Spiderweb Nethergate or Nethergate Ressurection?

[Lord_Potato]

Hi guys and girls,

I am slowly approaching the end of my Assassin's Creed: Odyssey playthrough (about to hit a 100 hour mark, only eastern islands and Macedon remains to be explored), thus my inner graphic whore is almost sated and should not need nourishment for some months.

So I am planning to play some of the older games that focus on gameplay mechanics, rather than gorgeous vistas and sumptous art design. Among them there will surely be a place for Teudogar and the Alliance with Rome, but I'd also love to seriously start an adventure with Jeff Vogel's games.

So far my experiences with his creations are: suspended campaigns of Geneforge 1 and Avadon: the Black Fortress. However I feel that his earlier works fascinate me more. Among them the Nethergate games hold a special place, mixing actual ancient history with fantasy elements. I'd love to give the a try, but since one is a remake of the other, I will be focusing on one of them

So, which one should I try?

The original:

Spoiler

Or the remake:

Spoiler

Despite the fact than 8 years separate these games, graphically there are very similar, with most of the assets reused in the remake. Ressurection offers a larger resolution and slightly bigger game window, which is always a plus, especially in a game with lots of tactical combat. Jeff Vogel himself considers Ressurection to be a better game, more finished and with lots of additional content. However I am interested in the opinion of RPG Codex veterans: wasn't anything of substance lost in translation?

What are the differences in mechanics, content, story (if possible, without spoilers, please!)? Which is more representative for Vogel's work?

I possess both of them and they run fine on devices available to me, so the technical side of the choice is irrelevant.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Lord_Potato]

Noone has any knowledge about the comparison betwen those two titles?

Ok, so maybe for people who played at least one of them: which campaign is more fun? Roman or Celtic?

The game is propably about 60 hours long, so I will most likely play it with only one faction (for the moment at least, I might come back for the other one after some time).

From what I've read Romans are better at melee combat, while Celts are better spellcasters. Some spells/magical disciplines are totally not available to the Romans and they have to manage with their superiour fighting skills. Is the difference really that significant?

Also I read you can recruit npcs to your party (there are 6 slots on the screenshots, while you start with four party members). Can the Romans recruit Celtic characters and vice versa?

Once again thanks in advance (this time hopefully there will be something to be thankful for )

 

[V_K]

IIRC Romans get lockpicking/trap disarming so there's that. No clue as to how useful this skill is though.
I think running the original NG on a modern system might be a little tricky. But the rule of a thumb with Vogel games is that each generation of remakes gets worse (more streamlined and simplified) than the preceding one.

 

[visions]

IIRC you need food in the original and don't need it in the remake.

 

[mondblut]

Ok, so maybe for people who played at least one of them: which campaign is more fun? Roman or Celtic?

They are not terribly different tbh. You start on the opposite edges of the map and then proceed to the other side, across all the same encounters. That's what I remember from the original. Do not expect two totally different games for the price of one.

 

[glass blackbird]

There's some changes between the two (first game makes you buy food, and I think magic was a bit stronger in it too?) but they're really not very different. Resurrection adds some more content iirc and it's got a bigger display area, so that's the one to go with if you're gonna pick. iirc it's not like the other spiderweb remakes where he changes a bunch of stuff; it's just an improved version of the original game

 

[Lord_Potato]

The response was even greater than I anticipated. I am grateful for all the valuable information!

IIRC Romans get lockpicking/trap disarming so there's that. No clue as to how useful this skill is though.
I think running the original NG on a modern system might be a little tricky. But the rule of a thumb with Vogel games is that each generation of remakes gets worse (more streamlined and simplified) than the preceding one.

Fortunately, I managed to run both games on my computers (though I admit Nethergate Classic is more problematic - it only runs on xp divices, Ressurection also runs on Windows 10 computers). Lockpicking is usually useful in Vogel's games. From a quick tip in the title screen of the game I learned Romans have the mechanic tool skill (used also for unlocking), and Celts do the same with a spell. Celtic ability seems more useful (because the magic circles also contain other spells), but I'll have to see how the Roman skill works and how useful it is in different contexts.

IIRC you need food in the original and don't need it in the remake.

Ok, that's a big difference. However, while I usually like various logistical limitations in games, I find food consumption fits better in survival simulators and in general games with a more simulationist approach. Vogel's games don't make such an impression on me. Hence, I expect food consumpion to be some layer of difficulty in the beginning (and a tedious micromanagent issue), but quickly becoming trivial later. Might try playing with it when I already get to know the game better.

