Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Squeenix NieR: Automata from Yoko Taro and Platinum Games

ilitarist

Learned
Illiterate Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 17, 2016
Messages
857
I'm on my first playthrough. Was rather irritated by the fact that intro chapter has no saves, I derped and died in the final fight of the intro chapter.

Funny how this game quickly changes. At first it feels like I'm playing Fallout with French maid as the main character and now I'm having a race with a robot and looking for stamps in the amusement park and can do Sokoban. It seems Japanese games have a set of tropes they're happy to inser in any game. Deadly Premonition was a Twin Peaks: The Game, but it also had an open world, a lot of minigames, some sort of character development system, fishing, buying new stuff, changing costumes. There's always some sort of comfy progression system in those games and always some way to grind indefinitely and do meaningless increasingly complex sidequests. I wonder if Japanese today even consider RPG a separate genre because there's probably little systemic difference between Deadly Premonition and, say, Final Fantasy 15.
 

Jacob

Pronouns: Nick/Her
Patron
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
3,348
Location
Hatington
Grab the Codex by the pussy
Honestly the no save itself isn't a problem, old DMC games don't have save mid stage too, you die at the boss you repeat the whole stage.

The problem is the boring shooter and top-down sequences you have to replay.
 

ilitarist

Learned
Illiterate Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 17, 2016
Messages
857
And there's long unskippable intro where 2B talks about killing a god and then you're all flying for a while and then giant lazer kills your friends 5 times.
 

yellowcake

Arcane
Joined
Dec 11, 2007
Messages
2,907
Location
Alas! in my skull
I'd completed the game already man. And yeah, I've read the whole thread at FAR, apparently there is a bug with caching shader data. One can succeed if being persistent which I was.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,859
Hilariously enough, plotwise 2B is mostly irrelevant. She kills stuff and serves as a emotional crutch to 9S, and that's it.

She has the least character, least "personality" and no growth even considering THE REVEAL. Her combat style is fun, but A2 shares the same moveset with the extra of Berserk Mode and even more taunt animations. 9S has a kinda interesting "arc" and even A2 has more plot to her despite 15% of the screentime of 2B.


A2 takes 2B memories. Meaning A2 no longer is A2 but mix of A2 and 2B and has changed personality due to that.

She can't die because she isn't alive in first place. If she is android then if she transfer all her memory and mix it with A2 then she is still "alive", just part of A2 or mix of A2 and B2.

It is one of the themes in Automata.
 

Saark

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Messages
2,228
A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
To be fair N:A won quite a few RPG of the year awards, though the most prestigious one (ours) eluded him. There was the awkward situation with the DICE awards, where Square didn't send any people to accept the award and one SE employee in charge of their twitter said they didn't send anyone because they didn't expect to get it in the first place.

Hilarity followed.
 

ilitarist

Learned
Illiterate Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 17, 2016
Messages
857
Don't get the whole adoration for that game, they even get awards.

Maybe PC gamers were starved for anime but they got Final Fantasy XV which looks to me much more approachable and polished. Or maybe FF15 wasn't anime enough.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,859
Don't get the whole adoration for that game, they even get awards.

Maybe PC gamers were starved for anime but they got Final Fantasy XV which looks to me much more approachable and polished. Or maybe FF15 wasn't anime enough.


Maybe you should play it first. I also wasn't that hot about it when i was yet to play. I got it mostly because Platinum never made shit action game so at least i could get good action game out of it.
 
Self-Ejected

aweigh

Self-Ejected
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
17,978
Location
Florida
whoever thinks FF15 and Nier Automata are comparable in any way shape or form is a fucking retard.
 

ilitarist

Learned
Illiterate Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 17, 2016
Messages
857
I played it to completion, I mean three times. I too like Platinum and think MGR Revengeance was one of the best action games ever. I found Nier lacking challenge and gameplay depth of MGRR, almost no memorable fights, repetetive as hell. Story is superfluously similar to MGRR as it's at the same time over the top, pretends to be philosophical tale and has a lot of farce and fanservice. But in MGRR it was balanced, here the game definitely wants me to not to laugh about child robots killing themselves because they were taught what fear is or to be surprised when it turns out that yet another group of machines turns out to be murderous gang.

The only thing this game does better than any other games out there is being anime as hell and I'd expected FF15 to beat it in that regard. It's also surprisingly casual for Platinum game (after the bullshit 1st chapter where you can be oneshot and have to replay everything) so maybe somehow it got wider appeal that way.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,859
whoever thinks FF15 and Nier Automata are comparable in any way shape or form is a fucking retard.
Is FFXV any good?

No.

Story sucks (and there is barely any of it [finished in 23 hours and i could do it in 15 or less if i didn't grind those shitty quests])
Game-play is boring.
Characters are meh.
AND THERE IS NO JOURNEY despite game trying to sell you that journey.
Sidequests are 95% kill xxx/find xxx mindless quests.
Made for 15 year old gays.

Only good about it is graphics.

Early Access Fantasy 15

Also it is one of those games where you get legit angry after playing because you can't just believe how fucking dumb devs were because with slight adjustments it could be great game and great FF game.

edit:

Like whole Luna plot is beyond dumb. IT is like they designed 100 hour game and they decided to take out everything after 15 hours from it and then bring last 5 hours and 1 hour of random events in between with absolutely 0 buildup.

BUT HEY don't forget to buy movie ! We had money for that lol.
 
Last edited:

LESS T_T

Arcane
Joined
Oct 5, 2012
Messages
13,582
Codex 2014
Comprehensive report on the GDC talk. Looks like it was disappointingly useful talk!: https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news...gned_and_tuned_Nier_Automata_to_feel_good.php

How Platinum designed and tuned Nier: Automata to 'feel' good

Platinum Games made waves last year with Nier: Automata, an action-RPG about that androids that asks what it means to be human.

At the Game Developers Conference in San Francisco today, game director Yoko Taro and game designer Takahisa Taura took the stage (along with a translator) to chat about about the game came together -- and the challenges they faced along the way.

“When it came to Nier: Automata, we at Platinum Games were especially concerned with making the responses to the player input 'feel' really, really good,” Taura said. “If pressing a button doesn’t cause an immediate action, then the player will become frustrated while playing. And if playing is frustrating, then it’s not going to feel good. It’s pretty simple.”

For Platinum, speed is often a critical factor. Taura said the team wanted Automata players to see a response as soon as they pressed a button, and so the devs took pains to ensure actions like jumping and dodging could always be executed immediately.

“So in games where dodging is important, like Automata or Bayonetta, we try to make sure there’s never a time you can’t dodge,” he added. “We make sure of that right from the very beginning.”

“However, in the final game [Automata], there are certain situations when you can’t dodge, such as when you’re in the middle of taking a hit,” he continued. “So we set a special flag to disable dodges, so you won’t be able to dodge during that time….we concluded that from both a visual and game balance perspective, not being able to dodge actually felt better.”

"An immediate response after you push a button -- that leads to the game feeling really fun"

Taura added that “responsiveness” in a game isn’t just about how fast something appears to happen after a player presses a button -- it’s also about how quickly the player sees the result. So in Automata, for example, if the player presses the attack button while their character is stationary, the attack and hitbox come out almost immediately -- Taura says it takes about ten frames, or 0.16 seconds after the player hits the button.

“We make the time it takes for a basic attack to count as hitting the enemy as short as possible,” he continued. “We place importance on both the responsiveness of the attack button...and on the result of the attack.”

While not all attacks in the game work this way, Taura believes that having this basic, standard attack be so speedy makes the whole game feel more responsive and dynamic.

“When there is an immediate response after you push a button -- that leads to the game feeling really fun,” he added.

Iteration was also a big talking point for Taura, who suggested that devs who want their games to “feel” good put a lot of time into reviewing the game and making detailed adjustments to things like animation timing or attack/hit triggers.

