[LP CYOA] 傳

The contrast isn't as horrible as you think. All concerns about the Farmer aside now: B lets us blend in with the unmasked participants as our affable merchant persona, and it's a great cover. With Jing's social skills and Quiling's tips from last night, we can definitely pull this off so that we can completely blend in with the crowd and socialize with our marks. Nobody's going to talk freely to the dude in the mask. However, we won't be able to push our opponents too far lest they get suspicious.

 

Given we can opt to wear our mask during the fights and take it off, C2 gives us more flexibility; with B we are stuck to our persona comee what may.

 

Not voting, but I'll note that Yifang will probably be participating. Cao'er might participate. Songfeng school might also have a participant. At any rate, Cao'er will definitely be watching the participants.

Treave, we still have chances to raise int, right?

 

The mask only gives us one unmasking ticket, that's it, and it has to be public, otherwise no one will acknowlesge tge newbie.
My point still stands that no one will talk openly with the masked joker or after he publically takes ot off.

Going in masked gives other advantages, like us being able to fight harder without bringing attention on our merchant persona. But that nullifies our social strengths, and Jing is very skilled in that area. I really do thonk that 1B is to our best advantage.

 

Okay. *Takes a deep breath*

It should have been painfully obvious by now that we do not have the same idea of what Jing's character is and how it should develop.

Let's remember some of your last choices and arguments:
* murder Song Lingshu in her sleep to dispose of one of your marks faster
* expose Cao'er's story to the public and bring the shame upon Abbess Miecao so that you could use the ensuing outrage to your own advantage
* screw over the boy who already has it tough to draw away attention from yourself

You are not saying that unorthodox = asshole, you are embracing it.

I went with unorthodox to be able to break the rules I don't like, not to make a habit of breaking whatever rules I come across whenever an opportunity presents itself. There are such things as principles. I said time and time again that I do not place much importance on Zhang's mission if it will transform me into his likeness along the way.

I understand that we were bestowed a rare chance to have one of the Great Pugilists as our master, but I do not think that seeing the apprenticeship to it's logical conclusion would be best for us. Zhang's idea of a perfect warrior is of a man that knows no fear because he has no attachments. No one fights more furiously than the one who has nothing to lose and everything to gain. Zhang does not seem to have any emotions left in him except for his ever-present amusement at what others consider important in life. I have not seen him holding any other values safe for personal power, and he does not seem to care about anybody.

But I do. I care for the people that have been kind to me and that I consider to be my family (Shun, Yao and Cao'er), I care for the people I kind of started to befriend but was forced to separate from for a long time (Qilin), I care for the people that I only met briefly (Lihua, Yifang, Xiahou and the poor farmer couple, some of them I literally knew for no longer than a day), and I care for the ones I didn't get to meet in person at all (Song Lingshu). It doesn't mean I care for all people equally, or that somewhere down the road I'll start hugging strangers and stepping over ladybugs. I don't believe in love and peace, and neither am I a fan of honor before reason approach. I have no mercy for my enemies - should I chance upon Rong Jr. the Second, I will be the first to drop the sword and unsheathe my dagger. But I will not betray friends, turn down allies or involve bystanders, not unless my life would depend on it, and some things I won't do even then. This is how I differentiate myself from Zhang. This is how I maintain my individuality. This is how I perceive the practical side of his teachings while rejecting the greater idea behind them, which I find detestable - I make a conscious choice to care.

Some time back you were worried that Zhang would be a bad influence on Jing, and promoted a choice that many considered silly - writing poetry over the corpses of your animal friends - to withstand the taint his tutelage might bring. I did find that method admirable in its subtlety. Yet now that the training is over and we are out of his reach for the moment, you seem to think that the danger have already passed, and there is no need to exercise caution. You seem to think of these 'unorthodox' ideas as a sign of Jing growing up, while I view them as a herald of corruption that will slowly corrode our soul if we do not resist it. Zhang still has us in his grasp. He did task us with a mission so difficult that it is almost impossible to complete without resorting to a dirty trick or two. Or a hundred. It will gnaw at your integrity bit by bit, like water wears away the stone, until you find yourself perfectly fine with anything to achieve your ends. This is how Zhang goes around his business - walking over corpses like other people do over grass, and taking what he wants. If we do not want to become this, we should not make such decisions lightly, and we certainly should avoid them if there are alternatives. It does not have anything to do with honor, orthodoxy and the like - it is preserving the basic human decency we are talking about here.

Telling me that not wanting to break what I consider the backbone of the character makes me into a pussy who does not have it in him to accomplish Shun's mission and probably does not even care about it is a fallacy and a straw man argument of the worst kind.

[End of rant]

Right. Now that it is out of the way, about the update.

The choice between A, B and C is whether we go under our own identity, our existing false identity, or making a second false identity just to mess with people.

I do not fancy A because at most it accomplishes the same as C1, only it links our face to our actions and blows our merchant story to pieces. I can't understand how the outburst it will inevitably cause might be used to further our goals, unless we go for the win, or resume Tigranes plan from the previous update.

Esquilax's C1 lets us get up close and personal with our marks, while shutting off any chances of communicating with other participants. Who would want to talk to a masked figure who may or may not be Zhang's apprentice? Unless we succeed in making the whole thing into a farce, I do not see us chatting happily like we just did with Shaolin monks and their ilk. C1 makes it easier for us to last against the best among the best, as no one knows if we are a real thing or not - it would be hard for them to make anything out of our mish-mash style if we do not resort to the outright outlawed techniques (so you can use your Mad Wolf Step - it won't be linked back to Xu Jing), and our merchant persona is somewhat safe from suspicion.

I say somewhat because you still have to take the mask off once the matches are over. You aren't exactly inconspicuous walking the streets in that thing. It leaves a chance of exposure if someone sees you taking the mask off. I guess this is why you have taken lessons from Qilin on losing tails in a city, but double identity always carries an extra risk.

Strangely, C2 accomplishes most of the same, though with less confusion your opponents will pay more attention to your slip ups. It still allows you to fight back without being asked questions later, and it carries the same drawbacks. It is certainly less effective, but more humane, should anyone dislike stepping over peoples heads. Like I do.

You can't fight as freely in B2, since, well, a merchant boy out of the woods with no school affiliation beating up their champions is bound to raise eyebrows and focus the attention on you. And you don't want your fighting style to be associated with your face. So the most you would be able to afford is to observe your marks from afar while beating the mooks with regular skills. It leaves far more options to talk with the other participants, however.

B1 I don't find particularly attractive. Combatants will just swarm Guo Fu as their only target, and then they might realize he isn't the real deal. At least in C1, it serves some purpose, splitting their attention.

The choice between C1 and B2 comes down to where you want to look for information - either you learn of your opponents' moves in combat, or you learn of their personalities and habits behind the scenes. Since I was content to be an observer anyway, and we went in anonymously to socialize in the "locker room", B2 is the choice I am naturally inclined to make.

As for the farmer we've just met, I may not exactly want to 'make friends' with a person I've known for 5 minutes and I might never see again in my life. However, I do not wish to antagonize them either, for personal reasons. So it cements my vote. B2.

Edit: Flopped to C2 due to the clarification from treave.

 

C2 because that's what Matthaeus Custodis would do.

 

A question for treave.

Is there anything to gain from this tournament? Aside from gaining knowledge about our opponents, is there anything physical that we could earn? If we get in xth place do we get some cash or something, or is it just an honor thing?

 

I might need to flop to B2.

 

B-but what about Yunzi, man?

 

I didn't know where to place her. In my heart, she is as good as family, but baka Jing doesn't see it that way yet. He'll learn one day.

 

I am broadly sympathetic to Nevill's sentiment and agree with his view of Jing. At the same time, I think it's hugely exaggerated theatrics for the current situation because C1 is nothing like Esquilax's other heinous plans like selling out the Abbess (and to be fair, he only very briefly entertained that). It doesn't put the Farmer's life in danger, and it doesn't even sabotage his tournament hopes significantly. It doesn't betray Zhang (who would be amused) or any of our friends, it doesn't compromise Jing's missions or morals in any significant way.

That said, I've now heard more reasonable arguments for B2. It's a pity I can already see crystal clear the very obvious way it will pan out: sometime during combat we will have to make use of some our techniques, and the more astute observers - whether Masters in the crowd, or the other young stars we fight - will think, we've seen this before... this John Doe, merchant's son, worth watching. Oh, I see our Shaolin disciples / friends have already spoken to this boy, let's collect all that information and file it away... oh, look who have we here, this exact same man turns up on our doorstep later demanding a challenge! I don't think necessarily we wll be identified as Zhang Jue's disciple (though catastrophe can happen with any choice), but I think we're setting ourselves up for a suboptimal result further down the line when our challenges might require additional subterfuge.

It's short-sighted thinking that compromises our original objective of anonymity on a spurious imagination that C1 makes us a baby-eater, or the idea that Jing is too stupid to handle wearing a mask during the fight (C2) and talking maskless with other combatants.

 

The challenges must come from Xu Jing, Zhang Jue's disciple, though. We can't mask that at the Monasteries, they'll know. Which is why I think it is more valuable to invest in analyzing our marks' personalities so that we know which buttons to press to goad them into a fight later on.

 

It's not a bad plan, I'll give it that. However, we do not know what implications it will have on farmer's life and his ability to become accepted into a martial school. It is not our decision to make, man, to mess with someone's life like that. I find it incompatible with my view of the character.

C2 is really less effective than that. B2 and C1 seem like the best of the bunch.

We don't need to win the tournament, so I don't see why would we use our unorthodox techniques. If we are pressed into it by one of the champions, we can just lose on purpose. Nobody would monitor John Doe, though, if we won't start making rapid progress at the tournament.

That said, going with our face open has its own risks. I'd suggest perusing this list and try to find who we may encounter. Cao'er and Rong Muben come to mind. Xiahou is a long shot, but if he is here I can see him being oblivious enough to call us by our real name.

 

Nevill, I've suggested doing a few shady things, sure, and I quickly became convinced that ratting out the Abbess was a bad idea, but I don't think it's fair for you to use past decisions like that against me. Nevertheless, in the middle of your rant, you never really answered my question - what's your goal? My goal is that I want to accomplish Zhang's mission and find out what the Prince is up to after neglecting his mission for so long. Look, we possess mostly lethal techniques and are under a mission from a man who is universally feared and hated - we'll be in a position in which we might have to kill someone in the future, and you have to accept that. We'll just get way more out of C1 than we will from B2.

Not true, we'd still have our merchant boy persona for the times that we aren't in the ring - this is why we take off the mask and switch back into the merchant persona. The purpose is to gain the knowledge of both their psychological and their technical weaknesses. Our persona as a merchant boy will allow us to fly under the radar and make a few friends, while our Zhang Jue alias allows us to test out what sort of abilities our marks have in combat. Provided we pull off the ruse competently, we will get knowledge of both the technical and the psychological holes that we can exploit. In that sense, I feel that it's the best of both worlds.

The really tricky part will be in switching from one identity to another when we take the mask off. We would need to avoid prying eyes, and that isn't going to be easy.

Absolutely, agree with you completely. That's why you you need C1 to make the mask plan work. But yeah, no arguments here.

I have no issues with the rest of your post here, but what is your view of the character? I am getting the feeling that at times you are treating Xu Jing as the character that you want him to be rather than the character that he is. "Oh, I don't like that Jing is so automatic and reflexive when it comes to killing people. We should change that." "I don't like that Jing is so fervently loyal to the Prince. We should change that." "I don't like that Jing would have killed Song Lingshu had he been ordered to do so. We should change that."

Personally, I like him as he is - he just doesn't happen to be this heroic guy that you want to turn him into. Not saying characters can't change and evolve, but perhaps you see him as a lot more heroic than I do. However, treave, would have the answer here: when it comes to fulfilling an order, just how far is Jing willing to go? I just don't know what kind of version of the character that you have, but I am becoming more convinced that it is far different than the one that I have read. I see a guy who is loyal, protective of those close to him, yes, but also willing to do whatever the fuck it takes to fulfil his duties. And if that involves getting his hands dirty, well, he'll do that too.

Perhaps treave can give us a better idea of Jing's moral compass as well. But my point is that I see no reason to try and change everything about this character because every personality trait isn't to your liking. The flaws are part of the appeal too.

 

We don't have to say it before we fight them. Moreover, we could wear the mask to the challenges also. Imagine:

'Oh, here is a man who claims to be Zhang's disciple come to challenge our best. Bloody hell, it's that weird dude wearing his pig mask. Isn't he the one that got beaten soundly in the tournament? It's hard to remember since there were several such ridiculouas fellows, but none of them were a big threat.

Oh, wait, he's just kicked my disciple's butt with some moves that are unmistakeably of Zhang's teaching! Who the hell is this guy? Is he the same guy wearing that mask back in the tournament? It can't be! The fighting style and prowess is miles apart. This must be the real disciple. But was he at the tournament? Under another name? Another mask? Who is the real Zhang Jue Disciple? I'll have to warn the other sects, but how will they know if they are being challenged by the real thing?'

As opposed to the B2 option:

'Oh, here's the fellow who claims to be Zhang's disciple come to challenge our best. I've never seen himb efore... oh, wait, he was that mild-mannered fellow who lost in the tournament."

Look, whichever way you cut it, C1/C2 does everything B2 does and more. Your point about socialising with our marks more? We can do that with C2, we already went over this a dozen times - we can take our mask off in the locker room with that option. Sorry for sounding like a dick but you keep saying again and again the same mistaken stuff.

 

Oh, and I think I forgot to vote: C1 > C2.

 

C1 > C2 (Zhang Jue). Man Tiger Pig (for the lulz)

Sadly it appears it won't win as Codex cannot into morally grey Geralt.

 

Maybe I'm being extremely dense here, but how do you see that playing out in such a public venue? Just take our mask off in front of everyone and pretend to be someone else? Furthermore, how the hell will you explain away our merchant persona's presence in the "locker room" if it's not participating in the fights? "Oh, I'm a paparazzi." isn't an option, sadly. That's what I don't get about the C1/C2 plan. We have to be our persona inside the arena, only switching to the merchant outside of it.

We don't have a White Wolf option, so I'm not getting the parallel here.

 

The competition does not have cash as a prize. Traditionally the winner has been able to petition any of the heads of the Eight Sects for a single favor, within reason. There might be other goodies which change every year, like weapons or manuals. If you don't win, you get nothing.

As for the moral compass of our character, how far he's willing to go depends on who's giving the order, whether or not he thinks it's right, etc. Perhaps I could get a bit more details on what you'd like to see in the explanation?

Edit: regarding raising int, any further chances won't be easy to come across, so it's not a given. It would also involve either dubious or perhaps supernatural methods.

 

Overarching goal - help Shun resolve the pugilistic conspiracy. Make him ascend the throne and restore order to the country.
Personal goal - live happily ever after with Qilin, Cao'er and Yunzi. Yifeng is highly desirable, Twin Flowers are optional.
Current goal - continue Zhang's apprenticeship for as long as we are able to without breaking character. Start looking for alternatives and powerful allies in case we need to hightail it. I don't want to live in Zhang's shadow forever.

