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NWN2 OC was not bad as people make it out

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
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20,522
I am yet to see game that does the evil aspect ok.

Mask of The Betrayer.
Oh yes. MotB's really truly Evil ending not only goes past the moral horizon but blew it up with a thermonuclear device and pissed all over the remains.
What is the evil ending? I did decide to shove the bastard back in wall or something similar.
You embrace the hunger and become the Spiriteater for real. The gods become so fearful of your predations over the spirits that they gang up against you. Less than half of them return from the fight, and no one knows what happened to you, not even the gods.

Evil Ending
 

Sizzle

Arcane
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Santander02

Arcane
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Sep 29, 2009
Messages
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It was actually kind of freaky, you become the shadow king's right hand lieutenant and go on to commit all manner of disturbing atrocities, like capturing your stepdad as he went looking for you, ripping his face off, and magically sticking it to a pillar just to listen to his cries when the wind blows as sort of depraved parody of those elven song pillars was the one that stuck out the most.
You are also stuck patrolling the KoS' domain forever because he isn't going to budge from the old Illefarn area.

It is a pretty shitty ending. With the good ending you can get closure in MotB. The Evil ending was basically ignored in MotB.

At the time, when we didn't know if we were gonna get an expansion, or that it would be any good, it was the better ending (which granted isn't exactly an acomplishment). And this thread is for nwn2 only, but yes, MoTB evil ending was on whole other level villany (and the evil route in general, forcing that old red wizard bitch to have her soul eaten by her own ex lover was very satisfying)
 

Cael

Arcane
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At the time, when we didn't know if we were gonna get an expansion, or that it would be any good, it was the better ending (which granted isn't exactly an acomplishment). And this thread is for nwn2 only, but yes, MoTB evil ending was on whole other level villany (and the evil route in general, forcing that old red wizard bitch to have her soul eaten by her own ex lover was very satisfying)
Stabbing the whiny half-celestial halfwit bitch to death was also very satisfying. "The Wall, the Wall, the Wa-urk!" Have a nice afterlife in the Fugue Plain with the rest of the Faithless, bitch!
 

Santander02

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I liked Kaelyn but I too decided not to Tear Down That Wall on my good playtrough, and she attacked me with no option to reason with her, apparently her grandpa is supposed to intervene just as you are about to finish her off but that never happened to me so I was just like, girl, are you serious?? and had to kill her.

On my evil playtrough I was playing an LE charismatic bastard and enjoyed messing with her naivety, lying to her about oh how righteous her cause is and how I would totally join her on her crusade (for my own ends), and was surprised how she actually bought the whole thing until the very end, before she and Gann attacked me after consuming Akachi she spouted something along the lines of "the man I followed was a champion of goodness (tm), not the empty thing that stands before me!" I could just imagine my character guffawing at that before eating her soul.

Ah, meh-ish oc aside it was a good game overall, I wonder if we'll ever get NWN 3 someday...
 
Last edited:

Cael

Arcane
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Messages
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I liked Kaelyn but I too decided not to Tear Down That Wall on my good playtrough, and she attacked me with no option to reason with her, apparently her grandpa is supposed to intervene just as you are about to finish her off but that never happened to me so I was just like, girl, are you serious?? and had to kill her.

On my evil playtrough I was playing an LE charismatic bastard and enjoyed messing with her naivety, lying to her about oh how righteous her cause is and how I would totally join her on her crusade (for my own ends), and was surprised how she actually bought the whole thing until the very end, before she and Gann attacked me after consuming Akachi she spouted something along the lines of "the man I followed was a champion of goodness (tm), not the empty thing that stands before me!" I could just imagine my character guffawing at that before eating her soul.

Ah, meh-ish oc aside it was a good game overall, I wonder if we'll ever get NWN 3 someday...
Informed Wisdom stat = 24
Actual Wisdom stat = 3

Sad part is, there are people who actually think she made sense and that her post-modernist whines had any bearing at all in a magic heavy setting like the Forgotten Realms where gods run around blowing each other up and avatars walk the lands.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
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I liked Kaelyn but I too decided not to Tear Down That Wall on my good playtrough, and she attacked me with no option to reason with her, apparently her grandpa is supposed to intervene just as you are about to finish her off but that never happened to me so I was just like, girl, are you serious?? and had to kill her.

On my evil playtrough I was playing an LE charismatic bastard and enjoyed messing with her naivety, lying to her about oh how righteous her cause is and how I would totally join her on her crusade (for my own ends), and was surprised how she actually bought the whole thing until the very end, before she and Gann attacked me after consuming Akachi she spouted something along the lines of "the man I followed was a champion of goodness (tm), not the empty thing that stands before me!" I could just imagine my character guffawing at that before eating her soul.

Ah, meh-ish oc aside it was a good game overall, I wonder if we'll ever get NWN 3 someday...
Informed Wisdom stat = 24
Actual Wisdom stat = 3

Sad part is, there are people who actually think she made sense and that her post-modernist whines had any bearing at all in a magic heavy setting like the Forgotten Realms where gods run around blowing each other up and avatars walk the lands.
Yeah,the atheism in the expansion was annoying. You can fire sparks from your hand and bring down the divine flame of your god,but nah atheism. Their believe really didn't fit with the world.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,522
I liked Kaelyn but I too decided not to Tear Down That Wall on my good playtrough, and she attacked me with no option to reason with her, apparently her grandpa is supposed to intervene just as you are about to finish her off but that never happened to me so I was just like, girl, are you serious?? and had to kill her.

On my evil playtrough I was playing an LE charismatic bastard and enjoyed messing with her naivety, lying to her about oh how righteous her cause is and how I would totally join her on her crusade (for my own ends), and was surprised how she actually bought the whole thing until the very end, before she and Gann attacked me after consuming Akachi she spouted something along the lines of "the man I followed was a champion of goodness (tm), not the empty thing that stands before me!" I could just imagine my character guffawing at that before eating her soul.

Ah, meh-ish oc aside it was a good game overall, I wonder if we'll ever get NWN 3 someday...
Informed Wisdom stat = 24
Actual Wisdom stat = 3

Sad part is, there are people who actually think she made sense and that her post-modernist whines had any bearing at all in a magic heavy setting like the Forgotten Realms where gods run around blowing each other up and avatars walk the lands.
Yeah,the atheism in the expansion was annoying. You can fire sparks from your hand and bring down the divine flame of your god,but nah atheism. Their believe really didn't fit with the world.
Could be a lot worse. You could be playing a cleric who implode things using the power of your god. And you still can't convince the fucktards that, you know, gods exist in the Realms...
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
18,001
Pathfinder: Wrath
Except, you know, Gann knows the gods exist, it's not atheism. He just chooses not to worship any one of them. There is also nothing post-modern about Kaelyn, she's that only if you don't know what postmodernism is.
 
Joined
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Love how the topic derailed to motb because nwn2 is so bad that actually people just suddenly stop speaking about if hoping to forget it for good. BUT I M HERE TO REMEMBER DA GAME

DAS GAME

DAS KINGO OV SCIADOVS
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
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He just chooses not to worship any one of them.
Which is really what gets you into that wall, right?
It is made abundantly clear in the game that the wall is evil. It is also made abundantly clear that despite being evil it maintains status quo and the gods are jackasses who want to maintain it and use the wall despite some of them not liking it.
The game has Kaelyn as its main mouthpiece. That invalidates the game as the viewpoint is biased. It is also non-canon.

In canon, the Wall itself is neutral. It is a consequence, not a cause. It is no more Evil than a light socket that you chose to lick is. The Wall was abused by two of the gods whose domain it belonged to. That does not make it Evil either.

In a universe where the gods need worship or else they die, there exists (to a postmodernist) a draconian measure to ensure that they get their due. Those that do not worship basically robs the gods of their due and the Wall is their punishment, just as jail would be yours if you decide not to pay the tax office. In a universe where gods manifestly do exist, where there is a godly manifestation of just about any ideal you wish to hold dear, there is no excuse not to worshp any god, other than a spiteful desire to spit in the eye of the divine. Do the crime, do the time. Cry me a river.
 

The Great ThunThun*

How DARE you!?
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Pathfinder: Wrath
It would make sense if the wall were a feature of the universe in FR. It is not. It was created by an evil god to literally torment faithless.
 

Cael

Arcane
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Messages
20,522
It would make sense if the wall were a feature of the universe in FR. It is not. It was created by an evil god to literally torment faithless.
According to a biased source which is not canon. Even the game, for all its biasness, concedes that destroying the Wall destroys part of the covenant between mortals and gods, implying that the Wall served a purpose in the cosmology. That is akin to Hollywood admitting to, you know, maybe Trump might not be the baby eating, child raping, mass murdering psychopath they constantly portray him to be.

The Wall played a prominent role in the very canon Prince of Lies, and not once was its origins mentioned. How it was abused, however, was.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
In a universe where the gods need worship or else they die, there exists (to a postmodernist) a draconian measure to ensure that they get their due. Those that do not worship basically robs the gods of their due and the Wall is their punishment, just as jail would be yours if you decide not to pay the tax office. In a universe where gods manifestly do exist, where there is a godly manifestation of just about any ideal you wish to hold dear, there is no excuse not to worshp any god, other than a spiteful desire to spit in the eye of the divine. Do the crime, do the time. Cry me a river.

Ehm, I always that that not believing in the existence of gods is pretty stupid in FR.
But I don't see how being forced to worship them is not "evil"? How is it their "due"? Isn't the idea behind most FR gods that you get something in return for worshipping? It's not like "woah, this god gave me life, I owe him now". You get something after the worship, not before. In that case, how do you owe the gods anything?

I don't see what's the crime here, except if you go by "might makes right".
But I guess just like a "postmodernist" will see this as basically enslavement, a christfag will see it as fair because gods have to be worshiped by default.

Even though the gods in FR are hardly the "divine", but just really powerful entities. So... well.. I don't know what you mean here.
 

Cael

Arcane
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Messages
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In a universe where the gods need worship or else they die, there exists (to a postmodernist) a draconian measure to ensure that they get their due. Those that do not worship basically robs the gods of their due and the Wall is their punishment, just as jail would be yours if you decide not to pay the tax office. In a universe where gods manifestly do exist, where there is a godly manifestation of just about any ideal you wish to hold dear, there is no excuse not to worshp any god, other than a spiteful desire to spit in the eye of the divine. Do the crime, do the time. Cry me a river.

Ehm, I always that that not believing in the existence of gods is pretty stupid in FR.
But I don't see how being forced to worship them is not "evil"? How is it their "due"? Isn't the idea behind most FR gods that you get something in return for worshipping? It's not like "woah, this god gave me life, I owe him now". You get something after the worship, not before. In that case, how do you owe the gods anything?

I don't see what's the crime here, except if you go by "might makes right".
But I guess just like a "postmodernist" will see this as basically enslavement, a christfag will see it as fair because gods have to be worshiped by default.

Even though the gods in FR are hardly the "divine", but just really powerful entities. So... well.. I don't know what you mean here.
It is not so much forced to worship. That is a bad characterisation. There is actually no actual worship involved as far as FR is concerned. It is not like the Silver Flame in Eberron where they go through all sorts of ritualistic kowtowing and bowing. The simple idea is "believe and follow". FR gods are more towards actually follow the precepts of a god than worshipping one.

Let me give you an example:
In Prince of Lies, the hero, Gwydion, had a vision of what he thought was Torm and in a fit of "Torm" inspired bravery, he got himself killed. In the afterlife, Torm argued with Cyric over Gwydion, being that it was Cyric who disguised himself as Torm in order to get Gwydion killed for his own petty amusement. However, Gwydion could not pass the simple test that Torm gave him in order to prove himself as a follower of Torm. It did not matter that he died inspired by "Torm", or that he believed Torm exist or anything like that. It is that you have to have followed Torm's precepts (honour, duty, loyalty, etc.) in order to be claimed as his. A simple guardsman who discharged his cuty loyally and faithfully will find a place by Torm's side in the afterlife, even if he had not stepped foot in Torm's temple in his life.

That book actually explored the whole idea of the Wall and what belief and faith means in the Realms, and actually paints a very different picture than what MotB tried to portray. It is very much worth a read to see what the canon portrayal of the Wall is, rather than rely on the asspull preaching that is MotB.
 

FeelTheRads

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Messages
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Let me give you an example:
In Prince of Lies, the hero, Gwydion, had a vision of what he thought was Torm and in a fit of "Torm" inspired bravery, he got himself killed. In the afterlife, Torm argued with Cyric over Gwydion, being that it was Cyric who disguised himself as Torm in order to get Gwydion killed for his own petty amusement. However, Gwydion could not pass the simple test that Torm gave him in order to prove himself as a follower of Torm. It did not matter that he died inspired by "Torm", or that he believed Torm exist or anything like that. It is that you have to have followed Torm's precepts (honour, duty, loyalty, etc.) in order to be claimed as his. A simple guardsman who discharged his cuty loyally and faithfully will find a place by Torm's side in the afterlife, even if he had not stepped foot in Torm's temple in his life.

OK, that makes more sense. And btw, with or without that I also agree that it's retarded to not worship any gods if you are aware of the consequences for not doing so.

However, it does not really make it any less forced. It is still forced on you and it can easily be reduced to "you have to worship a god because it's a god". If you don't think the gods deserve the worship or whatever... the living your life according to their precepts, then you're screwed. Either you do it out of fear or you accept the consequences. And that's actually a harder proposition than in, say, the Christian god which supposedly created everything including yourself. Because the gods in FR are mostly just powerful entities which might hold power over certain domains, but are in fact not the ultimate word on their domain seeing how they can be killed and replaced by other more powerful entities. So, as I see it, while to the Christian god you'd owe everything, the FR gods are just powerful entities forcing their power on you.
 

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
There is actually no actual worship involved as far as FR is concerned. It is not like the Silver Flame in Eberron
Ok, help me here, Eberron is a separate setting compared to Forgotten Realms? I don't remember why, but I though one was a part of the other.
 

laclongquan

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NWN2 has a great theme buried under a crap encounter design.

The core of NWN2 is that sacrifice made without consideration of the cost involved makes said sacrifice worthless and dangerous. The guardian aka King of Shadows is a *good* man. But his absolute connection to his kingdom makes him unable to take rational, meaningful decisionz. His destiny binds him to darkness and corrupts him. In the same vein, the PC is also bound to a destiny by being physically a part of a mythical weapon. MoTB is the perfect conclusion to that theme because in the good ending you are finally separated from the shard in your chest thus breaking your connection with manifest destiny and setting you free.

Or look at the other way. The guardian work as intended. And then shit happen ala Karsus displace Mystra and make Magic unstable for a while, ala Multiverse Crisis. And the guardian turn to the Shadow Weave in order to have power to keep functioning. The side effect was terrifying and destructive to the tune of Illefarn empire disappeared.

To keep the core really short: "Shit happened. Deal with it!"
 

Cael

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However, it does not really make it any less forced. It is still forced on you and it can easily be reduced to "you have to worship a god because it's a god". If you don't think the gods deserve the worship or whatever... the living your life according to their precepts, then you're screwed. Either you do it out of fear or you accept the consequences. And that's actually a harder proposition than in, say, the Christian god which supposedly created everything including yourself. Because the gods in FR are mostly just powerful entities which might hold power over certain domains, but are in fact not the ultimate word on their domain seeing how they can be killed and replaced by other more powerful entities. So, as I see it, while to the Christian god you'd owe everything, the FR gods are just powerful entities forcing their power on you.
Not particularly, given the setting.

Let's give a few examples:
You are a farmer. You know that Chauntea, goddess of agriculture, is responsible for the wellbeing of your crops. You also know for a fact she exists. Would you, then, not give thanks or praise or at least a nod in passing towards Chauntea? Even if you don't, the very act of being a farmer, of taking care of crops, of growing crops, of harvest them, puts you in her domain.

You are a wizard. You know that Mystra is the goddess of magic. You know that she is the manifestation of the Weave from which you draw your power. You use her laws every time you cast a spell. Would you not be at least respectful of her and her tenets? Well, unless you are more inclined towards the other gods of magic (Velsharoon, Azuth, etc.).

You are a warrior. You yearn for combat, the chaos of a good fight, the striving, the competition, the show of prowess. You disdain magic and subterfuge. Heck, you love to just charge into battle, screaming your warcry. You are basically following Tempus, god of battle. You really don't need to do anything else. In fact, barbarians in FR are rarely depicted as any more pious than screaming Tempus' name as they charge into battle. You are already in by the very dint of who/what you are.

The thing is, we are not talking about real life where the existence of God or gods can be argued as a question mark. We are talking about real forces here who has been seen as avatars, who grant spells, who are very active in the workings of the world. It is not so much as they forcing you to be what you are. It is you being who you are and aligning with the one (of dozens, I might add) that most embody your philosophy. In fact, I would argue that in order to be a Faithless, you have to actively work towards it, rather than the other way around.
 

Cael

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And the guardian turn to the Shadow Weave in order to have power to keep functioning. The side effect was terrifying and destructive to the tune of Illefarn empire disappeared.
Actually, it was worse than that.

They didn't know what the side effects were. The Illefarns just attacked and the Guardian retaliated, and acted as programmed. It defended itself as a function of its role as Guardian of Illefarn. In order to protect something, a guardian must first survive the conflict. It therefore classified all those who attacked it as the enemy. Cue complete devastation of Illefarn. The Guardian was basically a computer programme by that stage.
 

Cael

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There is actually no actual worship involved as far as FR is concerned. It is not like the Silver Flame in Eberron
Ok, help me here, Eberron is a separate setting compared to Forgotten Realms? I don't remember why, but I though one was a part of the other.
It is a completely different setting, and one with a few unique twists on the whole DnD traditions.

For one thing, many things are ambiguous. There is no real proof that the gods even exist, and of the entities that we can see (e.g., the Silver Flame) there is no true explanation of what they actually are. There are also no alignment restrictions to clerics. You can worship the Silver Flame, a LG entity, and be a complete conniving, Evil bastard and still get spells and abilities. In fact, the upper echelons of the Church of the Silver Flame has a significant number of self-serving assholes that are actually canonicaly Evil aligned. Just about every part of the world has mysteries in it that is purposefully vaguely explained. Why the Mourning happened, the ruins of Xendrick, the ancient wars that left a large part of the Eldeen Reaches with scars, the Draconic Prophecy, etc. It is all left to the DM to fill if he wants to.

Also, lots of magitek. As in the whole setting is about magitek. We have magic powered aircraft, trains, ships, hovercars, you name it. We have genetically (magic!) modified animals. They basically took a high magic world and dialed the magic up to 11.
 

Chippy

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Thing is that if Beamdog aquired time travel, went back and stole the main campaign story and prevented NWN2 from being created - then came back and created a IE expansion with the NWN2 campaign and its story...most RPG fans would probably consider it to be 'alright'. I expect the Codex reviewers would.

There's a statement begging to be shit rated. But you all know deep down that it's true. And no I'm not a Beamdog fan.
 

Neanderthal

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I forgot how damn good the siege is, felt like Druss on Eldibar fighting back the undead and destroying the towers. Damn well implemented how they did that, seeing the towers rolling across the fields and then crashing into the wall, really good use o engine.

Kind of goes downhill a bit after that.
 
Self-Ejected

aweigh

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6126938562_4eed6b1dd0_b.jpg


RIBSMASHER SMASH!!!!!
 

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