As an example, he mentioned the “Track enemy” flag the Automata dev team used to earmark specific attack animations. If the flag was enabled, the game checks to see if an enemy is within a certain radius and turns the character to face the enemy.

The dev team specifically used this flag on the early stages of combat animations to ensure that when players start attacking, they will automatically turn to target the enemy. They had to fine-tune the timing: if the flag was too briefly enabled, it’s too hard for the player to hit an enemy; if it’s enabled for too long during an animation, it makes the player character look robotic and removes too much of the challenge.

“It does take a very long time, and depends heavily on the sense of the person doing the work,” Taura added. He also claimed that the game designers and animators at Platinum often work very closely together to nail down animation timing that “feels good”; animators will animate an attack, then designers will test it in the game and suggest detailed adjustments that the animators then integrate into a new version.

“To sum up, these are the things we consider very important to achieve our goal of action that feels good the moment you first touch it: create a very clear plan for what ‘feels good’, precisely identify the good and the bad, and perform a very detailed fine-tuning cycle,” concluded Taura. “But it’s also important to remember that there’s no absolute correct answer to be found. That’s exactly why it’s important to have a very clear vision or plan from the very beginning.”

Taura then ceded the stage to Taro Yoko, who sat behind the podium wearing a mask and stated that what we wanted to talk about was simple: freedom.

"To make people feel a sense of freedom, what’s important is not volume"

“There might be some people today in the audience who came here expecting to hear about the scenario creation process,” Taro said. “I apologize, I may disappoint you today.”

He went on to say that it would be incorrect to label either Nier Automata or its precedessor Nier as an “open-world” game, stating he basically ripped off The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time when making Nier.

“Since Nier copied that, it actually has very little freedom when compared to the open-world games we have now,” Taro said.

So when thinking about how to design Automata, Taro spent some time dwelling on the notion of “open-world game fatigue”. He claims that over the last few years he noticed that many people seemed worn out on games like Skyrim and Grand Theft Auto, constantly complaining about giant maps filled with tons of mindless fetch jobs and empty side quests.

“How did we get to this point where people complain about having a high level of freedom, even though a high level of freedom is what they were supposed to be expecting?” Taro said. “I think it’s fair to say that a state of a high level of freedom does not equate to the actual sensation of feeling free. And that is very unique to games.”

In an effort to avoid this problem with Automata, Taro said he looked to a few other games for inspiration, most notably Super Mario Bros. and its infamous warp zones.

“I was able to move my character all the way up to the top of the map [above the top bricks in 1-1] and from there I was able to warp,” said Taro. “The place where the score was was a hidden secret. I was absolutely shocked: what was going on here? Seeing that smashed my entire idea of how the world was framed, and made me think this game contained an enormous world.”

“In order to foster this idea of freedom, what’s important is the moment your perceived framework of the world suddenly expands,” said Taro. “The most important part here is ‘Oh! I didn’t think I could do that, but I could.’”

Thus, Taro concludes that -- at least in game design -- “freedom” is a future that the player did not have in the past.

“What I’m trying to say here is, to make people feel a sense of freedom, what’s important is not volume,” Taro added. “Freedom is felt the moment that the perceptions held by the human mind are expanded.”

For example, in Nier, Taro says the team worked to build a world with a discernable framework and limits -- then build beyond that. But since the team didn’t have the biggest budget, they worked inward instead of outward; they designed a world, then tried to design a smaller, more contained world within that and make the player (incorrectly) assume that was the edge of the whole world.

“So broadly speaking, the original Nier scenario is structured in this manner,” said Taro. “Nier is structured such that players will go around the same map multiple times. The reason is simple: we did not have the budget to make a large map.”

“So you first present the character as a child, then you present them as a youth on the same map, then when that’s done you watch Ending A,” said Taro. “Of course, that’s also a copy of Ocarina of Time! So after watching Ending A, it’s then possible to replay just the section of time where the character is older, but that’s when a new element comes into play: you can now understand the enemy’s voices.”

This adds a flip side to the story the player already knows, and if they press on they’ll watch Ending B -- and see that the world is bigger than they knew.

“In Nier, by showing players Ending A, you give them the false impression that the game is over, or that the world is smaller, said Taro. “But then by showing them Ending B, I was hoping to show them that the world is larger than they could have imagined.”

When work on Automata began, Taro says that since everyone knew about the ending structure of Nier, so the team tried to make some changes: they’d still use the same “multiple runs through the same small map” approach, but instead have players switch perspectives and play different characters on different runs.

“Once players reach ending B, we make them feel the game is over,” Taro continued. “So fans of the previous games, they know there’s another route. So they’ll be playing the game with the assumption that it wil end once, they’ll get this alternate route, and then we counter that expectation by giving them yet another alternate route to play, expanding their understanding of the world.”

Finally, Taro talked a bit about how the team came up with the game’s final sequence, where players fight an overwhelming enemy and can see messages of encouragement from other players who have done the same.



“The truth is, this genius idea is not mine; I stole this one too,” said Taro. “It’s from a campaign called ‘Coca-Cola Small World Machines.’”

According to Taro, it’s an ad campaign that the beverage company deployed between two countries (India and Pakistan) that were on bad terms; it told a story of how two countries at odds with each other can learn to get along.

“That project left an extremely strong impression on me; you don’t have ot look very far in today’s real world to see it is overflowing with hatred,” said Taro. “We are capable of detesting people we’ve never seen or met before, and so I was really inspired by this project and what it tried to do.”

“So just like Coca-Cola did, I wanted to use this final message in Nier Automata,” he continued. “I wanted people to see messages of encouragement from players in other countries, so they would realize that the people they hated were just like them.”

Taro said the original plan was to set it up so that specific players would see specific messages from other players, but it wasn’t quite feasible. Instead, the team compromised and set it up so that players would see messages of encouragement from around the world at random.

“I don’t know what a player will think when they see this,” said Taro. “That’s exactly the kind of video game freedom I wanted to make this time.”

“Just like I was influenced by that Coca-Cola campaign, I hope the people who took the time to play this game think about someone they don’t know in another country, even if just for a little bit,” concluded Taro. “That would make me extremely happy.”
 

ilitarist

Learned
Illiterate Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 17, 2016
Messages
857
>“In Nier, by showing players Ending A, you give them the false impression that the game is over, or that the world is smaller, said Taro.

But if you play the game for twice as long you'll learn there's one more textureless location.
 

Tehdagah

Arcane
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Messages
9,323
"When there is an immediate response after you push a button -- that leads to the game feeling really fun,” he added.

The next "See that mountain? You can climb it."
 

Abu Antar

Turn-based Poster
Patron
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
13,553
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
"When there is an immediate response after you push a button -- that leads to the game feeling really fun,” he added.

The next "See that mountain? You can climb it."
He was more talking about animations and how they blend together. There shouldn't be any imput lag and so on. Nothing wrong with what he's saying, but taking things out of context sure is fun.
 

Tehdagah

Arcane
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Messages
9,323
"When there is an immediate response after you push a button -- that leads to the game feeling really fun,” he added.

The next "See that mountain? You can climb it."
He was more talking about animations and how they blend together. There shouldn't be any imput lag and so on. Nothing wrong with what he's saying, but taking things out of context sure is fun.
He's talking about basic stuff.
 

Abu Antar

Turn-based Poster
Patron
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
13,553
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
"When there is an immediate response after you push a button -- that leads to the game feeling really fun,” he added.

The next "See that mountain? You can climb it."
He was more talking about animations and how they blend together. There shouldn't be any imput lag and so on. Nothing wrong with what he's saying, but taking things out of context sure is fun.
He's talking about basic stuff.
Basic stuff that should be obvious to every action game developer but isn't.
 

ilitarist

Learned
Illiterate Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 17, 2016
Messages
857
I don't get it too. Are there any counter-examples? He clearly doesn't talk about the speed of the reaction, some classic arcade games like Castelvania are built around attack lag, yet you instantly see your character reaction after you press a button.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom