Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Neverwinter Nights 2: Storm of Zehir - Under appreciated RPG

Darth Roxor

Royal Dongsmith
Staff Member
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
1,878,405
Location
Djibouti
SoZ plot was very much a classic sword and sorcery deal, "Get rich or die trying (ALSO ANCIENT PLOTTING EVIL REVEALED TOWARDS THE END)", and I didn't mind it in the least. If anything, it was a great pause from all the epix and emotional engagements of just about every recent rpg.

Remember all the ridiculously small and bland dungeons in the game ? The very last dungeon was pretty fun, but few others were genuinely entertaining.

That also didn't bother me too much. Most of the dungeons had some cool hook to them, some were very entertaining, and those that were truly generic and uninteresting ended fast enough for you to not give a damn.
 

Renevent

Cipher
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Messages
925
SoZ plot was very much a classic sword and sorcery deal, "Get rich or die trying (ALSO ANCIENT PLOTTING EVIL REVEALED TOWARDS THE END)", and I didn't mind it in the least. If anything, it was a great pause from all the epix and emotional engagements of just about every recent rpg.

Remember all the ridiculously small and bland dungeons in the game ? The very last dungeon was pretty fun, but few others were genuinely entertaining.

That also didn't bother me too much. Most of the dungeons had some cool hook to them, some were very entertaining, and those that were truly generic and uninteresting ended fast enough for you to not give a damn.

Exactly! Brought back the feeling of playing some older DOS RPG's from the late 80's...I personally found it refreshing. What sucks though is since the game didn't do so well we probably won't get a game like it again, at least not from a major developer/publisher. :(

Anyways seems like a lot of people had all sorts of issues just running the game, I see how that can sour the experience for them. I personally never had any real issues myself, the only noticeable issue for me was the load times which weren't even that bad...still noticeable though.
 

LeStryfe79

President Spartacus
Joined
Nov 25, 2008
Messages
7,503
Location
Codex 2012 Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong
The load times were indeed heinous. On the other hand, it's one of the few games that felt like DnD to me. PoR and ToEE being the other two. It also had magnificent music. Storyfag games feel almost nothing like my experiences with the real deal, so SoZ story didn't seem all that bad to me. I feel the good far outweighed the bad for my tastes, and it even made my top 25 list.

:5/5::4/5:

Too bad Annie turned out to be a traitor.
 

Xi

Arcane
Joined
Jan 28, 2006
Messages
6,101
Location
Twilight Zone
To give some context to this thread, my first cRPG was Pool of Radiance from SSI. It's a type of game I'm very fond of and something that doesn't get made anymore.

So with that said, NWN2: SoZ was really excellent IMO. Creating an entire party of your own making, exploring a large overland map with lots of points of interest, and setting up a trade company was very fun and well done. I think it's the closest recent game we've had to PoR and other similar games and wish more were made.

It has some rough edges, but I think it give gamers a lot more freedom then what you typically get from most other major RPG's these days, especially the 'bro-mance simulators' coming from Bioware.


I agree, it was one of the better examples of how to recreate a PnP experience. I really liked SOZ too. Gonna have to replay it eventually. Good fun thinking up cool character builds. ;P
 

Sceptic

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
10,871
Divinity: Original Sin
Lots of storyfags ITT. You want your emotionally engaging romance sim then go play that. SOZ's story is completely typical but it's also done extremely well for a very simple reason: the game doesn't push it down your throat. It's there to tie in the gameplay, nothing more. I mean, I love a good storyfag game now and then, but comparing SOZ and the typical Bioware and claiming SOZ is worse because of story is inviting ridicule. The game has its problems, certainly, and it does drag on in the middle part, but the sense of party-based exploration, that there could be something interesting hidden just around the corner, is something I haven't seen done this well since Might and Magic died an ignoble death. Bonus points for one of the best final dungeons ever, and a final battle that was just the right level of challenge (and was by far the most fun combat encounter in the entire NWN series). Also, all technical issues were resolved with patches, and while they were pretty bad, complaining about them now is like complaining that Fallout 2 is unplayable because of shitty bugs everywhere.

tl;dr SOZ is awesome and fuck the haters.
 

King Crispy

Too bad I have no queen.
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
1,876,562
Location
Future Wasteland
Strap Yourselves In
While I don't have a problem with OP enjoying SoZ, I do have a problem with comparing it to Pool of Radiance. That is a great disservice to the Gold Box classic.

First off, PoR finds its roots in a decently-written story. It follows it as faithfully as a CRPG will allow, and thus bears enough backstory brunt to get one through its tougher fights and what one might consider trash mobs. Its combat was excellent, probably the peak of what was possible back in the Apple II (edit: and Commodore!) days, thanks to SSI's expertise gained through all those years of writing great tactical games.

SoZ simply lays down a big map, throws in a bunch of engine tweaks to allow a full party, some essentially pointless skill checks, and the admittedly innovative trade system. It then slaps a completely forgettable story on top of it all and allows you to stumble through it. It was a clumsy game, an awkward attempt at bringing a more traditional bent to the alien that was NWN2. Pool of Radiance Remastered was a much better game (module) than SoZ was, which was fan written under the same engine.

Want more real D&D full party, tactical goodness? Play Gateway to the Savage Frontier, or even Temple of Elemental Evil instead.

Also, in before Volourn descends upon this hapless thread. Behold!
 

Renevent

Cipher
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Messages
925
It felt extremely like PoR...I'm speaking gameplay wise here. I don't consider story a big part of what I look for in cRPG's. If story is the measuring stick you base your enjoyment of games on, that fine, but that's not something I share nor is it any kind of rule or requirement.

Also, played Savage Frontier as well as ToEE (many, many times). ToEE is actually among my favorite RPG's ever, and I'd agree it's better than SoZ.

"Lots of storyfags ITT"

Heh...that's a pretty colorful way to put it :P
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
Want more real D&D full party, tactical goodness? Play Gateway to the Savage Frontier, or even Temple of Elemental Evil instead.

How about, play to death every CRPG you can get your grubby mitts on because they're as rare as hen's teeth?

And ToEE has better combat due to it being turn-based, but SoZ is still worth a run.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,236
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
What sucks though is since the game didn't do so well we probably won't get a game like it again, at least not from a major developer/publisher. :(

1) Who said it didn't do so well? I'm sure it sold well for its low budget.
2) LOL "major developer/publisher". Kickstarter, man.
 

Renevent

Cipher
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Messages
925
What sucks though is since the game didn't do so well we probably won't get a game like it again, at least not from a major developer/publisher. :(

1) Who said it didn't do so well? I'm sure it sold well for its low budget.
2) LOL "major developer/publisher". Kickstarter, man.

I don't know if it did well to be honest, I assumed it didn't. I know about KS already and have a couple game backed actually. With that said, most KS cRPG's do lack a certain production value you only get from larger developers. That's not the only thing that matters of course, but it would be nice if we could also get a few games that have all the bells and whistles in addition to the awesome games also coming out on kickstarter.
 

King Crispy

Too bad I have no queen.
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
1,876,562
Location
Future Wasteland
Strap Yourselves In
How can you compare a true TB, static overhead camera game like PoR to NWN2's RTwP with awkward camera controls and say that they felt extremely alike? o_O

We're also comparing two quite different versions of D&D rules here, the AD&D set vs. NWN2's radically altered D&D 3.5.

You're reaching on this particular point, newfag.
 

Renevent

Cipher
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Messages
925
I said the feel of the game, meaning the overall experience the game provided. Rules were obviously different, but the the presentation and inspiration of the game was very much like PoR. Playing SoZ I was reminded a lot of playing PoR way back in the day, and that style of cRPG.

Now quiet up, storyfag, and go back to your bromances and homo-eroticism (see, I can insult too!).
 

King Crispy

Too bad I have no queen.
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
1,876,562
Location
Future Wasteland
Strap Yourselves In
SoZ is still worth a run.

I never said it wasn't, but not for the reasons OP is implying. One should not play SoZ looking for the same type of gameplay experience that PoR provides. The two are as different in nature and feeling as PS:T is from MotB. Both good games, but completely different in many ways. And SoZ, while maybe worth a test drive, doesn't compare to any of these.
 

King Crispy

Too bad I have no queen.
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
1,876,562
Location
Future Wasteland
Strap Yourselves In
I said the feel of the game, meaning the overall experience the game provided. Rules were obviously different, but the the presentation and inspiration of the game was very much like PoR.

The overall experience that a Dungeons and Dragons game provides on a computer, I suppose you mean. But that's where the comparison ends. You say that the feel of the two games was the same, but the only things that I can think of that you might mean are that you create some fantasy characters, like fighters and wizards and dwarves and the like, then you venture out into a world and fight creatures, gain experience points, and amass treasure. All the while following along with the story.