They are not terribly different tbh. You start on the opposite edges of the map and then proceed to the other side, across all the same encounters. That's what I remember from the original. Do not expect two totally different games for the price of one.

Advertisement at Spiderweb Software site http://spiderwebsoftware.com/nethergate/index.html states that, depending on the faction selection "The quests, puzzles, and the way the characters react to you will be completely different. It's like two games in one!" - so in reality it's not really so different, eh? A sad case of false advertising then.

There's some changes between the two (first game makes you buy food, and I think magic was a bit stronger in it too?) but they're really not very different. Resurrection adds some more content iirc and it's got a bigger display area, so that's the one to go with if you're gonna pick. iirc it's not like the other spiderweb remakes where he changes a bunch of stuff; it's just an improved version of the original game

So basically it's food+stronger magic vs. more content (additional dungeons) and a bigger resolution/display area?

If that is the case, I think I can give my verdict.

For my first playthrough I will be playing Romans, because I prefer the civilized conquerors to the unwashed barbarians. Their magic is indeed weaker, but if in Ressurection it's less impactful altogether, I will choose this version (also to see the additional locations and enjoy a slightly better presentation/wider tactical view).

If upon finishing the game I will feel that I wish to know the other side of the story, I will play the Celtic campaign in the Classic version (with the additional challenge of managing food reserve and possibility to use more powerful magic).

Thank you for all the anwsers, guys (and gals, should any woman hide under the nicknames) and for all suggestions! Soon I will commence my Nethergate adventure!

 

[Lord_Potato]

So, I started the Roman campaign in Nethergate: Ressurection.

Didn't even wait to finish my playthrough of Assassin's Creed: Odyssey. I am propably looking at 20 hours more, so I am too impatient for that. I will finish Odyssey between sessions of Vogel's masterpiece.

After several hours and completing the first dungeon (the abandonned mine) I must admit I really like the game. Although the visuals are simplistic they manage to convey what the author wished to present. I was a bit irritated by the fact the characters are not animated, but thanks to that they storm through locations and I don't have to observe hours of walking from point A to B. The atmosphere is skillfully created with minimal means - mostly it relies on good writing.
The combat is quite simple so far, but has some potential for more tactical depth (especially when I hire 2 more NPCs). So far, the only battle I could not win was against

Spoiler

the dragon on the 3rd level of the mines.

The lizards demanded some tactical approach and timing my attacks and some goblin shamans even managed to kill one of my legionaries. So it's not piss easy, but so far nothing shocking.

Also, food still matters in this game (you need portions to rest outside safe towns, at least that's what item descriptions say, didn't try to rest in dungeons yet).

I already amassed some collection of blessed artifacts and my party reached level 4. I read that you can achieve early 20s before the game ends. I wonder if I manage to get there - I took some traits for my Roman heroes that gave each of them 15% experience penalty.

So far, so good. I am enjoying it more than Avadon: the Black Fortress and even Geneforge 1. I am curious if later too much combat, a design choice typical for Vogel's games does not bog me down. So far however, I am enjoying this a lot.

 

[V_K]

Too much combat is definitely an issue, as far as I remember. Generally, I felt like there was more padding than in average Vogel game (pre-Avadon, that is, the amount of padding in those games is ridiculous), exacerbated by the fact that it's also tangibly more linear than an average Vogel game (once again, Avadon and Avernum 5 notwithstanding).

 

[Fowyr]

Oh crap, I missed this thread!

Jeff Vogel himself considers Ressurection to be a better game, more finished and with lots of additional content.

Every time Jeff Vogel says something, he says bullshit.


I played both versions a long time ago, first Nethergate demo and then (because couldn't find anywhere full version) Nethergate Resurrection. It was terrible
I just cite myself:

The original Nethergate is better, Resurrection butchered mechanics a lot, some encounters now don't even have a sense. And added dungeon is craptastic. It's fucking rollercoaster (Romans to the left, Celts to the right! Five rooms onwards and your prize awaits you!)

Ressurection was avernumification of Nethergate. Game lost food, need to id, blessing pools, gain shitton of trainers, two dungeons - one is very dumb, lost magical lockpicks (maybe ALL lockpicks), bunch of skills, woad is useless etc.

Food was very important in some encounters and last area of the game.

He butchered blessing pools, one or two skills (potions available was calculated as function of herbology and alchemy or some shit), woad, food, items was avernumized (i.e. no more magic lockpicks) and so on. Several encounters what was centered around the food lost any sense.
You may play remake, it was not cardinally changed from original, but I liked original more.

Blessing pools were one of the more interesting features. I should replay as original Nethergate Celt someday.

 

[Leonard]

The food may not sound like a big deal, but there are a couple of locations where it was clear that the game was made with it in mind, and the loss of it trivializes some decisions. You'll know when you get to them, since the text wasn't adjusted for it.

Other than that, the original character development and game mechanics felt a lot better, too. In return you get the new dungeon, which isn't very interesting.

Overall, I'd say that the original Netergate is better, but Resurrection is still a good game.

Some hints, under spoiler in case you want to play on your own:

Spoiler

Roman Training is really powerful. It's better to invest in it, than in any of the weapon skills, at least until it gets pricier in skill points. Get some even for your druids, it's easy to be a good fighter with just a couple of points.

Invest some time and skill points in potion making. Especially as Romans, consumables save lives. Don't save up those wands, scrolls, potions. You'll need them if you don't want to reload all the time.

This isn't explained in the game, but you need a decent number of points in armor use to get the full described reduction. Thankfully it's dirt cheap for Romans, you'll need around 10 points to get the full use of the best plate mails.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Well, now i am curious on the comparisons from exile to avernum to the latest avernum 1-3 (4-6 didn't get an update as far as i know). Guess i'll look into it since i have all of them but haven't gotten to them.

 

[V_K]

Well, now i am curious on the comparisons from exile to avernum to the latest avernum 1-3

It's quite easy:
Exile - 6-strong party, ~150 spells, alchemy is a skill. I think you need food to rest (and you need rest to recharge HP), but I'm not sure.
Avernum - 4-strong party, ~40 spells (but each comes in 3 power levels), alchemy removed. No food requirements, and I think HP are restored upon reaching a friendly settlement (i.e. no need for inns).
Avernum remakes - skills changed into skill trees, most utility spells removed (dispel barrier is the only one that remains), most utility skills are useless.

 

[Fowyr]

I recently replayed first Exile and you really need food to rest. Food also was used every now and then with a hilariously loud sound. Magic spells in Exile were pretty tame compared to magic gallore that was Exile 3. Some of them were useless, but surely it had vision. From spell that tried to drain enemy spell points (and enemy could drain your SP instead) to spell that summoned monsters that you killed, spell that transformed room into blazing inferno for several rounds and spell that potentially destroyed and killed everything and everyone on the map. Avernum added quick teleportation between portal points (Exile has a huge map) and some foreshadowing to events of later games. That's all. Character system was dumbed down, inventory was butchered, dual wielding was removed. Dozens of other small things are amiss.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

I couldn't get Exile to run on my Windows 10 PC, but I was very interested in it. It seems the newer games have been dumbed down quite a bit compared to the originals. I'd love to play Exile 1 and actually have it run on my PC.

 

[Fowyr]

Nethergate was a turning point for Vogel. Exiles were tremendous success for such niche game. Keep in mind, that graphics that you see in Exile now were not in the first versions, it's graphics from Exile 3. Original graphic was uglier. Original versions are rare as fuck now, Vogel memory holed them.
But Exile was game that was made in the right time. Macintoshes had too few RPGs and Exile stood out, PC games were in First Age of CRPG Decline, but some people still wanted their Ultima 5 and Magic Candle fix. He made second part. It sold well. He hired two people who made him new graphic, one of them became Vogel's wife. Exile 3 sold very well. Then he made new engine, new graphic, new bells and whistles, poured his creative juices into it, but Nethergate flopped. Time was wrong, it was the CRPG revival and Nethergate was lackluster. Vogel learned his lesson (or so he thought), used Nethergate's engine to make Avernum and later Geneforge (that became his "experimental" series) and fucked corpses of Exiles year after year. Then he made Avadon and tried to be one-man-Bioware, but it's another but equally sad story. Another sad story was Blades of Exile that once had a thriving community.

I couldn't get Exile to run on my Windows 10 PC, but I was very interested in it. It seems the newer games have been dumbed down quite a bit compared to the originals. I'd love to play Exile 1 and actually have it run on my PC.

You need to install WIn 3.11 under DosBox, install SVGA and Sound Blaster driver and you are set.

 

[Lord_Potato]

I couldn't get Exile to run on my Windows 10 PC, but I was very interested in it. It seems the newer games have been dumbed down quite a bit compared to the originals. I'd love to play Exile 1 and actually have it run on my PC.

Judging from Vogels' site Exile series is now free to play (you can download registered versions directly from his site). So, Fluent, I think it's safe for me, without breaking any rules or regulations, to guide you to modified versions of the Exile series that can be run from Windows 10. PM me and I'll do it.

Myself, I keep two older laptops with Windows XP for my retrogaming needs. On them everything works like a charm.

 

[mondblut]

I couldn't get Exile to run on my Windows 10 PC, but I was very interested in it. It seems the newer games have been dumbed down quite a bit compared to the originals. I'd love to play Exile 1 and actually have it run on my PC.

Install Windows 3.1 in dosbox. Or try a mac version in classic mac emulator like Basilisk.

 

[V_K]

Keep in mind, that graphics that you see in Exile now were not in the first versions, it's graphics from Exile 3. Original graphic was uglier. Original versions are rare as fuck now, Vogel memory holed them.

Wow, you're not kidding

 

[Lord_Potato]

Nethergate was a turning point for Vogel. Exiles were tremendous success for such niche game. Keep in mind, that graphics that you see in Exile now were not in the first versions, it's graphics from Exile 3. Original graphic was uglier. Original versions are rare as fuck now, Vogel memory holed them.
But Exile was game that was made in the right time. Macintoshes had too few RPGs and Exile stood out, PC games were in First Age of CRPG Decline, but some people still wanted their Ultima 5 and Magic Candle fix. He made second part. It sold well. He hired two people who made him new graphic, one of them became Vogel's wife. Exile 3 sold very well. Then he made new engine, new graphic, new bells and whistles, poured his creative juices into it, but Nethergate flopped. Time was wrong, it was the CRPG revival and Nethergate was lackluster. Vogel learned his lesson (or so he thought), used Nethergate's engine to make Avernum and later Geneforge (that became his "experimental" series) and fucked corpses of Exiles year after year. Then he made Avadon and tried to be one-man-Bioware, but it's another but equally sad story. Another sad story was Blades of Exile that once had a thriving community.

Well, Exile games are still there for people that want to try them (and either install Windows in dosbox or get a version bundled with dosbox). And they can do it for free because they were made free to play by Spiderweb Software. They may be dead, but still there to be played and enjoyed.

And what is the sad story of Blade of Exile community?

 

[Fowyr]

And what is the sad story of Blade of Exile community?

They made a lot of fun scenarios, but the last when I saw them, they were on last legs. They were somewhat rejuvenated by Vogel releasing BoE sources, but that's all. Even site with a biggest repository of scenarios was dead. Blades of Avernum had their community too, but I don't know much about them. Vogel though that BoA was his error, BTW.

 

[Lord_Potato]

Well, the game was quite old and distributed by an indie company before the age of digital distribution, Steam, Humble bundles etc, so with a limited reach. It's a miracle a strong community even developped and managed to persist through the years.

Do you know why Vogel considered BoA a mistake? It damaged the sales of Avernum 4-6 or something? Because remaking BoE into BoA after he remade all Exiles into Avernums seemed like a natural move to me. I am curious about his reasoning (which propably changed later, he seems to change his mind quite a lot, propably a good trait that makes him more flexible and allowed him to stay in business for almost 30 years now).

 

[Fowyr]

Do you know why Vogel considered BoA a mistake? It damaged the sales of Avernum 4-6 or something?

I can't remember much now, but it was something about low sales. Maybe I'm wrong, dunno.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

So I was tinkering with the Exile games and got them to play fine on Windows 10. Just use the compability settings of "turn fullscreen optimizations off" and "override scaling". Game plays fullscreen with mouse and keyboard working. Pretty neat. Thinking of playing Exile III actually since I've played the Avernum: Escape From the Pit to death. Is this still a pretty good game to get into, or should I just play Avernum 3 (original) or the new remake?

 

[Fowyr]

Thinking of playing Exile III actually since I've played the Avernum: Escape From the Pit to death. Is this still a pretty good game to get into

Absolutely yes.

, or should I just play Avernum 3 (original) or the new remake?

Fuck no. See my posts above.