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Mass Effect dialog system

suibhne

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This is probably a bit abstruse, but I posted a critique of the Mass Effect dialog system over here. Feel free to rip it to bloody shreds. In the long run, I'm trying to apply critical theory and media studies to gaming, so I'm just using that blog as a place to experiment.
 

Zomg

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I agree generally, but I wonder if the placement of a choice along the "dialog wheel" is supposed to represent a general intent - like, choices that represent your intent to start a fight are always in the leftmost position, or whatever. Otherwise, I need to see the total presentation. It would be funny if allowing interruption amounts to making every node on the dialog tree branch 2n+1 times for n dialog options, one extra for every interruption plus one for keeping silent, yet with only n instances of spoken dialog from the protagonist character.
 

Volourn

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I'v eposted my worries about the ME dialogue system for a long while now. Subhine makes good popints; but the Codex is still fuckin' retarded over their constant whining of a xbox 360 game.

Good article Sub.

Sadly, the stupid Codexers will ruin it by going to an EXTREME that even Shepard can only shake his head at.

R00fles!
 

JarlFrank

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The interrupting thing doesn't sound too bad, but that's about it. The rest of the system sounds like it sucks. Choosing spontanously between 3 short answers which show only a portion of the actual line that you would say instead of getting good fleshed out dialogue where you have to think before you respond must have to suck.
 

Jim Kata

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JarlFrank said:
The interrupting thing doesn't sound too bad, but that's about it. The rest of the system sounds like it sucks. Choosing spontanously between 3 short answers which show only a portion of the actual line that you would say instead of getting good fleshed out dialogue where you have to think before you respond must have to suck.

That's basically how mount&blade dialog works. trying to get meaningful conversations out of the modding system kinda sucks, but it actually works out ok. I don't believe in giving the actual character a ton of lines anyhow. It should be more about selecting the options intelligently. Dialog as gameplay, not as entertainment.
 

ESF assasin

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I'm hyped for Mass effect. Theres people on Gamespot hyping AAAA, they should stop because well... Zelda TP anyone?
 

Pussycat669

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They should integrate an extreme-o-meter for the sake of better estimation, I guess. In Fahrenheit (Indygo Prophecy in the US) a similar dialog mechanic was used and it worked alright so I will remain open minded.
 

denizsi

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You mentioned time factor in dialogue in your article. You may or may not have seen my thread about dialogue which no one give a crap about, but if you have not, you just might find some interesting bits in it. Nothing new like "cinematic" or fluent about it, it's just adding time and (more) reaction emphasis on each dialogue parse, to oppose the tradition that NPCs are simply sources for unconditional information extraction and bring in some variety in usage of speech skills, perks & traits.
 

dagorkan

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Jim Kata said:
That's basically how mount&blade dialog works. trying to get meaningful conversations out of the modding system kinda sucks, but it actually works out ok. I don't believe in giving the actual character a ton of lines anyhow. It should be more about selecting the options intelligently. Dialog as gameplay, not as entertainment.

How is M&B dialog difficult to get meaning out of? Compared to Morrowind or NWN maybe it takes more work but I don't see any major constraints otherwise.
 

aries202

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IIRC, even in the good old dialoque trees, the outcome of the 3-6 choices could or would still be the same.

I'm not that worried about the dialoque system.

What I'm worried about is that the *i gave you an order'* command apparently gets the commander Shephard to grab Garrus's collar.

It would have been enough just state firmly and precisely that the Commander (the "I" in the video)
are in charge of the mission, and that Shephard is the commanding executive officer (or ceo) in this operation.

Garrus, then being the soldier that he is, will then
of course understand this. And do what he is orders to do by Shephard.

I can only take this as an example of the videos trying to get the hype up at certain age group; the teens from 14-21 or so. who really thinks that military life is like this. Or what the codex and I call the FPS crowd who also thinks that the way commander Shephard is acting in the videos are they way of the soldier(s).

A senior executive officer, like Commander Shephard, in the armed forces isn't going to be promoted by attacking his team mates or bad mouthing his team members. This goes for a N7 elite commander executive senior officer as well.

Most leading officers lead by examples, through dialoques and communications and through an insigt into human psychology as well. This is necessary to get the team members to feel like a team and to get them back each other up ---
in the case of a crisis or in case they have to fight.
 
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aries202 said:
What I'm worried about is that the *i gave you an order'* command apparently gets the commander Shephard to grab Garrus's collar.

It would have been enough just state firmly and precisely that the Commander (the "I" in the video)
are in charge of the mission, and that Shephard is the commanding executive officer (or ceo) in this operation.

Garrus, then being the soldier that he is, will then
of course understand this. And do what he is orders to do by Shephard.

I remain hopeful that every response leads to Shepard grabbing Garrus' collar.
 

Durwyn

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Admiral jimbob said:
aries202 said:
What I'm worried about is that the *i gave you an order'* command apparently gets the commander Shephard to grab Garrus's collar.

It would have been enough just state firmly and precisely that the Commander (the "I" in the video)
are in charge of the mission, and that Shephard is the commanding executive officer (or ceo) in this operation.

Garrus, then being the soldier that he is, will then
of course understand this. And do what he is orders to do by Shephard.

I remain hopeful that every response leads to Shepard grabbing Garrus' collar.
It's all about choices...
 
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Durwyn said:
Admiral jimbob said:
aries202 said:
What I'm worried about is that the *i gave you an order'* command apparently gets the commander Shephard to grab Garrus's collar.

It would have been enough just state firmly and precisely that the Commander (the "I" in the video)
are in charge of the mission, and that Shephard is the commanding executive officer (or ceo) in this operation.

Garrus, then being the soldier that he is, will then
of course understand this. And do what he is orders to do by Shephard.

I remain hopeful that every response leads to Shepard grabbing Garrus' collar.
It's all about choices...

You can be a real man, do Shepard proud and grab his collar, or if you can't handle the Extremity you can go play some other sissy ball-less RPG. How's that for choice?
 

JarlFrank

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Admiral jimbob said:
aries202 said:
What I'm worried about is that the *i gave you an order'* command apparently gets the commander Shephard to grab Garrus's collar.

It would have been enough just state firmly and precisely that the Commander (the "I" in the video)
are in charge of the mission, and that Shephard is the commanding executive officer (or ceo) in this operation.

Garrus, then being the soldier that he is, will then
of course understand this. And do what he is orders to do by Shephard.

I remain hopeful that every response leads to Shepard grabbing Garrus' collar.

This would, indeed, be EXTREME.
 

Durwyn

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Admiral jimbob said:
You can be a real man, do Shepard proud and grab his collar, or if you can't handle the Extremity you can go play some other sissy ball-less RPG. How's that for choice?
As always... Totaly Extreme!
 

Blacklung

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I agree that it's a little shaky to have the choices represented by such short snippits of the dialogue. Also, while I personally like the idea of real time interrupting, I have a thing called hearing. If you are a deaf person, it's going to get a little tough, especially if the lip synching isn't perfect. The argument about reading and hearing is weak at best. Maybe it's a problem if you are dyslexic or read at a 4th grade level, but most people can handle movies with subtitles (Kung Fu Hustle, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, The Passion, Apocalypto).

I think their ideas have potential, but they need some work. Perhaps implementing a pause and replay option for the dialogue would give players better control incase of reading, hearing, or outside interferrence problems (your buddy walks into the room, parents call for dinner, etc.). Also, they are always going to be limited on dialogue choices when using voice actors, simply due to the money spent on animation and the actors. Perhaps in the future we'll be able to tailor better vox voices and stock animations, but that's not today in the game market.
 

Volourn

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Tough shit for deaf people. I think they get pandered to enough.
 

suibhne

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Sylvanus said:
The argument about reading and hearing is weak at best. Maybe it's a problem if you are dyslexic or read at a 4th grade level, but most people can handle movies with subtitles (Kung Fu Hustle, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, The Passion, Apocalypto).

Yeah, I was thinking that when first writing about ME...but people process spoken and written language with different brain functions. I'm a great example: I could trot out IQ and standardized test scores to salvage my pathetic pride, but I still have difficulty parsing spoken language - even tho I can breeze through highly complex written English. And in the case of ME's dialog system, players will need to process the spoken dialog not merely for content, but also for time - to decide if and when to interrupt. And of course they'll be reverse-translating Bioware's possible responses at the same time, to weigh each of those against the alternatives of interruption and non-response.

For most people it won't be an issue, but it does make the system even messier.

On some level I don't care, because I never expected any real role-playing or narrative interactivity out of Mass Effect anyway. But this overall direction does concern me - this assumption that "directness" or "immersiveness" is the most desirable goal, and that systems like this are the way to accomplish it. The unmindful application of such systems will probably end up giving us less and less content, at least less and less interactivity, as games become more "cinematic".
 

Dark Helmet

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The whole concept of interrupting someone isn't bad, but I agree that not really knowing what your character is going to say is a downside. Though there might be some factor we don't know (backstory choices maybe?) that changes things in the dialogue somehow (depending on what character you're playing).

In the end it's still the same range of responses anyway... :roll:
 

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