That's it. There is no more comparison to make. We're talking about two different planets in terms of the gameplay itself; the rulesets used, the games' engines, the cameras, the way combat takes place, and for that matter the pace of each game, the graphics, the sounds, the art style, etc., were all fundamentally different.

You might as well concede this point because you're so far off there's no way you can save this argument. I'm sure you'll try, but you're going to fail.

Also, remember, you are new here. This is RPG Codex. Even I'm still a newfag.
 

Sceptic

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
10,871
Divinity: Original Sin
The two are as different in nature and feeling as PS:T is from MotB. Both good games, but completely different in many ways.
And also very similar in many ways, which is what Revenent was talking about in the first place. TBH your analogy of PST and MotB only reinforces his point.
 

King Crispy

Too bad I have no queen.
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
1,876,562
Location
Future Wasteland
Strap Yourselves In
Sceptic said:
And also very similar in many ways, which is what Revenent was talking about in the first place. TBH your analogy of PST and MotB only reinforces his point.

The only thing I've seen him say that qualifies his comparison of the two games being similar is the following:

the presentation and inspiration of the game was very much like PoR

He's already eliminated the story specific aspects himself so these things are all we really have to go on. Let's look at both.

The presentation of PoR is one of a classic Advanced Dungeons and Dragons adventure that takes place primarily within a city's walls, with exploration taking place in first person step fashion, switching to overhead static camera once combat begins. This is completely turn-based, handled by the venerable AD&D ruleset. I think the art style might best be described as "spartan", or "as good as can be expected", since there's simply not much more you can expect with EGA/VGA-era graphics other than the occasional colorful little vest drawn on a character or a sort of blobby-looking brick wall-type thing. But, it was still attractive in its own primary way, and didn't distract from the overall experience. You fight classic AD&D monsters like orcs and ogres and eventually get to fight a powerful dragon at the end. The whole thing strikes me as simulating a classic AD&D module or module arc quite well. The "feeling" is that of allowing your computer to fill in for the other players' roles who are missing and for a DM in handling your adventures through this "module". It's a memorable experience and leaves one with the impression they've saved a city's populace and done away with a great evil while struggling, mightily at times, to overcome the odds.

The presentation of Storm of Zehir is one of newer D&D adventure where all the rules are changed. Not only are most of the restrictions removed from your character types but so are those of how you 'view' the adventure this time: we have much more advanced graphics that, oddly, don't do much to enhance the experience, we have a fully controllable camera which often causes more frustration than it solves, and we have a much more open world to be able to roam in. No more enclosed spaces like Phlan to adventure in, this time we're out in the countryside weaving our way in and out of (in real time) wandering creature icons (some of which are pretty bizarre). When combat does occur, it does so completely in real time unless you hit the spacebar, and it does a poor job of recreating the combat rules it as a game itself is supposed to be built on and inspired from. Tactical operations take second place to the "dynamic" feeling that dominates today's RPG design philosophy. This game "feels" more like a simulation of how an adventuring company might go about elevating itself to that of a corporate-driven entity rather than that of one who seeks to become heroes or famous through their deeds. Dungeons are very small, dialog and storyline feel completely different and attempt to achieve more 'epic' status which is also typical for more modern RPG's, and there seems to be a distinct lack of focus in SoZ. That point may not be a fault in many's eyes, but it's certainly a large difference in comparing the "feeling" of the two games.

That's how I'd compare the two on OP's terms. If I'm way off myself, so be it. I would appreciate clarification if I am, however, because if it's now common opinion that two games like PoR and SoZ are presented in the same way, or give off the same "feeling", or even compare favorably, it may be time for me to retire from the world of CRPG's and fade into the days of yore when things just made more sense.

Heh. That sure sounds funny coming from me, doesn't it?
 

Renevent

Cipher
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Messages
925
The presentation of PoR is one of a classic Advanced Dungeons and Dragons adventure that takes place primarily within a city's walls, with exploration taking place in first person step fashion, switching to overhead static camera once combat begins.

And, you know, also on a world map where your party is represented by a unit and explore around. Also the same is the world map had random encounters with various points of interest...though SoZ did this aspect better (fuck you stirges!).

This is completely turn-based, handled by the venerable AD&D ruleset.

Very true, and actually I like TB better. The reality is both are still D&D games. Both focus on party based combat. Both are very combat driven RPG's, which is why storyfags seems to dislike it.

I think the art style might best be described as "spartan", or "as good as can be expected", since there's simply not much more you can expect with EGA/VGA-era graphics other than the occasional colorful little vest drawn on a character or a sort of blobby-looking brick wall-type thing. But, it was still attractive in its own primary way, and didn't distract from the overall experience. You fight classic AD&D monsters like orcs and ogres and eventually get to fight a powerful dragon at the end. The whole thing strikes me as simulating a classic AD&D module or module arc quite well.

Graphics are hard to compare obviously due to the HUGE generation gap between these games. With that said, a lot of the same qualities exist for both games. PoR had it's share of wights and vampires as well as phase-beasts and all sorts of different enemies...it wasn't just orcs and ogres. Likewise, even though SoZ had different cast of monsters they do share quite a few together.

The "feeling" is that of allowing your computer to fill in for the other players' roles who are missing and for a DM in handling your adventures through this "module". It's a memorable experience and leaves one with the impression they've saved a city's populace and done away with a great evil while struggling, mightily at times, to overcome the odds.

I feel that actually sums up SoZ quite nicely. I filled in their roles just the same...and was very memorable. A rag tag of adventurers off on a quest for profit and adventure who eventually are caught up in a greater struggle :D

Anyways I could go on for a bit more...but here's the bottom line for me. My first cRPG's were the gold box games and I hold them in very high esteem. Playing SoZ it instantly brought me back to that feeling of exploring new Phlan, setting out on the open road, and taking a party (that I created!) out on an adventure. It's an old school design and while the games are clearly not perfect matches, I believe there is enough similarity to make the comparison.
 

Rpgsaurus Rex

Guest
To give some context to this thread, my first cRPG was Pool of Radiance from SSI. It's a type of game I'm very fond of and something that doesn't get made anymore.

So with that said, NWN2: SoZ was really excellent IMO. Creating an entire party of your own making, exploring a large overland map with lots of points of interest, and setting up a trade company was very fun and well done. I think it's the closest recent game we've had to PoR and other similar games and wish more were made.

It has some rough edges, but I think it give gamers a lot more freedom then what you typically get from most other major RPG's these days, especially the 'bro-mance simulators' coming from Bioware.
It was sozzy. Youa re dumb.

You can't even write out a simple sentence properly, and you call me dumb? Hah!

stop the lies, start the truths. FFS
 

Renevent

Cipher
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Messages
925
Truth huh? How about this for truth...gorilla.bas was the best game featuring gorillas that was ever made.
 

Dorateen

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Messages
4,332
Location
The Crystal Mist Mountains
. It's a pity the NWN2 module community has never been very lively, SoZ's systems could have lead to downright fantastic adventures.

There are some NWN2 campaigns that took advantage of the new SoZ features. Look up a module Edinmoor by some person named Dorateen on the Neverwinter Vault.

As for the OP, this Renevent fellow has got his head screwed on right. It amazes me how many people miss the point of the significance of Storm of Zehir, that it represented a return to classical RPGs in spite of, and in the face of howling biodrones who demanded more romances and forced companions and scoffed at the idea of player created parties ever being featured again. (Boy, has that been proven wrong.)

Of course SoZ, as a 2nd expansion pack, cannot live up to a full cRPG title like Pool of Radiance, or Temple of Elemental Evil. It lacks turn-based combat among other qualities, and depth of story. However, it remains a fantastic exploration adventure, recapturing many old school elements, which have already been detailed in previous posts.

Personally, I recommend going into the toolset using the campaign plug-in and increasing the max party size to 6. Then you can really run with your Gold Box party. And Tempest's Fury with the djinn was another fine example of one of SoZ's charming mini-dungeons.
 

Erebus

Arcane
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
4,763
Tempest's Fury with the djinn was an exception to SoZ's usually boring mini-dungeons.

Fixed.

Seriously, how many of the mini-dungeons were any fun at all ? Tempest's Fury, the Temple of Umberlee and maybe one or two yuan-ti temples are pretty much all I can remember. The rest had zero imagination. And most of the fights in the game aren't entertaining.
 

Renevent

Cipher
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Messages
925
That's an awesome one...not a large area...but it was really cool to come across it.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom