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Morrowind is just a plain bad game

Commissar Draco

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Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
In Skyrim was once dueled by Mage, stroke him by my sword and He yelled You Cheat! Wanted to say I know go whine to Howard you cunt.
Isn't such reaction actually quite neat?.

Would be if I was in fact College member then... just another broken quest say what you want to about Amalur game was stable and bugless.

Expect the Alchemy to be removed in TES VI... Amputation is the one and only cure Beth uses.
I wish Beth cured Todd's head.[/quote]

:bro: for sentiment and points about DF an MW... there were no actions games with few scripted Persauassion Checks like Skyrim.... OK have to drive to school. :salute:
 

DraQ

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Would be if I was in fact College member then...
Well, maybe he expected, you know, mage duel.

Would love something like this when duelling Trebonius in MW or fighting Umbra by levitating to the top of nearest rock and pelting him with spells/arrows.


You could put levitation in Skyrim, but whats the point. In Morrowind it was a essential part of the game since many quests and location could not be reached without it, also many secret areas were accessible only with it. There is no such locations in Skyrim, it could still be used to shorten your trip up to mountain or going directly to a top level of a tower, but it would not add much to the secret hunting.
Well, but if you have levitation, you can design stuff for it.

As for armor, I would have both. Skills for all three weight category and unique bonuses and penalties. For example I would have heavy armor increase stamina consumption for your attacks but with higher skill minimize the penalty. Also the armor would create huge penalties for spell casting so a mage would be completely useless while wearing anything heavier them light armor and even that would influence you efficiency.
I'm strongly opposed to passive skills in use-based systems (active skills with additional passive bonuses are ok, if passive part doesn't count as use).

Well, there's Hand to Hand for the prosperically-oriented players who like to claw out the eyes of their unconscious opponents.
I'll have to experiment with maxed out HtH plus as many boosts to it as possible on enchanted gear.

Even normally it can actually be pretty powerful (stunlock), but killing anything with it takes about forever.
 

LoPan

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The thing is that despite it's brokenness Morrowind is flexible...

I do not want an awesome button and neither do I play games for instant gratification, and this is my main point: why would someone play Morrowind, or to put it more precisely, what does one get out of playing Morrowind.

Why I like RPGs and Strategy games is because they have a great deal of friction, they are hard to get into. RPGs require a great deal of time, but they also require you to figure things out, either the systems, puzzles or sometimes even the mere interface, and are rarely designed for this process to unfold naturally through thoughtless experience or simple interaction. As example, Icewind Dale has a great deal of friction whilst Super Meat Boy has none.

What I desire when playing a video game is the same thing I desire from a book, film or any other largely passive form of entetainment: I want my brain tickled. With this in mind, what would I get out of Morrowind?

We all do things for a reason and too often the reason pleasure is derived from a video game is entirely ignored. It's hard to know what you want, but if you have encountered something you desire then you ought to be able to understand why you do so, keeping in mind that as human beings we spend most of our lives filling holes we usually dug ourselves. If you stop to consider what you are actually doing in a video game the activity is absurd if not entirely pointless.

What you describe is extrinsically larping, not actually, just extrinsically--like P&P gaming, which I consider myself mightily partial to, but only 'like'. To elaborate: in a P&P game rules are arbitrarily followed, they are laid down in the imagination, really, and form a kind of alternate reality; however, in a game like Morrowind you have a similar situation except that the imagination of the player is restricted by the limits of the game, it is after all a video game and not an arbitrary construct from your own imagination.

When I play a video game I want to figure something out. Preferably I want to figure out how to deal with some foreign construct, such as a ruleset, which is why I am drawn to RPGs and Strategy games. I'll admit I am rubbish at them, which is somewhat to my benefit since my inferior brain can then enjoy figuring out systems as low-brow--if you will--as Europa Universalis or Albion.

My problem with Morrowind is that I was somewhat enjoying it but began enjoying it less and less after the first few hours when I discovered how broken the system was. The whole thing is fraught with exploit and balance issues. To understand the game was to break it. My grief with Morrowind may here become apparent, as I played the game it came to be that whenever I found something out it was usually an exploit (something so over-powered or cheap that it could not have been left in the game on purpose) or a possible glitch, and it trivialized the game and mangled whatever sense of a plausible world the game was able to sustain in me. When I find these things in a game I use them, to not use them is a thing I do not understand, it would be like not skiing in Tribes. If I want to play tassle-fancy with my imagination I do pixel art or write a story no one will ever read, I do not play Morrowind and roleplay by myself.

I say roleplay, for what else is it. I do not think anyone in this thread has argued that the combat engine of Morrowind is anything short of irrelevant or dismal. Considering that the two things you do the most in Morrowind is fighting and running, restricting yourself from fully utilizing the game's system seems to do little but extend the difficulty of handling the two worst things about Morrowind.

Exploration appears to be what most Morrowind-fanciers deem the element which makes the game a grand old thing. I do not think I can precisely argue this because some degree of nostalgia may be attached to the graphics. The graphics do not do Morrowind a disservice but I don't find it does it much good either, fair to say that visual exploration is not something I appreciate. I hear Skyrim-fanciers are all about it, but I've seen Skyrim--briefly played it on someone else's super computer with sparkly graphics even--and I don't get it; Morrowind is about as aesthetically interesting to me.

So we are left with what I will daringly, but far from charmingly, refer to as 'contextual exploration', for lack of a better term. What I mean to refer to with the term is that of exploration sparked or made interesting by the possibility or search for something with a context in the game, usually that of story or lore. I feel I must here mention that the thing I recall despising the most about Oblivion was how many special items they threw at you, Morrowind does not pander like this and it does not rely on the 'awesome button' game philosophy of Bioware and post-Morrowind-Bethesda where the player must constantly be thrown goodies and epic lutes to satisfy whatever twisted notion a player satisfied by this would be satisfying.

To get back on topic, loot in Morrowind carried no interest to me. I had no interest in the story, world or lore no matter my attempts at investing myself in it, and so, loot aside, what contextual value the dungeons and side-tracks had would not find purchase with my kind.

What remains is the lore and the story, the quality of which I won't get into, I will simply claim once more that I read the books and I read the text nodes, and I just don't get it (what makes it good or interesting that is); then again, I was never much for literary fiction, let alone fantasy fiction. As the concept of narrative goes I just want to make it clear I was speaking of video game narrative which is an unrefined concept that is very distinct from the narrative styles of literature or film, its the reason cutscenes are vilified. A video game narrative is one that uses the video game to tell a story, or to somehow narrate it, it is a fairly abstract idea done well in very few games. No need to get into it because this post will be long enough and by thinking on it for a wee while you may well come to grasp what I mean by it.

The point from all this stands: to derive enjoyment, whatever the word may mean to you, from Morrowind you must enjoy the lore and the story. The points you and others mention seem reliant on it. The first time I played the game I tried getting caught up in it, there was so much to read I simply felt obliged to attempt it, but failing to do so I was left trying to look at it from other peoples' perspective, but to no avail. Adding to this the reason I play video games, it is not wonder I find Morrowind fairly detestable. I feel I ought to repeat that I don't like Morrowind because it does nothing for me. It is not a matter of taste but of intention.

I've asked this question many times, Skittles interpreted it as me wanting to be persuaded to like Morrowind, but I'll repeat, plainly once again, that this is not the case. I simply want people who like Morrowind to explain to me why they do so; not what they like, why they like it--what they get out of it. No one has to, I am sure some may be incensed by this post. Just remember that if you find yourself getting hot-headed by reading this then take a day or two off and return. If you still care after that then you may be able to write something out that is not merely an emotional reaction (not to imply that DraQ was under such an influence when he wrote his post).
 

Bruma Hobo

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What you describe is extrinsically larping, not actually, just extrinsically--like P&P gaming, which I consider myself mightily partial to, but only 'like'. To elaborate: in a P&P game rules are arbitrarily followed, they are laid down in the imagination, really, and form a kind of alternate reality; however, in a game like Morrowind you have a similar situation except that the imagination of the player is restricted by the limits of the game, it is after all a video game and not an arbitrary construct from your own imagination.

No, it is not. What we call LARP is the make-believe part of P&P gaming...Avoiding metagaming, game-breaking glitches and unbalanced stuff (like alchemy) is not LARPing, we do it to not spoil the problem-solving aspect of the game (you know, the other important part of tabletop gaming).
 

Commissar Draco

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You can RP character who is not interested in magic or alchemy... you know being knight or soldier or merchant etc... Once Completed MW having only Chrysamer, Glodband and Lord's Mail for fancy stuff. Game was much more intresting when boss creatures had chance to kill you if you rush into combat or fought in stupid way. Pick the guild that are logical choice for your PC and leave something for second playthrough. Completed game as Imperial Knight, Dunmer battlemage and Bosmer agent and had greater fun than people who're metagaming their own SP play. In case of Skyrim did all guild aside from DB... there is no initiative to play it second time anyway....
 

DraQ

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Cliffracers?:troll:
Skyrim already has those.
:troll:

I do not want an awesome button and neither do I play games for instant gratification, and this is my main point: why would someone play Morrowind, or to put it more precisely, what does one get out of playing Morrowind.
I think the problem is that you do want an awesome button.

The difference is that you want one that is difficult to press, but you still want something clearly designated as your awesome button, so that you know towards what should you put your effort so that you'll be properly rewarded with awesome once you tackle all the obstacles.

Meanwhile morrowind has multiple easily accessibly buttons each labelled "awesome" but when you press any of them trollface pops out making fart noises.

The thing is that Morrowind doesn't have predefined objectives, quests, including the main one are merely aids in immersing yourself in the gameworld, and purported awesome buttons you feel desire to press, which invariably disappoint you with both the ease of access and low awesome quotient, are not to be pressed. Morrowind doesn't present you with a goal, it presents you with a world. Sure, it's a broken mess in terms of mechanics and it's horrible, but it's not very relevant to what Morrowind does accomplish, and it does accomplish setting up an interesting world, with rich backstory and ability to accommodate great variety of characters and playstyles, but those characters and playstyles are merely proxies to get into the world itself.

It's not a game that's played to be beaten, it's not even a game played to be played, it's a world to be explored.

What I desire when playing a video game is the same thing I desire from a book, film or any other largely passive form of entetainment: I want my brain tickled. With this in mind, what would I get out of Morrowind?
Actually Morrowind will tickle you in a way more similar to a good book than other games. Instead of providing you with mechanical challenges it provides textual and subtextual connundrums. You get thrown stuff like Arcturian Heresy, or lessons of Vivec and can set off to figure stuff out. Admittedly, that's more of an out of game layer of in-universe texts, rather than the universe itself, but it does provide the context for the in-game universe and adds a lot of depth to it.

On a more in-game level you can figure out (often very subtle) environmental cues leading you to places worthy of exploration and be rewarded by unique loot or locations, you can also fiddle with magic and enchantment systems, which, even after discarding all the obviously glitched stuff, still provide lots of room for creative use of rules.

If you are playing, say, PnP D&D do you really require someone to tell you to not roll up a Pun-Pun, just because the rules are enough of a mess to not explicitly forbid that?

It's not an excuse for Beth making this mess, but you work with what you're given and Morrowind still has a lot of potential.

A video game narrative is one that uses the video game to tell a story, or to somehow narrate it, it is a fairly abstract idea done well in very few games. No need to get into it because this post will be long enough and by thinking on it for a wee while you may well come to grasp what I mean by it.
How about using gameworld to tell narrative? Not as innovative, but certainly present in Morrowind.

Back when I played BG I remember finding numerous in-game books describing all kinds of stuff that was fucking irrelevant and completely disjoint with anything I could find in game. They were pure fluff.
were real and which fictional, which could and which couldn't be reached in game and where.

The cool part of Morrowind is that the gameworld and story overlaps with backstory and background fluff - the world is strongly connected with itself and allows you to figure those connections which are often hidden in plain sight. Morrowind has extreme amount of detail it doesn't shove in player's face, coded messages are not just some giberish, but can be actually deciphered using cryptographic methods and they contain mostly gameworld relevant info, even if you're never offered deciphered version anywhere in game. City of Vivec is plastered with religious texts written in daedric (no translation offered, but you can learn to read them), priest robes are adorned with religious writings, even the type of stuff like what NPCs wear is information and I'm not speaking of armour or expensive VS inexpensive clothing, I'm speaking of distinct cloth styles characteristic for factions and cultural groups in game.

I think that's where Morrowind tickles your brain the most - extracting knowledge from the gameworld context.
 

SCO

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Basically morrowind had a budget that allowed it and a chief designer that believed in worldbuilding and gave directions and tools for the artists to go wild.

It's a interesting contrast that in most other games it is either the artists or the writers that are tasked with connecting the world to the story, and their approach is often haphazard or/and in-your-face, but morrowind had a bit of success by avoiding obviousness. I think writers of the game-industry caliber are often not aware of the tools a game can offer for that kind of stuff, and the visual artists can't set aside their pauldrons of visual alignment recognition. I don't see any reason why those ideas and eye to detail can't be used in other storyfag subgenres. Things like the 'gods' subquest of arcanum are examples, only not really, because one such secret with only one clue (the panel) is not really convincing as cultural debris... and i don't think that geography clues work very well without hiking (ala morrowind or gothic).

Daggerfall did something similar on a narrative level, with the main quest.
Oh well, that Beth and it's hypothetical refinement is dead now
 

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I think writers of the game-industry caliber are often not aware of the tools a game can offer for that kind of stuff
I think that the problem here is that writers are writers and there are many things in game that can't be done, but not written.

Oh well, that Beth and it's hypothetical refinement is dead now
Well, despite further mechanical dumbing down beth undeclined much of the facepalm inducing oblivion stuff in Skyrim, so maybe there is still faint glimmer of hope? Ideal situation would be if Oblivious got completely forgotten by the players, lost sandwiched between Morrowind and Skyrim.

That might give them something to think about.

Their release of Daggerfall was a good thing as well - saw quite a few threads where oblivious fans got it to run, got past graphics and initial difficulties, then started loudly bemoaning loss of so much awesome stuff from Daggerfall in later games in the series.
 

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I think that is already happening.

Oblivion is much less discussed than Morrowind and Skyrim these days on the internet, and is seen more as a spinoff game released between the two. Even among GameSpy's casual crowd or among the forgiving posters in Iron Tower.

Plus, the transition from Morrowind to Skyrim seems much smoother, because both relate to a province of distinct culture, both involve exploring the worlds of the disappeared Dwemer (as opposed to the far less interesting Ayleids), both involve a thing that hinges on the creation of the world itself (The Throne of the World and Heart of Lokhran), and there are several situations in Skyrim that make references to Morrowind rather than Oblivion (eg. a homage to the Umbra orc in Skyrim).

In many ways, Skyrim feels like the proper sequel to Morrowind - and the Elder Scrolls series in general - as opposed to Oblivion, which really feels like an entirely separate game, much like Battlespire. This is not to rag on Battlespire, but to remark on the disconnect one finds between Oblivion and Morrowind.
 

JarlFrank

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DraQ said:
It's not a game that's played to be beaten, it's not even a game played to be played, it's a world to be explored.

Which is why I, as an explorefag, like it so much.
It's not even perfect at what it does, just solid - and one of the best offerings of that type of game we currently have. It's explorefag heaven, especially in the way some of the quests are designed. Take the Imperial Cult quests where you have to find artifacts: you are given a description of a landscape and you're told that there's a dungeon there that contains a certain artefact. No quest compass, no nothing, just a description of a landscape, the general area of its location, and now have fun exploring!

This is what I want from my first person open world RPGs. Hidden awesome stuff that is difficult to find, but can be found if you pay attention to your surroundings and carefully read quest instructions or lore books. This is exactly the kind of thing that makes an explorefag cum buckets - read about awesome stuff in the lore or from rumours, then actually be able to find that awesome stuff by exploring the world and following these rumours.
 

SCO

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DraQ said:
It's not a game that's played to be beaten, it's not even a game played to be played, it's a world to be explored.
This is what I want from my first person open world RPGs. Hidden awesome stuff that is difficult to find, but can be found if you pay attention to your surroundings and carefully read quest instructions or lore books. This is exactly the kind of thing that makes an explorefag cum buckets - read about awesome stuff in the lore or from rumours, then actually be able to find that awesome stuff by exploring the world and following these rumours.
I was pretty happy when i found the ruined 'stonegate' castle in the middle of the swamp in ultima 7 pt 1 (that has the moonblade), because i read the relevant book.

To be honest, i'm more of a storyfag. I would take a QFG over a morrowind, any day.
 

abnaxus

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I think that is already happening.

Oblivion is much less discussed than Morrowind and Skyrim these days on the internet, and is seen more as a spinoff game released between the two. Even among GameSpy's casual crowd or among the forgiving posters in Iron Tower.

Plus, the transition from Morrowind to Skyrim seems much smoother, because both relate to a province of distinct culture, both involve exploring the worlds of the disappeared Dwemer (as opposed to the far less interesting Ayleids), both involve a thing that hinges on the creation of the world itself (The Throne of the World and Heart of Lokhran), and there are several situations in Skyrim that make references to Morrowind rather than Oblivion (eg. a homage to the Umbra orc in Skyrim).

In many ways, Skyrim feels like the proper sequel to Morrowind - and the Elder Scrolls series in general - as opposed to Oblivion, which really feels like an entirely separate game, much like Battlespire. This is not to rag on Battlespire, but to remark on the disconnect one finds between Oblivion and Morrowind.
Oblivion could actually have been interesting, if they had sticked more closely to the lore. I blame Ken Rolston who went full retard after Morrowind.

At least Knights of the Nine expanded a lot on the lore concerning the founding of the first human Empire and the downfall of the Ayleids.
 

Wyrmlord

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You played Knights of the Nine? I heard that was a lot of money for too little content.
 

el Supremo

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I'm not a lore-whore but the enormous backstory and then-current story of the game's mythology kept me very interested as I kept learning it. I'd never played a previous Elder Scrolls game and was impressed at the depth and moral ambiguity. I guess if one just never read any of the picked up books or books for sale, or quickly hit the "next" button on NPC texts, sure. And sorry if I'm strawmanning you. There are valid reasons for not liking Morrowind as a game. And there are valid reasons for liking it. Hell, some might even like it for the combat, strange as that sounds.

Cliffracers objectively suck though, yep.

No, the point is, that there is no point to pick up books, or talk to NPC or go to places. The main story, that is supposed to guide you through the gameworld is simply not there. You are left to your own devices, to make up thestories in your head, because the game makers have been to lazy to make a proper one. Look ant the first two Gothics, that how the RPG is supposed to play out. In Morrowind, way too many times you end up in the middle of the street, in some fields, or in forrest, thinking "WTF I am supposed to do now?"

There is much talky talk about Morrowind-good vs Oblivion-bad, but I fail to see any siginificant difference between to two. Both are long drown, boring hiking simulators, without any substance.
 
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In Morrowind, way too many times you end up in the middle of the street, in some fields, or in forrest, thinking "WTF I am supposed to do now?"

If only you had some sort of easily accessible diary-like device that allowed you to see your current objectives. A device which is constantly updated.

Thenamelessone.jpg
 

Commissar Draco

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I'm not a lore-whore but the enormous backstory and then-current story of the game's mythology kept me very interested as I kept learning it. I'd never played a previous Elder Scrolls game and was impressed at the depth and moral ambiguity. I guess if one just never read any of the picked up books or books for sale, or quickly hit the "next" button on NPC texts, sure. And sorry if I'm strawmanning you. There are valid reasons for not liking Morrowind as a game. And there are valid reasons for liking it. Hell, some might even like it for the combat, strange as that sounds.

Cliffracers objectively suck though, yep.

No, the point is, that there is no point to pick up books, or talk to NPC or go to places. The main story, that is supposed to guide you through the gameworld is simply not there. You are left to your own devices, to make up thestories in your head, because the game makers have been to lazy to make a proper one. Look ant the first two Gothics, that how the RPG is supposed to play out. In Morrowind, way too many times you end up in the middle of the street, in some fields, or in forrest, thinking "WTF I am supposed to do now?"

There is much talky talk about Morrowind-good vs Oblivion-bad, but I fail to see any siginificant difference between to two. Both are long drown, boring hiking simulators, without any substance.

Beth already fixed this... play Oblibion, Fallout F3 or Skyrim Man lover of fresh registration date.
 

Grimlorn

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I had more fun with Morrowind when I didn't exploit the system or use any training. I used Galshia's leveling mod and just played the game normally. I didn't go after all the special Daedric equipment at lvl 1. I had an enchanter enchant my equipment instead of lvling enchant and doing it myself. I also tried to attack slowly instead of spamming the mouse button. (like 1 click every 1-2 seconds instead of 5-10 in one sec) Did this for most of the game to give it some kind of challenge and turn based-ness. By the time I got to the end though, I was spamming it as it was very boring.

The game just works better this way imo. It's more natural and you don't become OP right away. I think I beat the game on about lvl 20 or something using that mod. My stats weren't close to being maxed.
 

JarlFrank

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Actually, I never tried any exploits in Morrowind. I just played naturally - roaming the countryside on my way to quest locations and exploring random caves, joining guilds and doing quests, generally doing whatever I felt like doing currently.

Yes, you eventually reach the point of being badass and unbeatable, but it comes less quickly if you don't powergame.
 

Turjan

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In Morrowind, way too many times you end up in the middle of the street, in some fields, or in forrest, thinking "WTF I am supposed to do now?"

If only you had some sort of easily accessible diary-like device that allowed you to see your current objectives. A device which is constantly updated.
Heh, yes. Using Morrowind's diary was easier than most people made it sound. Of course, it got more comfortable with Tribunal installed.
 

DraQ

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In Morrowind, way too many times you end up in the middle of the street, in some fields, or in forrest, thinking "WTF I am supposed to do now?"

If only you had some sort of easily accessible diary-like device that allowed you to see your current objectives. A device which is constantly updated.
Heh, yes. Using Morrowind's diary was easier than most people made it sound. Of course, it got more comfortable with Tribunal installed.
Originally it was still better than in, say, BG.

With Tribunal it's easily one of the best diaries save for maybe the likes of The Witcher.
 

Grimlorn

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If I remember right, I think it was different in the console version. In the console version there was no way to see all your quests and get the specific diary entries on each quest. You just got the diary section and had to scroll through that. So if you got a quest and forgot about it or did a bunch of other stuff before going back to it, you would have to scroll through pages and pages of diary entries to find info on it.
 

SCO

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console untermensch don't count
 

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