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Loverslab Puts Grimoire To Shame (OR Reapa is an idiot: The Thread!)

Casual Hero

Augur
Joined
Mar 24, 2015
Messages
489
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USA
Eh, Might and Magic X is kind of casual. I don't really mean that in a demeaning way, it could be taken that way, but compared to the core Might and Magic games it is based off of, it simplifies a lot. Then again, Might and Magic was all about simplicity.
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Ingrija
what exactly is M&MX guilty of in terms of casual friendliness?

All M&M past 2 are massive casualfests and baby's first blobber comparing to Wizardry. X has simpleton game mechanics, predictable, repetetive and SLOW combat whose single one-trick pony of a challenge is "lol, enemies suddenly surround you from all sides, betcha didn't expect that 15 minutes since the last time!". Environmental challenges pretty much don't exist. In short, turn-based Legend of Dumbrock.

why are your hands shaking?

Cuz your mom was a rollercoaster in bed.

for some reason you skipped this argument i had already made:
obviously. being a successor doesn't mean it can't introduce new stuff. ece: fast travel. ece: auto heal. ece: new races and classes. ece: new bugs and issues.
your arguments are weak, sir.

For some reason you fail at reading:

There is new stuff that adds to the game and there is new stuff that sends it spinning in totally different direction. Making Fallout an FPS was "introducing new stuff" too.

damage to faithfulness is definitely not zero and will increase with time. but i would still rather have better combat than crafting.

If it would go full retardo with crafting top quality items, that would do damage faithfulness to the game strongly driven by need to find unique powerful artifacts, true. If it's limited to making minor consumables and adding temporary boosts like "sharpened" and "poisoned", I don't see a problem there. And in so far as it doesn't exist at all yet, neither is the problem to begin with.
 

Reapa

Doom Preacher
Joined
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Messages
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what exactly is M&MX guilty of in terms of casual friendliness?

All M&M past 2 are massive casualfests and baby's first blobber comparing to Wizardry. X has simpleton game mechanics, predictable, repetetive and SLOW combat whose single one-trick pony of a challenge is "lol, enemies suddenly surround you from all sides, betcha didn't expect that 15 minutes since the last time!". Environmental challenges pretty much don't exist. In short, turn-based Legend of Dumbrock.

why are your hands shaking?

Cuz your mom was a rollercoaster in bed.

for some reason you skipped this argument i had already made:
obviously. being a successor doesn't mean it can't introduce new stuff. ece: fast travel. ece: auto heal. ece: new races and classes. ece: new bugs and issues.
your arguments are weak, sir.

For some reason you fail at reading:

There is new stuff that adds to the game and there is new stuff that sends it spinning in totally different direction. Making Fallout an FPS was "introducing new stuff" too.

damage to faithfulness is definitely not zero and will increase with time. but i would still rather have better combat than crafting.

If it would go full retardo with crafting top quality items, that would do damage faithfulness to the game strongly driven by need to find unique powerful artifacts, true. If it's limited to making minor consumables and adding temporary boosts like "sharpened" and "poisoned", I don't see a problem there. And in so far as it doesn't exist at all yet, neither is the problem to begin with.
not sure grimoire is as complex as wizardry 6 or 7. not sure it makes any sense yet to even multi class. not sure you even lift, bro.
to me it looks like a lot of stats with very little to no effect. a lot of chests with the same crappy content. a lot of bosses you either stun lock or lose to a hundred hits/turn. a lot of conditions that pose no real danger. a lot of forced larping instead of min-maxing or even just role playing.
 

Klysandral

Barely Literate
Joined
Aug 17, 2017
Messages
2
I wonder what is so "hardcore" about Grimoire when compared to MMX?

1. Cluncky UI: I guess bad UI is considered here as "hardcore"?

2. Complicated Maps: The maps of Grimoire are quite small and simple, they are nothing like those of Etrian Odssey, Eliminage Gothic, or the earlier Wizardries. MMX's maps are certainly of similar complexity.

3. Difficult Quests: Most of Grimoire's quests are easy to solve. One or two quests may require some thoughts, but the rest are straightforward.

4. Challenging Combat: Except for the first level, my party is steamrolling the contents (up to 2nd half now) in Superhuman difficulty. There is no challenge what so ever. I heard there are a couple of bosses that are tough, but two out of thousands of battles are too insignificant.

5. Many Stats & Skills: Well, Grimoire indeed has tons of stats & skills. But since most of the stats and skills offer no in-game impact and a few are too powerful, we don't really know how hardcore they can be before Cleve fixes and balances them. But at this time, they don't seem anywhere near hardcore.

Grimoire seems hardcore only because of its similarity with Wizardry 6 and 7 on the surface. I would like to hear others' opinions.
 

Casual Hero

Augur
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Messages
489
Location
USA
I wonder what is so "hardcore" about Grimoire when compared to MMX?

1. Cluncky UI: I guess bad UI is considered here as "hardcore"?

2. Complicated Maps: The maps of Grimoire are quite small and simple, they are nothing like those of Etrian Odssey, Eliminage Gothic, or the earlier Wizardries. MMX's maps are certainly of similar complexity.

3. Difficult Quests: Most of Grimoire's quests are easy to solve. One or two quests may require some thoughts, but the rest are straightforward.

4. Challenging Combat: Except for the first level, my party is steamrolling the contents (up to 2nd half now) in Superhuman difficulty. There is no challenge what so ever. I heard there are a couple of bosses that are tough, but two out of thousands of battles are too insignificant.

5. Many Stats & Skills: Well, Grimoire indeed has tons of stats & skills. But since most of the stats and skills offer no in-game impact and a few are too powerful, we don't really know how hardcore they can be before Cleve fixes and balances them. But at this time, they don't seem anywhere near hardcore.

Grimoire seems hardcore only because of its similarity with Wizardry 6 and 7 on the surface. I would like to hear others' opinions.
Ah, look! Baby's first post. <3
 

vonAchdorf

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2014
Messages
13,465
Speaking badly about grimoire has great triggering power it seems.

It was my biggest fear when this game got released, that it will turn out as something that fakes complexity instead of offering it. Kinda like the glassbox engine of sim city 5 with its faux simulation , or the tactics menu of Football Manager (EA) that had absolutely no effect whatsoever.
I blamed balancing issues for the out-of-whack gameplay of grimoire, but following the release thread, nothing that couldn't be handled with proper playtesting and few months of patching. But following the release thread, I get the impression that many stats and systems really do nothing at all and are just there to feign a feeling of complex systems. Imo thats worse than any UI issues, bad sound and severe balance issues.

In RoA it helps with replayability ;) You play through 3 games, then figure out that there are no horses ever for your party and can start over without heavily investing in your riding skill.
 

Lady_Error

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1,879,250
Reapa decided to step up his whining?

Casters aren't restricted to spell schools that reflect the focus of their class and are instead able to learn any spells the player wants them to learn. For a party based role playing game this is vomit inducing.

Wrong. If it's not a spell book for your class, you get a message that says so.

Bards start learning spells at level 3 making them casters for no reason and without any explanation. Not sure why warriors don't also naturally become casters as well. it seems to me the game wants you to use that mana bar it provides with any and all characters.

Bards work exactly the same way as in Wizardry.

The worst thing about conditions is that you may fail to see you have any cause of the UI. the conditions themselves are trivially easy to get rid of and pose no danger with the amount of spell casters you have at your disposal all with the ability to learn curative spells.

Conditions for each character ARE visible next to their avatar in the OK box. Disease is actually very quickly progressing and those apples don't last too long either, not to mention you have to figure out that they remove disease in the first place.

Cursed items are too easy to recognize, don't attach themselves automatically to characters and are as trivial to remove as conditions.

There is literally not a single game where cursed items attach themselves automatically. This is beyond retarded.

And don't worry, if you lose any party members don't reload or revive them, just recruit NPCs. They join for free

Wrong. You pay each NPC 100 gold per day. That information is right there on their character screen.
 

Reapa

Doom Preacher
Joined
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Messages
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Reapa decided to step up his whining?

Casters aren't restricted to spell schools that reflect the focus of their class and are instead able to learn any spells the player wants them to learn. For a party based role playing game this is vomit inducing.

Wrong. If it's not a spell book for your class, you get a message that says so.

Bards start learning spells at level 3 making them casters for no reason and without any explanation. Not sure why warriors don't also naturally become casters as well. it seems to me the game wants you to use that mana bar it provides with any and all characters.

Bards work exactly the same way as in Wizardry.

The worst thing about conditions is that you may fail to see you have any cause of the UI. the conditions themselves are trivially easy to get rid of and pose no danger with the amount of spell casters you have at your disposal all with the ability to learn curative spells.

Conditions for each character ARE visible next to their avatar in the OK box. Disease is actually very quickly progressing and those apples don't last too long either, not to mention you have to figure out that they remove disease in the first place.

Cursed items are too easy to recognize, don't attach themselves automatically to characters and are as trivial to remove as conditions.

There is literally not a single game where cursed items attach themselves automatically. This is beyond retarded.

And don't worry, if you lose any party members don't reload or revive them, just recruit NPCs. They join for free

Wrong. You pay each NPC 100 gold per day. That information is right there on their character screen.
you're a bit late to the party and forgot to bring your notes.
please be so kind as to show us that message you say you get when a thaumaturge learns to cure wounds or disease or even remove curses.
i know where conditions are shown. i said you may fail to see that a character has a condition due to how small the box is. omg, you actually have to identify stuff in this game and read the notes? i had no idea. i guess it's 10/10 Goty then.
you are beyond retarded. have you even read the title of the thread, never mind the actual original post clarification? or are you just shitposting wherever you see grimoire mentioned?
yeah, no, you don't pay shit. maybe you're playing grimoire v2.0. sadly i can only comment on 1.2.0.20 at the moment so it's a bit hard for me to argue with you about your mushroom induced hallucinations.
anyway, thanks for stopping by and dropping me a line. much appreciated.

ps. i'm really getting tired of the "wiz 7 also did it" line of argumentation.
 

Lady_Error

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Are you a fucking troll now?

please be so kind as to show us that message you say you get when a thaumaturge learns to cure wounds or disease or even remove curses.

Thaumaturges learn Cure Wounds from Level 1.

http://grimoire.wiki/index.php/Spells#Thaumaturge

i know where conditions are shown. i said you may fail to see that a character has a condition due to how small the box is.

Get better glasses then. Nobody besides you has a problem seeing the conditions.

ps. i'm really getting tired of the "wiz 7 also did it" line of argumentation.

That's because it is a spiritual sequel to that game, moron. So yes, it will do things similarly to Wiz 7.
 

Reapa

Doom Preacher
Joined
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Messages
2,340
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Are you a fucking troll now?

please be so kind as to show us that message you say you get when a thaumaturge learns to cure wounds or disease or even remove curses.

Thaumaturges learn Cure Wounds from Level 1.

http://grimoire.wiki/index.php/Spells#Thaumaturge

i know where conditions are shown. i said you may fail to see that a character has a condition due to how small the box is.

Get better glasses then. Nobody besides you has a problem seeing the conditions.

ps. i'm really getting tired of the "wiz 7 also did it" line of argumentation.

That's because it is a spiritual sequel to that game, moron. So yes, it will do things similarly to Wiz 7.
wait. you post the grimoire wiki that got written based on how grimoire works as an argument in a discussion about how it should work? and i'm the troll?
does it make sense to you that a character without litany is able to cure wounds and conditions and remove curses like a cleric?
funny how doing things similar to wiz 7 can always be used as an argument to defend grimoire against all criticism on not adding any improvements. but where it does do something different you can just wave it off cause it's just a spiritual successor not an actual clone. now how valid do you consider such a line of argumentation to be on a scale from fangirl to butthurt?
 

Lady_Error

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wait. you post the grimoire wiki that got written based on how grimoire works as an argument in a discussion about how it should work? and i'm the troll? does it make sense to you that a character without litany is able to cure wounds and conditions and remove curses like a cleric?

The Wiki lists the spells that each spellcaster class can learn on levelup. Cure Wounds is in the spellbook of several spellcasters, including Thaumaturges. They don't need Litany, because in their case Cure Wounds relies on their own spellcaster skill.

funny how doing things similar to wiz 7 can always be used as an argument to defend grimoire against all criticism on not adding any improvements. but where it does do something different you can just wave it off cause it's just a spiritual successor not an actual clone.

Nobody has "waved" anything off. You were shown to be wrong and uninformed on your "criticisms" time and time again, yet you continue with your whining. I have no idea why. It isn't "edgy and controversial", it's just pathetic.
 

Reapa

Doom Preacher
Joined
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Messages
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wait. you post the grimoire wiki that got written based on how grimoire works as an argument in a discussion about how it should work? and i'm the troll? does it make sense to you that a character without litany is able to cure wounds and conditions and remove curses like a cleric?

The Wiki lists the spells that each spellcaster class can learn on levelup. Cure Wounds is in the spellbook of several spellcasters, including Thaumaturges. They don't need Litany, because in their case Cure Wounds relies on their own spellcaster skill.

funny how doing things similar to wiz 7 can always be used as an argument to defend grimoire against all criticism on not adding any improvements. but where it does do something different you can just wave it off cause it's just a spiritual successor not an actual clone.

Nobody has "waved" anything off. You were shown to be wrong and uninformed on your "criticisms" time and time again, yet you continue with your whining. I have no idea why. It isn't "edgy and controversial", it's just pathetic.
they don't even have their own spell skill. you may want to verify that right away. they have no spell skills other than arcanum and as far as i know that's a special kind of spell skill with it's own line of spells. and while you verify that, please also do some testing on your theory with the gold you spend each day on recruited NPCs. because you have just been proven wrong on several statements. i don't know why you are projecting your lack of knowledge about the very game you are defending on me, but it doesn't work.
you are starting to overstay your welcome in my thread and get on my nerves with your bullshit. please go back to the grimoire release thread where you usually circle jerk with the rest of the newfag consoletards who think they found their messiah of complexity in a game with illusionary stats.
 

Lady_Error

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they don't even have their own spell skill. you may want to verify that right away. they have no spell skills other than arcanum and as far as i know that's a special kind of spell skill with it's own line of spells.

Wrong, as usual. The Thaumaturges are the alchemists and their spell skill is this:
  • Alchemistry The magical study of the four elements of fire, air, water and earth.
(06:Assassin,Berserker,Metalsmith,Ranger,Thaumaturge,Thief)

and while you verify that, please also do some testing on your theory with the gold you spend each day on recruited NPCs.

It's called Retainer, which your characters display as N/A while NPC's show that they get 100 gold. Cleve said that they are paid that every day. It's right under Killed %:

grimoire+character+screen.png


you are starting to overstay your welcome in my thread and get on my nerves with your bullshit.

You're simply pathetic at this point.
 

Reapa

Doom Preacher
Joined
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Messages
2,340
Location
Germany
they don't even have their own spell skill. you may want to verify that right away. they have no spell skills other than arcanum and as far as i know that's a special kind of spell skill with it's own line of spells.

Wrong, as usual. The Thaumaturges are the alchemists and their spell skill is this:
  • Alchemistry The magical study of the four elements of fire, air, water and earth.
(06:Assassin,Berserker,Metalsmith,Ranger,Thaumaturge,Thief)

and while you verify that, please also do some testing on your theory with the gold you spend each day on recruited NPCs.

It's called Retainer, which your characters display as N/A while NPC's show that they get 100 gold. Cleve said that they are paid that every day. It's right under Killed %:

grimoire+character+screen.png


you are starting to overstay your welcome in my thread and get on my nerves with your bullshit.

You're simply pathetic at this point.
right, there's alchemistry. my bad. fire, air, water and earth. does this enumeration contain any spirit? does it make sense for them to cure wounds, or even have any other spell schools available? mine has spells in astral, psyche, spirit and even infernal.
did i ask what cleave said about his game? no. i told you to go fucking look at how much money gets spent on recruited NPCs each day. god damn, you're fucking stupid.
it's 0
as much as i like debating stuff even with obvious morons, when they start repeating themselves it get's boring. can't we skip calling each other pathetic for a few hundred posts before we even start and just call it a day?
 

Lady_Error

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right, there's alchemistry. my bad. fire, air, water and earth. does this enumeration contain any spirit? does it make sense for them to cure wounds, or even have any other spell schools available? mine has spells in astral, psyche, spirit and even infernal.

You're a fucking goal post shifter.

1. All characters can learn all spells. Uh, wrong.
2. But Thaumaturges can learn Cure spells. Uh, it's in their spellbook.
3. But Thaumaturges don't have Litany. No, but they have Alchemistry.
4. But Alchemistry is about the four elements and not Spirit.

You're a constant whiner who always finds something to whine about. And yeah, the payments to recruited NPC's may still be bugged. Cry me a river.
 

Reapa

Doom Preacher
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Germany
right, there's alchemistry. my bad. fire, air, water and earth. does this enumeration contain any spirit? does it make sense for them to cure wounds, or even have any other spell schools available? mine has spells in astral, psyche, spirit and even infernal.

You're a fucking goal post shifter.

1. All characters can learn all spells. Uh, wrong.
2. But Thaumaturges can learn Cure spells. Uh, it's in their spellbook.
3. But Thaumaturges don't have Litany. No, but they have Alchemistry.
4. But Alchemistry is about the four elements and not Spirit.

You're a constant whiner who always finds something to whine about. And yeah, the payments to recruited NPC's may still be bugged. Cry me a river.
people will think we're in love.
 

warcrimes666

Educated
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Messages
93
You're arguments are poorly put together and largely subjective, which is why you're rightly being pilloried as a fetal alcohol syndrome baby. The only point you have that is worth anything at all is the lack of separation between spell schools. I agree spellcasters should not be able to learn all schools and they don't actually they merely overlap somewhat but in comments from cleve it seems to be an intended accessibility mechanic as a nod to those people who grow attached to their characters such that they can still experience more of the game. I don't have an issue where that is intended but at least that is something that is objectively noticeable and moreso is likely to be fixed to some degree at a later date. Not thread worthy to discuss that single point whatsoever.

This nonsense about cursed items, bards, and curing disease comes from a place of mongoloid level of retardation. It's difficult to fathom the reasoning outside of the aids virus swelling your brainstem considering the entire history of gaming. Cursed items have always been a player check against due diligence, you get horny and equip something early without identifying then go through a minor inconvenience to remove it. Ditto for disease, minor inconvenience at best outside of low level. Im not aware of a single game, rpg or otherwise, pc or pen and paper, in 30 years of gaming that treats cursed items in a manner that you described. Your argument here is pure fantasy. Pointing to a mod for a shit game that increased your subjective enjoyment is not evidence of an inherent flaw in design. Having cursed items equip automatically is not a mechanic as intended that you will ever experience in your life in a game that people actually like.

Bards have always been jack of all trades, with limited spellcasting. Heard of dungeons and dragons motherfucker? Getting a few entry level spells at level 3 is completely within the established framework of fantasy gaming since day 1 in any medium. Generally mildly useful to completely useless, they're only useful beyond trash status in grimoire due to 100% chance of status effects which also looks like its getting reworked. Regardless how they're put together, they're unnecessary to progess in any way. It's a personal choice to use one.

Grimoire is an excellent game,as is, and it is superior to wizardy 7, cleves stated goal, as well as every other blobber created in that era. Its not immune to criticism and deserves it in several areas. None of those valid areas are mentioned here and that's why you're being treated like an idiot. What you describe are wishful thinking mechanics specific to your subjective enjoyment that are completely outside established conventions therefore there is no argument at all. This is a dear diary for my first dream rpg but what it comes down to is no one would want to play it and you couldn't make a better game in 20 years. Power level is weak, someone get this nazi scum a senzu bean, stat.
 

Reapa

Doom Preacher
Joined
Jul 10, 2009
Messages
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Location
Germany
You're arguments are poorly put together and largely subjective, which is why you're rightly being pilloried as a fetal alcohol syndrome baby. The only point you have that is worth anything at all is the lack of separation between spell schools. I agree spellcasters should not be able to learn all schools and they don't actually they merely overlap somewhat but in comments from cleve it seems to be an intended accessibility mechanic as a nod to those people who grow attached to their characters such that they can still experience more of the game. I don't have an issue where that is intended but at least that is something that is objectively noticeable and moreso is likely to be fixed to some degree at a later date. Not thread worthy to discuss that single point whatsoever.

This nonsense about cursed items, bards, and curing disease comes from a place of mongoloid level of retardation. It's difficult to fathom the reasoning outside of the aids virus swelling your brainstem considering the entire history of gaming. Cursed items have always been a player check against due diligence, you get horny and equip something early without identifying then go through a minor inconvenience to remove it. Ditto for disease, minor inconvenience at best outside of low level. Im not aware of a single game, rpg or otherwise, pc or pen and paper, in 30 years of gaming that treats cursed items in a manner that you described. Your argument here is pure fantasy. Pointing to a mod for a shit game that increased your subjective enjoyment is not evidence of an inherent flaw in design. Having cursed items equip automatically is not a mechanic as intended that you will ever experience in your life in a game that people actually like.