I accept that. What I won't accept is this line of thought: "we'll end up doing it eventually, so we might as well start now". We'll cross that bridge when we come to it and if there would be absolutely no other way. Not earlier.

When I wrote 'behind the scenes', I meant 'the locker room'. C1 locks this choice out. We could have learned the information from the outside without participating in the tournament at all, but this was deemed ineffective, which brought us here.

I am shaping the character as I play it. He is an amalgamation of what he currently is, and what I make him strive to be. Otherwise, if he was always the same, there would be no character development.

treave never writes the options that are completely out of character for his protagonists. You don't have to worry about keeping Jing in character - if the option is there, Jing can rationalize it. We are allowed to give him a friendly shove in the direction we would like him to take. I exercise this right.

For example, I may not like Jing being overly loyal, but there is no doubt that he is, right now. We won't be seeing a choice that would allow Jing to ignore a direct order from the prince any time soon. I want him to start questioning that sort of behavior, making use of his own head more often. What people say they want may not exactly turn out to be what they need. I want Jing to have an open mind.

Right now, we are seeing the same character. It is his future that we see differently.

Okay, about B2 and open face, I am starting to scare myself with possible failure scenarios, being a paranoiac that I am.

I wonder if we can make out identity secret to the public but not the other contestants. We'll still be the merchant for them, but there won't be a risk of us being recognized by some unexpected spectators. I am sure Jing can come up with a convincing excuse.

 

Baltika9 It depends on how the tournament logistics work. E.g. let's say the arena is public and the locker-room is private, and participants have some room to walk around and stay out of the spotlight - I'm thinking the great Martial Arts tournament in Dragon Ball. In that case, there is plenty of opportunity to walk around as a normal fellow then privately don our mask. What if the locker-room is much more of an open space and we can't really do that? Well, easy - we can keep our mask on, but, say, give a knowing wink to our Shaolin friend saying hey I'm just doing this because I'm nervous or I hope it gives me a small edge to overcome my deficiencies, be a bro. Finally, what if it turns out that the participants really hate or distrust the masked fellows for some random reason and won't socialise with us? Take it off in the lockerroom! Even in that least efficient scenario, it is the same as B2 but better, because at least our face won't be recognised by everyone watching the tournament!

Seriously, it's super straightforward. With C2, we are foregoing the scheming of C1 and we wil not draw ANY more suspicion than B2. What we are doing is taking a very simple low-risk move to ensure that our face, which will be hyper-visible in B2, is a little less visible.

Nevill: I agree that Jing is still defined by his loyalty and decency, and I see him as a kind of Chaotic Good guy within the pugilistic world, for now. I just don't see how C1 or C2 contravenes that.

 

Are both choices counted separately or in blocks? Edit: also, how is the fighter's area set up?

 

Regarding the locker room space, yes, public arena, private backstage area. I'm sure Tigranes is thinking of Jackie Chun here, and that's basically how it'd work. Except with more complications, but you already expect that I'm sure.

Choices are counted in blocks.

Edit: I do have to point out that if you use Zhang Jue's name, of all people, in a pig's mask, saying that you're wearing the mask because you're nervous is not an option if they discover you.

 

Well, there is another, more personal matter. I am very bad at intrigues.

Double false identity is the kind of game I try to avoid, because I always lose. I wouldn't know how to exploit the confusion. B2 seem more straightforward to me, and easier to navigate. Better the devil you know, and all that.

 

Of course.

Oh, obviously. In C1, we would never take off the mask; we would take on a brazen and surreal demeanour, or perhaps a mildly deranged one, making our connection to the merchant's son even more tenuous. In C2, we would just go as Wild Pig or something. Basically, my point is: I can understand people who don't want to vote C1 because they are risk-averse or want to stay anonymous above all else. I can't understand why the same people wouldn't choose C2, given it actually increases our anonymity. Anonymity doesn't mean not saying anything and staying quiet, anonymity means taking steps to ensure you remain unidentifiable.