     
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  16. Reapa Doom Preacher

    Reapa
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    you shall not hunger in my threads
    [​IMG]
     
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  17. mondblut Arcane

    mondblut
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    You are criticizing a faithful successor to Wizardry for being a faithful successor to Wizardry instead of some other totally different game from another genre. That's funny.

    (and it has degrading equipment of sorts. glittering dust traps and oreworm acid vomit can destroy your items. at one point after Raptor Grotto I suddenly realized nobody in my party has any pants left. and new pants are pretty hard to find! also, falling can break your fragile items. but that can be prevented by feather fall spell/item instead of a continent-spanning quest to invent parachute, so it doesn't count, amirite?)
     
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  18. Reapa Doom Preacher

    Reapa
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    obviously. being a successor doesn't mean it can't introduce new stuff. ece: fast travel. ece: auto heal. ece: new races and classes. ece: new bugs and issues.
    your arguments are weak, sir.

    it seems to me some people here have actually waited 20 years for grimoire to come out and never touched another game in all that time. and cleve himself only worked on fixing bugs those 20 years. when weapon and armor degradation, injury systems, or even a meaningful implementation of its own conditions system is met with such apologetic arguments, this is the only sensible conclusion.

    (yeah, i know. some items do break. some enemies do break them. some conditions are even more laughable the the ones i mentioned so far. the game has lychanthropy as a condition that goes away with rest.)
     
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  19. mondblut Arcane

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    There is new stuff that adds to the game and there is new stuff that sends it spinning in totally different direction. Making Fallout an FPS was "introducing new stuff" too.

    There were any? Not in this genre, I reckon. Jap abominations which never got it right do not count.

    The game was content-complete by 2005.
     
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  20. Reapa Doom Preacher

    Reapa
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    starting to question your sanity now.
    M&MX is not that old. neither is heroes of a broken land.
    the game is not complete now. how was it complete 2005? or is crafting an afterthought but you still consider it a faithful successor?
     
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  21. Snorkack Arcane

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    Speaking badly about grimoire has great triggering power it seems.

    It was my biggest fear when this game got released, that it will turn out as something that fakes complexity instead of offering it. Kinda like the glassbox engine of sim city 5 with its faux simulation , or the tactics menu of Football Manager (EA) that had absolutely no effect whatsoever.
    I blamed balancing issues for the out-of-whack gameplay of grimoire, but following the release thread, nothing that couldn't be handled with proper playtesting and few months of patching. But following the release thread, I get the impression that many stats and systems really do nothing at all and are just there to feign a feeling of complex systems. Imo thats worse than any UI issues, bad sound and severe balance issues.
     
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  22. mondblut Arcane

    mondblut
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    Modernized, casual-friendly crap.

    I did not say it was "complete". It was content-complete. Sure you should know the difference.

    It doesn't work, thus estimated damage to faithfulness is zero :P
     
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  23. Reapa Doom Preacher

    Reapa
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    what exactly is M&MX guilty of in terms of casual friendliness?
    why are your hands shaking?
    for some reason you skipped this argument i had already made:
    obviously. being a successor doesn't mean it can't introduce new stuff. ece: fast travel. ece: auto heal. ece: new races and classes. ece: new bugs and issues.
    your arguments are weak, sir.
    damage to faithfulness is definitely not zero and will increase with time. but i would still rather have better combat than crafting.
     
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  24. Crispy Who's really in charge here? Undisputed Queen of Faggotry

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    lol thread title edit
     
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  25. Reapa Doom Preacher

    Reapa
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    lol, you just loled, dude.
    good times.
     
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