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Decline Now that the dust has settled, can we admit that Disco Elysium is decline?

Pink Eye

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>Yes, you can develop your character from the mechanical side, but by limiting to that you are limiting his development as a character-person.
[...] it is the mechanics that are more profound than the abstract. For it is the mechanics in which demonstrates the character's capabilities by giving you direct feed back. This feed back fundamentally enforces the choices you made upon creating the character. This nuance reflects and supports your role playing choices by supplementing them within the rules, and via the game play systems. In other words the mechanics and game play systems are being used as a means to support those choice in a impactful way.
It doesn't really change anything I've said though.

Yes, the mechanics are there to serve as a reference point (who you are, what you can do), but it doesn't invalidate the point that outside of mechanical development there is the whole character's personal development/growth which you simply can't put down in numbers. And that, in my opinion, is the most important aspect of playing an RPG: not only playing as a mechanical character, but also as someone who has his own history, goals, feelings, etc. The system is there to support this, however, for some reason you keep putting the system before the player.

Bloodlines still had combat [...]
When I said "Vampire the Masquerade" I wasn't talking about Bloodlines. I was talking about the PnP RPG system.

Combat is not an item to check off in a list. It is an ingredient that is necessary for the role playing experience to be complete. Just as how a good sound track, story telling, companions, and setting; are all essential ingredients.
Not sure who you're arguing here with. I never said combat is not part of the RPG experience. What I question is the focus. You can play any RPG like tactical combat game/wargame, but then you're not there for the role playing: you're there for combat. If I want to play games for their combat I look for combat games, not RPGs. That's why my gold standard for cRPGs is closer to games like Planescape: Torment or Fallout 2, rather than Icewind Dale 1/2.

>It isn't [a nonsensical question]. The same word can be understood differently from person to person. If you can't define what's meaningful, then we can't discuss it.
Very well let's ground this debate, shall we. Can you provide us with an instance in which a story based progression system was able to exist without mechanics supporting it? And, was that system far more meaningful than a DnD/Pathfinder based system?
You're missing the point. I never said that "a story based progression system is able to exist without mechanics supporting it", because I never ever questioned that Disco has mechanics supporting character's progression in the first place.

What I keep asking for is "what's meaningful character development?" (and the follow-up question "can character development only be mechanical?").
>>They serve to enrich the role playing experience by reflecting the choices and decisions you made.
>>Adds another dimension to the experience of role playing by simulating the consequences of those choices within the rule system.
>>Story elements are just the icing on the cake.
>For some reason you keep putting the system before the player.
Because all of that math is what facilitates you to develop interesting and unique compelling characters. It's the skeleton in which all of that flavor is based off of. It's the foundation that allows you to develop your characters even further through story and social interactions, backgrounds, motivations, and so on. That,"complex mathematical equations and in-depth tactical encounters", is what makes it compelling. You take that out, and you're left with a hollow system. It's why we're having debates on whether or not DE is even an RPG. Which I try to stay out of. Such discussions are not productive and always serve to confuse rather than illuminate. Sure, we can discuss the composition in which makes a game an RPG, but that won't achieve anything. For RPGs are more of a spectrum, everyone will have different opinions on the term.

>I was talking about the PnP RPG system.
Vampire the Masquerade still has systems in place to support combat: https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Combat_Systems
Vampire the Masquerade is a very mechanical based system. Just because your DM allows you flexibility in how you deal with encounters, does not negate the fact.

>"What's meaningful character development?"
I've already given you my answer. Feats, Skills, Stats; the mechanics in other words. And the game play systems in which simulate those mechanics, i.e. combat. It's the most direct and observable means to measure character development in a way that is impactful.

>Can character development only be mechanical?
No. But these systems, math, and rules are the most significant when developing and growing a character.
 
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Harthwain

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Because all of that math is what facilitates you to develop interesting and unique compelling characters. It's the skeleton in which all of that flavor is based off of. It's the foundation that allows you to develop your characters even further through story and social interactions, backgrounds, motivations, and so on. That,"complex mathematical equations and in-depth tactical encounters", is what makes it compelling. You take that out, and you're left with a hollow system. It's why we're having debates on whether or not DE is even an RPG.
By the same token Neo Scavenger isn't RPG either, because it lacks a meticulously written out system and minutia associated with it (you only have a bunch of abilities and flaws you pick during character creation), and its combat isn't complex either (just a bunch of moves that don't require going deep into math). Yet I consider it to be one of the best cRPGs, given the amount of freedom it gives to the player when it comes to interacting with the world.

People who debate if Disco is even an RPG have their agenda/preferences, but it doesn't mean they're objectively correct. Is the system "hollow"? Not really. In fact, a lot of people say it's great and the number people who don't is bordering the level of statistical error. Futhermore, the system that Disco uses is an actual PnP RPG sytem, complete with dice rolls and all. I already covered my explanation on why Disco has combat (and why it's done in the manner it's done), so I won't be bringing it up again (unless you really want to).

That's why I say you are ultimately wrong: yes, the system is needed as a base for the character (in this we both agree), but you're wrong in saying that it HAS to be as complex and detailed as possible. And Disco is a living proof of that. You don't need complex if simple suffices. You only need complex if simple isn't enough.

>I was talking about the PnP RPG system.
Vampire the Masquerade still has systems in place to support combat: https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Combat_Systems
I know. I never denied it and combat wasn't the point when I used VtM as a point of reference. The point was that its system recognized the elements I was speaking about (non-mechanical aspects of the character), which you tried to hand-wave away as "icing on the cake" and focused on combat instead.

>"What's meaningful character development?"
I've already given you my answer. Feats, Skills, Stats; the mechanics in other words. And the game play systems in which simulate those mechanics, i.e. combat. It's the most direct and observable means to measure character development in a way that is impactful.
As I have given you mine. Everything breaks down around the word "meaningful":

having a meaning or purpose

Does Disco's skill system has "a meaning or purpose"? It has. Does it impact what you can do or not? It does. Does it "enrich the role playing experience"? Hell, yes. So I see no reason to say that Disco has no meaningful character development.

>Can character development only be mechanical?
No. But these systems, math, and rules are the most significant when developing and growing a character.
That's where we disagree. Again. You saying that the mechanical side is the most most significant™, while I say that the mechanical side serves mainly to supporting role. That while the character can grow mechanically (which he does, in Disco), he can also grow non-mechanically (which he does, in Disco).
 
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Eyestabber

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I never even considered Disco Elysium to be an RPG, rather an adventure game with some RPG mechanics mixed in. This isn't a criticism, mind you, just an observation.
 

Harthwain

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I never even considered Disco Elysium to be an RPG, rather an adventure game with some RPG mechanics mixed in. This isn't a criticism, mind you, just an observation.
This begs the question when something is an RPG and when it merely has "some RPG mechanics mixed in".
:grpg:

To the lab!
 

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