Morrowind vs Skyrim objectively

[Lhynn]

No there arent, as i said, you built your character like shit and had problems because of it. Only level your main combat skill, be it ranged or melee (dont bother with magic), and your armor (either light or heavy, there is absolutely no difference between them, not even the weight is different when you are done) and the game is cake.
Character progression has always been a mess in the elder scrolls games, it being counterproductive to your characters overall combat prowess? thats what oblivion and skyrim brought to the table.

My character was fine. Not the greatest, but it wasn't intended to be, I just focused on a character concept that would be enjoyable for me to play (stealthy archer).

As I recall, I ended up maxing out my archery too.

The sooner you max out your combat skills is the sooner you stop leveling, thus the sooner your enemies stop growing in power. And the problem is that by playing your concept you made the game harder for you, and you didnt even realize it. This is why level scaling is evil. By level 15 i was oneshotting dragons with a single power attack, and nothing else was even close to being a threat.

 

[MWaser]

Maybe he preferred not to one-shot dragons. My character build was probably crap in Skyrim, but after having maxed out Smithing and Enchanting I was invulnerable and murdering everything in half a second anyway, so it didn't matter much. The leveling up system in the Elder Scrolls games always ends up with you becoming a demigod powerhouse, so they have level scaling to balance it out. Oblivion was of course the worst in that regard.

 

[Roguey]

The sooner you max out your combat skills is the sooner you stop leveling, thus the sooner your enemies stop growing in power. And the problem is that by playing your concept you made the game harder for you, and you didnt even realize it. This is why level scaling is evil. By level 15 i was oneshotting dragons with a single power attack, and nothing else was even close to being a threat.

I played the way it was intended and ended up having a nice time, which sounds better to me than powergaming and hating every moment.

 

[bloodlover]

Roguey, leveling can actually make you weaker in skyrim, if you level the wrong things. Sure, some enemies have a minimum level, but thats extremely low either way, compared to the pace at which you level.
For example I kinda laughed at your "stealthy" character, all stealthy characters and using poisons in skyrim do is make you kill faster at the start, which means your armor and weapon skills will level up slower. Not only that, those stealth skillpoints make you grow in level without actually affording much effectiveness in the battlefield, the reduced stealth speed actually makes dungeon crawls take many times the amount of time they should, so in a way you are hurting your progress for absolutely no benefit, its only detrimental to your character.

I played a stealthy dual wielding dagger character and had no problems. Dragons were a bit of a pain sometimes but nothing too hard. I assume you can make it harder on yourself by leveling smithing very fast thus ending up with an average character level and very low weapon/armor skills but the game is quite easy so there should not be any real issues.

 

[Lhynn]

I played a stealthy dual wielding dagger character and had no problems. Dragons were a bit of a pain sometimes but nothing too hard. I assume you can make it harder on yourself by leveling smithing very fast thus ending up with an average character level and very low weapon/armor skills but the game is quite easy so there should not be any real issues.

Nope, crafting is broken, smithy can take your weapon base damage to stupid levels, alchemy is even more broken by making every hit that isnt insta kill irrelevant, because of easy healing. stealing, sneak, shield, speech, all magic schools (except for enchanting, which allows you to gain stupid high resistances and boosts to damage) and lockpicking make you comparatively weaker.

I played the way it was intended and ended up having a nice time, which sounds better to me than powergaming and hating every moment.

Sounds to me like you are trying to rationalize nonsensical design because "it didnt bother you".

 

[Clockwork Knight]

For example I kinda laughed at your "stealthy" character, all stealthy characters and using poisons in skyrim do is make you kill faster at the start, which means your armor and weapon skills will level up slower. Not only that, those stealth skillpoints make you grow in level without actually affording much effectiveness in the battlefield, the reduced stealth speed actually makes dungeon crawls take many times the amount of time they should, so in a way you are hurting your progress for absolutely no benefit, its only detrimental to your character.

I don't see the issue. Slower leveling means your rogue won't be fighting horrible murderbeasts too soon, and ideally you aren't getting into intense brawls often so having lower armor and melee skills isn't fatal. (edit: it could be a problem in Oblivion because Alchemy leveled way too fucking fast as a major skill, so the poisons couldn't keep up with the enemies)

Yeah, in the end it's detrimental to play as anything other than a heavily armored conjurer with thirty enchanted amulets and a potion for every situation, since there's nothing really preventing you from doing so.

 

[Lhynn]

I don't see the issue. Slower leveling means your rogue won't be fighting horrible murderbeasts too soon, and ideally you aren't getting into intense brawls often so having lower armor and melee skills isn't fatal. (edit: it could be a problem in Oblivion because Alchemy leveled way too fucking fast as a major skill, so the poisons couldn't keep up with the enemies)

Yeah, in the end it's detrimental to play as anything other than a heavily armored conjurer with thirty enchanted amulets and a potion for every situation, since there's nothing really preventing you from doing so.

The leveling is not slower, leveling stays at the same speed, you are just leveling stuff that doesnt help you, thus only making your enemies relatively stronger. Its not hard to understand bro.

If i level up and get a +0 in my combat effectiveness and the enemy gets scaled and gets a +1 in his, then hes the one winning because of my level up. Repeat this enough times and youll find yourself being weaker and weaker. Its just how the mechanics work.

If the game wasnt so trivially easy it would be a lot more noticeable.

 

[Gerrard]

The sooner you max out your combat skills is the sooner you stop leveling, thus the sooner your enemies stop growing in power. And the problem is that by playing your concept you made the game harder for you, and you didnt even realize it. This is why level scaling is evil. By level 15 i was oneshotting dragons with a single power attack, and nothing else was even close to being a threat.

I played the way it was intended and ended up having a nice time, which sounds better to me than powergaming and hating every moment.

Sounds like LARPing to me.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

The leveling is not slower, leveling stays at the same speed, you are just leveling stuff that doesnt help you, thus only making your enemies relatively stronger. Its not hard to understand bro.

The experience bar raises at the same speed, yes, but since skills raise with use a sneaky fucker levels more slowly than someone who is constantly casting and slashing and getting hit during every skirmish. A character designed to oneshot people from the shadows doesn't really need to learn how to take hits better, anyway.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

For reference, I played the following types with a vanilla/mostly vanilla setup:

- warrior who did a bit of everything. This guy was level 50 before beginning the main quest, just going around towns and doing minor quests.

- mage who only touched the mage skills. Leveled naturally during combat.

- rogue assassin. Only really leveled up when I wanted him to.

 

[Lhynn]

And yet you seem completely unable to understand the logic or the math of it all.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

If the math doesn't stand up to experience, then it's probably wrong.

 

[Lhynn]

The math is never wrong, its just that you are unable to apretiate the difference.
Also you spent in vanilla more than an hour? damn.

 

[Roguey]

Sounds to me like you are trying to rationalize nonsensical design because "it didnt bother you".

I thought you were one of those "I hate balance" types?

Sounds like LARPing to me.

Role playing a character concept supported by systems and scripted content isn't LARPing. LARPing's when you do role playing activities that aren't acknowledged by the game.

 

[Lhynn]

Sounds to me like you are trying to rationalize nonsensical design because "it didnt bother you".

I thought you were one of those "I hate balance" types?

You thought wrong, i dont care about balance as long as its not detrimental to fun. I, however, hate retarded mechanics.

 

[MWaser]

(Skyrim) vanilla/mostly vanilla setup:
- mage who only touched the mage skills. Leveled naturally during combat.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

The math is never wrong, its just that you are unable to apretiate the difference.

You did not experience slower leveling.

...huh. Must've been the wind.

*goes back to patrol*

Also you spent in vanilla more than an hour? damn.

I like to know what a mod is changing, besides the problematic stuff like level scaling and combat AI isn't apparent until your character is out of the diapers.

That guy didn't grind the crafting and social skills so he leveled at a reasonable pace. Destruction and Restoration take forever to raise with use, but I just use trainers for those.

 

[Lhynn]

The math is never wrong, its just that you are unable to apretiate the difference.

You did not experience slower leveling.

Im talking about slower leveling, im talking about the end result. Tho slower leveling is not surprising, as i already said before, leveling stealth makes the entire game take x5 as much time as it should to finish.

I like to know what a mod is changing, besides the problematic stuff like level scaling and combat AI isn't apparent until your character is out of the diapers.

em, not really, its apparent when you kill your first dragon at level fucking 1.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I was like level 15-20 when I fought the first dragon, so I wouldn't know that.

 

[Lhynn]

I was like level 15-20 when I fought the first dragon, so I wouldn't know that.

Then you havent had the troo skyrim experience. And you dare mod it? filthy peasant.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Technically, you have to be at least level 2 to fight the dragon since you get a level up at the end of the tutorial. So your math is wrong once again.

 

[Lhynn]

You only get it if you actually do anything during the tutorial.

 

[Gerrard]

Sounds like LARPing to me.

Role playing a character concept supported by systems and scripted content isn't LARPing. LARPing's when you do role playing activities that aren't acknowledged by the game.

Nah, I'm pretty sure that purposefully gimping yourself for the sake of "muh roleplaying" is LARPing.

 

[Roguey]

Nah, I'm pretty sure that purposefully gimping yourself for the sake of "muh roleplaying" is LARPing.

Not powergaming is not "purposefully gimping yourself." Most RPG developers don't balance their content around power builds, because they expect most players to role play consistent character concepts.

 

[Carrion]

The thing with powergaming in a game with an improve-by-use system is that it quite strictly limits the way you can play the game and the tactics you can use. Skyrim is boring as shit if you play it the optimal way, leveling up the "good" skills while avoiding using the "bad" ones. Yeah, it'll make you more powerful, but it hardly matters if it eliminates the actually interesting aspects of the gameplay in the process. You get much more enjoyment out of the game if you mix a bit of everything, from stealth to all kinds of magic and from ranged combat to simply stabbing people in the face. It might be different with Requiem or some other mods that actually make it challenging on some level, but with vanilla, SkyRe etc. a jack-of-all-trades is perfectly viable and much more fun to play than some one-dimensional sword-swinger.