Morrowind is just a plain bad game

[Grimlorn]

Yeah. I'm just assuming people who complained about the diary being difficult or annoying to use were playing the console version.

 

[abnaxus]

A cool detail about Morrowind is that master trainers are often mentioned in books.

E.g.

Archery -> Missun Akin -> Black Arrow
Block -> Shardie -> Hope of the Redoran
Light armor -> Aerin -> The Rearguard
Axe -> Alfhedil Elfhewer -> The third door
Alchemy -> Abelle Chriditte -> Cake and the diamond
Alteration -> Seryne Relas -> Breathing water
Armorer -> Sirollus Saccus -> The armorer's challenge

 

[DraQ]

If I remember right, I think it was different in the console version. In the console version there was no way to see all your quests and get the specific diary entries on each quest. You just got the diary section and had to scroll through that. So if you got a quest and forgot about it or did a bunch of other stuff before going back to it, you would have to scroll through pages and pages of diary entries to find info on it.

That's also how it worked on PC without expansions, the thing is that it's also how it worked in pretty much every RPG before Morrowind.

At least in Morrowind (even vanilla IIRC) you could also search the topics to see everything you ever heard about any given topic, which was immensely convenient, especially givn that quest objectives and locations often had their unique topics.

A cool detail about Morrowind is that master trainers are often mentioned in books.

E.g.

Archery -> Missun Akin -> Black Arrow
Block -> Shardie -> Hope of the Redoran
Light armor -> Aerin -> The Rearguard
Axe -> Alfhedil Elfhewer -> The third door
Alchemy -> Abelle Chriditte -> Cake and the diamond
Alteration -> Seryne Relas -> Breathing water
Armorer -> Sirollus Saccus -> The armorer's challenge

Yeah, and it was great.

Some mentions were off, though, for example Sirollus Saccus couldn't have been *that* Sirollus Saccus because it was 300 years before, Abelle is young, though decribed as wrinkly old woman in the book, and so on.

Still, businesses run in families and children are often given names to honor their great ancestors, so Sirollus could well be a descendant of the one mentioned in the book and also a masterful smith, Abelle might have secretly developed some sort of youth elixir, being master alchemist who also chose to work in secrecy away from all civilization, some other discrepancies might be explained by tribute inserts into fiction, as was the case with renaissance artists painting important historical and religious figures with the faces of their sponsors (or their own) or, when involving geography and such, by partial ignorance on part of the author.

TES lore gains a lot of flexibility by staying in character, if only because it allows the sources to be fallible and reduces impact of contradictions, unless they are major fuck ups (Cyrodiilic jungle temperate forest and multiple cults of Dibella, some focusing explicitly on erotic instruction and full of naked dancers single cult of Dibella consisting of the same quasi-christian cathedral as all the other cults and a handful of sad monks).

 

[Deadeye Dragoon]

No, the point is, that there is no point to pick up books, or talk to NPC or go to places. The main story, that is supposed to guide you through the gameworld is simply not there. You are left to your own devices, to make up thestories in your head, because the game makers have been to lazy to make a proper one. Look ant the first two Gothics, that how the RPG is supposed to play out. In Morrowind, way too many times you end up in the middle of the street, in some fields, or in forrest, thinking "WTF I am supposed to do now?"

Wow. I'm almost too flabbergasted to respond to this.

Yes, the main quest is plain and not illuminating. Main quests in RPGs are not, by the way, obligated to hold your hand. If that's what you thought then I guess you were going back to Caius Cossadus (or whatever his name was), constantly hoping to have him advance you so you could understand the world you were in. Obviously, it was impossible for you to simply truck around to Vivec, Molag Amur or something, Balmorra; learn the world from NPCs and books, play accordingly.

Or maybe I'm misjudging you and you were roleplaying as a PC that already had perfect knowledge of the game world and its mythology. If so yeah, I feel your pain. I too wish the boat intro had been 20 hours long. Heck, I wish it had been four more hours to tell me exactly how the main quest would end.

"Every single RPG I've played has told me what to do and what the big quest is and had four lines of backstory that let me know exactly what this world is! THE ONLY ROLEPLAYING I KNOW IS ROLEPLAYING AN OMNISCIENT BEING! This game makes me wonder things and not be immediately directed to the next quest? BAH! Give me my linear NOW!"

 

[el Supremo]

I don't know why I bother to post this; I'll just get ridiculed more.

By "WTF I am supposed to do now" I was NOT complaining that I cannot find the diary. It was more along the line "WTF petty, insignificant quest should I procede now".

Look, exploration, side quests, lore, these things are supposed to give you a break, from time to time, from the main storyline. Not to make you wander aimlessly, untill you cannot take it anymore, so you go ahead and complete the boring main quest, or maybe just stop playing altogether. Morrowind gives me absolutly no reason to explore the lore, or whatnot. Oblivion is just the same, but I can agree, that the side acivities are even worse. At this point I gave up on the Beth, but I doubt if F3 or Skyrim can be of any interest to someone who got treminally bored with both Morrowind and Oblivion.

 

[DraQ]

I don't know why I bother to post this; I'll just get ridiculed more.

Keen observation.

 

[attackfighter]

I didn't like the Morrowind journal because it couldn't sort quests by completion. If you got one quest early on, forgot about it and then did a bunch of other quests, chances are you'd never see that early quest again since it would be buried under all of the others. The only way you'd come across that quest again is if by chance you run into someone affiliated with it and see a dialogue option referencing it.

 

[Carrion]

^ That was fixed when Tribunal came out.

 

[Turjan]

I guess it doesn't work if you pirated it then...

Your journal is searchable. Just do it.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

I don't know why I bother to post this; I'll just get ridiculed more.

By "WTF I am supposed to do now" I was NOT complaining that I cannot find the diary. It was more along the line "WTF petty, insignificant quest should I procede now".

Look, exploration, side quests, lore, these things are supposed to give you a break, from time to time, from the main storyline. Not to make you wander aimlessly, untill you cannot take it anymore, so you go ahead and complete the boring main quest, or maybe just stop playing altogether. Morrowind gives me absolutly no reason to explore the lore, or whatnot. Oblivion is just the same, but I can agree, that the side acivities are even worse. At this point I gave up on the Beth, but I doubt if F3 or Skyrim can be of any interest to someone who got treminally bored with both Morrowind and Oblivion.

Morrowind is a different game... You're supposed to get immersed into the world, fall in love with the flora, the fauna (ok, not the cliffracers), the "feel" of it and the exploration, the dwemer mystery etc.. The world just feels so HUGE, and there's always areas that you haven't explored, that's what always intriguing. Then curiosity for "lore" will come naturally. That kind of open-mindedness though is hard to achieve though, esp. in an adult gamer. It's a slow game that has to be played slowly. I played it as a teen and it worked for me, though.

BTW the actual "main story" really picks up mid-game

Spoiler

after you catch the Corpus disease

Oblivion is just.. well, bland.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Banal shit boring Moar like, if you didn't liked Mork you won't like none of never Beth games... even if there's steady trend from Oblibion.

 

[Wyrmlord]

BTW the actual "main story" really picks up mid-game

Spoiler

after you catch the Corpus disease

This is quite correct.

Morrowind totally transformed itself in my eyes beyond that point. I still thought it was largely poor on the gameplay, quests, and mechanics side, but at that point, something special and something interesting was happening in the game.

 

[Sabriana]

I still like Morrowind. I only have a few mods installed, and they are mostly cosmetic, as in making the environment/people look better. Once you get over the combat sillyness in the beginning, it is a lot of fun. Especially with the 2 exp pacs.

I like it that you as the player, has to think and not be led around by the hand. I like being able to make my own notes in the journal. I like getting so effing lost because I, the player, was not paying enough attention. I remember getting utterly frustrated during the 'escort the escaped slave to Ebonhard' quest. I got so utterly lost because of the large and diverse map, it was truly frustrating to the point that it was funny again. Damn mountains, dammit.

Sometimes I feel like a dinosaur, even though I'm not all that old - yet. I love all those old games far more than most of their successsors. I love FO2, VtM Bloodlines, PS:T, and BG2. Yes, I know Bioware is personal non grata here, and in light of their recent efforts, that's entirely justified.

Edited to ask: Where is my avatar, and where is my post-count? Stange, that.

 

[Commissar Draco]

BTW the actual "main story" really picks up mid-game

Spoiler

after you catch the Corpus disease

This is quite correct.

Morrowind totally transformed itself in my eyes beyond that point. I still thought it was largely poor on the gameplay, quests, and mechanics side, but at that point, something special and something interesting was happening in the game.

That was them moment me and my PC started to believe in all this prophecy stuff... To this moment the game played as purely Imperial grey ops Intelligence operation. In new games you're from the start either THE Chosen One or anti Hero like TWitcher. In Skyrim you're proclaimed ''the Dragonborn" in first bigger city you get.... Morrowind from the start to the end was ambigous and subjective.... In the end I didn't really knew who my character was working for or was I real Neverrine or not... if So who killed me? What will happen to the land I liberated from blight.... what will be consequnces of destroying the heart of the world? Whom I should back in broiling civil war? So many question only partially answered in Tribunal and Infernal City.

 

[Darklife]

Well you could wield Sunder and Keeing, which if I recall correctly could only be done by the Nerevarine. All those Nerevarines were just false prophets. Oh and Dagoth Ur seemed pretty convinced you are his bro from days gone by.

 

[abnaxus]

Nope, only the Moon-and-Star ring supposedly could be worn by Nerevarine. Every tard could technically wield Sunder and Keening with Wraithguard and the right instructions.

Morrowind protagonist is just the first person in so many generations that succesfully managed to become the Nerevarine. All the rest are Failed Incarnates.

And yeah, the entire thing is basically Azura making use of an Elder Scrolls prophecy for her own ends and cure her extreme butthurt. But in the end, Vivec got the last word by stuffing her mouth with Muatra and blowing her up.

 

[Wyrmlord]

What stops a very clever Telvanni wizard from a) forcefully taking Wraithguard from Vivec, b) finding the Sunder and Keening in the Red Mountain region, c) discovering how to use them from all the Dwemer-era books he has or can find, about Kagrenac and everything else?

As far as I see, only interest and perseverance. Or maybe just fear of something going wrong. Either way, those aren't much different from the constraints that the appointed prophet faced.

 

[Utgard-Loki]

it is possible(in gameplay), considering that YOU can be that crafty telvanni wizard.

but you are aided by shoddy gameplay mechanics and restrictions of the gameworld. speaking strictly from lore, it's pretty impossible. and even if the crafty telvanni wizard could take vivec, the only thing he will manage is delivering the tools directly to ol voryn and dooming everything to singularity.

 

[abnaxus]

It's hard to believe that the Tribunal lost access to the Heart chamber for so long, considering how puny Dagoth Ur, Ash vampires, ascended sleepers and ash ghouls are when you meet them. Plus all the dungeons in Red Mountain are tiny and have very few enemies.

A single High Ordinator from Tribunal could easily conquer Red Mountain.

The entire blight threat ultimately comes across as a non-event. Probably the worst endgame sequence in any Elder Scrolls game.

 

[attackfighter]

it is possible(in gameplay), considering that YOU can be that crafty telvanni wizard.

but you are aided by shoddy gameplay mechanics and restrictions of the gameworld. speaking strictly from lore, it's pretty impossible. and even if the crafty telvanni wizard could take vivec, the only thing he will manage is delivering the tools directly to ol voryn and dooming everything to singularity.

You don't even need to kill Vivec or take his Wraithguard to complete the game. While Keening and Sunder are supposed to insta-kill you if you aren't wearing Wraithguard, they actually don't. Instead what they do is cause 500 damage per second (or something like that). So if you're fast and have enough health you can equip Keening and Sunder long enough to make the required attacks without taking enough damage to kill yourself. That's how I did it the first time I played Morrowind, since I was young, stupid and managed to bug my mainquest progression before I made it to the point where Vivec would give me Wraithguard. That's also how the speed runners do it; if you recall the speed run video of that guy jumping across Tamriel to acquire all of the artifacts to beat the game, he never makes a detour to get Wraithguard (I believe he just relies on fortify health potions).

 

[Utgard-Loki]

but that's an exploit using the deliciously broken alchemy system.

killing vivec, getting wraithguard and taking it to [PERSONNAMEHERE] is actually something the developers deliberately put into the game.

 

[attackfighter]

You don't need to abuse alchemy to get 500 health.

 

[attackfighter]

It's hard to believe that the Tribunal lost access to the Heart chamber for so long, considering how puny Dagoth Ur, Ash vampires, ascended sleepers and ash ghouls are when you meet them. Plus all the dungeons in Red Mountain are tiny and have very few enemies.

A single High Ordinator from Tribunal could easily conquer Red Mountain.

The entire blight threat ultimately comes across as a non-event. Probably the worst endgame sequence in any Elder Scrolls game.

I'd say the expansions are at fault for this one, since they have such high powered enemies that anything in the vanilla game looks feeble in comparison. Still I don't think they break the suspension of disbelief much. There are corpses and reports of lost tribunal patrols strewn throughout the game, and that's enough to convince me that they aren't all-powerful.

 

[Wyrmlord]

I think his point is correct in that you don't have to be a big expert or metagamer at Morrowind to face any problem in the last areas of Red Mountain, and you could do a very good job as a first time player. That makes it all quite unconvincing - that fighting Dagoth Ur was some dangerous or suicidal thing.

If it were like most games, it would be a long, painfully frustrating last level that would seem borderline impossible and require many reloads. But it was a rather casual dungeon.

 

[attackfighter]

Yeah they could have made it more difficult. I remember the first time I ventured into Red Mountain I stocked up on potions, arrows and other supplies, anticipating a dangerous excursion. But then after defeating all enemies with ease and raiding several strongholds I realised that even the most dangerous region in game posed little threat. From there on every time I journeyed into Red Mountain I treated it as a casual excursion like any other.

It's a shame that Bethesda likes to keep everything within walking distance of each other. I think a far better Red Mountain design would be to have everything far apart, so that travelling to any location within it would be an arduous task, that would tax your inventory of potions, arrows, repair hammers and other supplies. Add some actual dangerous enemies, disable mark, recall, divine and Almsivi intervention and you have an area that actually lives up to it's in-game reputation.