Bards have always been jack of all trades, with limited spellcasting. Heard of dungeons and dragons motherfucker? Getting a few entry level spells at level 3 is completely within the established framework of fantasy gaming since day 1 in any medium. Generally mildly useful to completely useless, they're only useful beyond trash status in grimoire due to 100% chance of status effects which also looks like its getting reworked. Regardless how they're put together, they're unnecessary to progess in any way. It's a personal choice to use one.

Grimoire is an excellent game,as is, and it is superior to wizardy 7, cleves stated goal, as well as every other blobber created in that era. Its not immune to criticism and deserves it in several areas. None of those valid areas are mentioned here and that's why you're being treated like an idiot. What you describe are wishful thinking mechanics specific to your subjective enjoyment that are completely outside established conventions therefore there is no argument at all. This is a dear diary for my first dream rpg but what it comes down to is no one would want to play it and you couldn't make a better game in 20 years. Power level is weak, someone get this nazi scum a senzu bean, stat.
whose alt are you?
i see you mention several areas in which it deserves criticism. i don't see you expanding on that, though. what are you hiding?
it's still a myth that casters can't learn any spell. Lady Error was not gracious enough to provide proof for that error message she claims you get when trying to teach a caster a spell he shouldn't be able to learn. i never saw that error message. and you also provided no proof.
do you even grimoire or do you just shitpost?
either way, welcome to the codex.
now fuck off.
 

King Crispy

Too bad I have no queen.
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Strap Yourselves In
Yes, it's absolutely true that the dedicated spellcasters in Grimoire are free to SCRIBE any spell into their cast-able spell list that they choose to. Repeating the above, Cleve intended this. You are criticizing this design decision as part of your overall dissatisfaction of Grimoire and that's your prerogative. I just think it's a waste of time.

1. You have to find or buy the spellbook itself
2. Your Scribe skill has to be sufficient to learn the spell, which could take several level-ups and potentially could take away valuable skill points you might want elsewhere
3. You probably have to cast or have someone else cast Read Magic in order for that scribe attempt to be successful, and the possession of the spell Read Magic might take you back to step 1.

So you're right. This aspect of Grimoire seems to be somewhat loose in its adherence to conventional (D&D) RPG spell class differentiation. So the fuck what? I like it the way it is and I wouldn't change it.
 

Reapa

Doom Preacher
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Yes, it's absolutely true that the dedicated spellcasters in Grimoire are free to SCRIBE any spell into their cast-able spell list that they choose to. Repeating the above, Cleve intended this. You are criticizing this design decision as part of your overall dissatisfaction of Grimoire and that's your prerogative. I just think it's a waste of time.

1. You have to find or buy the spellbook itself
2. Your Scribe skill has to be sufficient to learn the spell, which could take several level-ups and potentially could take away valuable skill points you might want elsewhere
3. You probably have to cast or have someone else cast Read Magic in order for that scribe attempt to be successful, and the possession of the spell Read Magic might take you back to step 1.

So you're right. This aspect of Grimoire seems to be somewhat loose in its adherence to conventional (D&D) RPG spell class differentiation. So the fuck what? I like it the way it is and I wouldn't change it.
none of those drawbacks apply when using recruited NPCs. they have skill points. lots of them. which is another argument for how easy the game is.
read magic is not a bad spell investment, especially when you can use it to learn a whole lot of other spells and with a whole lot of other characters.
what else are you gonna do with that gold? why wouldn't you buy all available books for all your spell casters? it even raises their scribe spell when they learn spells from books. so even if you don't need the spells, why not raise the skill? many books are even dirt cheap.
of course you can just close your eyes and pretend the game is challenging by not taking advantage of a lot of stuff: musical mass stun locks, free musical mass dmg spells, recruiting NPCs, learning spells from books, using knock knock instead of a dedicated lock picking character and saving two hundred skill points in the process, letting the smith max identify all items for free...
i guess i just expected the game to fight me, not bend over and drop its pants.
 
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