NWN2 OC was not bad as people make it out

[Lyric Suite]

Amazing writing.

Neeshka is your typical easily distracted 18 year old teen. If you were expecting deep philosophical dialogue from her, you have got to be kidding. And doubly so if you expected the same from Qara, Khelgar, the gnome or Bishop.

That is why someone like Sand and Shandra stood out. They were just about the only adults in the whole menagerie.

It's more that NWN2's OC was intentionally written to be babby's first D&D adventure. Every character, every line of dialogue, everything is very generic but in a conscious kinda way. I'm convinced they designed OC to be an introductory module for people who never played D&D games, basically something akin to an introduction to a game that was build around the engine and custom content first and foremost, at least in principle. We know how that turned out of course.

 

[FeelTheRads]

And PoE doesn't have well written campaign or characters,

NWN2 certainly doesn't.

it doesn't have the trial part,

Actually, it does! And like NWN2, all outcomes lead to the same result (though Pillars at least changes an ending slide).

Whenever someone mentions the trial as a good thing you know they are dumb as fuck.

Hurr gather all this shit for the trial. Oh wait, no matter what it still ends in a fight cuz hurrr.

 

[Cael]

Amazing writing.

Neeshka is your typical easily distracted 18 year old teen. If you were expecting deep philosophical dialogue from her, you have got to be kidding. And doubly so if you expected the same from Qara, Khelgar, the gnome or Bishop.

That is why someone like Sand and Shandra stood out. They were just about the only adults in the whole menagerie.

It's more that NWN2's OC was intentionally written to be babby's first D&D adventure. Every character, every line of dialogue, everything is very generic but in a conscious kinda way. I'm convinced they designed OC to be an introductory module for people who never played D&D games, basically something akin to an introduction to a game that was build around the engine and custom content first and foremost, at least in principle. We know how that turned out of course.

Even if it is, they could have written better characters. The main problem was that most of the characters are either caricatures or mental infants. This has nothing to do with whether the game is supposed to be an introductory course or not.

Introductory modules are simple to the uninitiated: Go to X. Slay Y. Easy to spot traps. Obvious pitfalls. No difficult puzzles or knowledge of abilities or hard thinking required. Move along.

The characters in them need not be babies.

 

[Cael]

And PoE doesn't have well written campaign or characters,

NWN2 certainly doesn't.

it doesn't have the trial part,

Actually, it does! And like NWN2, all outcomes lead to the same result (though Pillars at least changes an ending slide).

Whenever someone mentions the trial as a good thing you know they are dumb as fuck.

Hurr gather all this shit for the trial. Oh wait, no matter what it still ends in a fight cuz hurrr.

The rite of combat is something that did exist, and is a staple trope of fantasy. That it exists is not surprising or out of character of the whole thing. In fact, in the game, no one actually expected that it would be invoked. The rite still existed, but it had not been invoked for so long that no one expected it to be invoked or even known about (other than the damned rules lawyers). That Torio or Sand invoked it showed their desperation.

You believe it is stupid because it will always end in a fight, but that is because you already know all the possible outcomes. That is metagaming. The characters did not know or expect such a thing, which is why they went through with the evidence gathering and the like. It would have turned out exactly the same in real life in any culture that still has a rite of combat.

 

[Cael]

only the ginormous act of foresight on the devs part not making neeshka romanceable has prevented millions of opinionated tsundere codexers from romancing the shit out of her

It wasn't foresight. It was lack of time. Neeshka was planned to be romancable, and bits of it is still left in the game like her obvious jealous bitchiness towards Elanee in the beginning. The devs ran out of time, and so it was scrapped.

 

[Lacrymas]

Whenever someone mentions the trial as a good thing you know they are dumb as fuck.

Hurr gather all this shit for the trial. Oh wait, no matter what it still ends in a fight cuz hurrr.

I hypothesize that the trial of combat was made for the benefit of the player. In the sense if you didn't gather enough evidence, or didn't have a character who can orate, it'd have been either a game over or they'd have to make an entire section in Luskan for breaking you out. And then they did it for Torio so players wouldn't go "but wait a minute, why doesn't Torio invoke the rite of combat?" You still get a fancy title with +diplomacy if you manage to convince the court, so it's not like you don't get anything.

 

[Cael]

Whenever someone mentions the trial as a good thing you know they are dumb as fuck.

Hurr gather all this shit for the trial. Oh wait, no matter what it still ends in a fight cuz hurrr.

I hypothesize that the trial of combat was made for the benefit of the player. In the sense if you didn't gather enough evidence, or didn't have a character who can orate, it'd have been either a game over or they'd have to make an entire section in Luskan for breaking you out. And then they did it for Torio so players wouldn't go "but wait a minute, why doesn't Torio invoke the rite of combat?" You still get a fancy title with +diplomacy if you manage to convince the court, so it's not like you don't get anything.

I don't know about that. The Neverwinter branch of the Church of Tyr has been shown to be about as smart as the average stunned doorknob in NWN1. The way the boneheads kept going on and on about their version of rigid "justice" in Act 1 merely reinforces the notion that they are fucking idiots. A trial by combat is right up their alley.

 

[FeelTheRads]

The problem was not the rite of combat itself. It's that it essentially renders the whole thing pointless.

And I meant people who give this as some awesome example of reactivity or Command&Conquer or whatever other bullshit when there's nothing like that.

You know, the usual "i could click on different options therefore there are choices".

 

[Agame]

Informative thread, I thank god I never had the misfortune to play this game.

 

[Cael]

The problem was not the rite of combat itself. It's that it essentially renders the whole thing pointless.

And I meant people who give this as some awesome example of reactivity or Command&Conquer or whatever other bullshit when there's nothing like that.

You know, the usual "i could click on different options therefore there are choices".

As Lacrymas said, it was probably done for the benefit of the player. I mean, seriously, would you expect a raging half-orc barbarian to be able to finesse his way through the trial with or without Sand?

To be fair, most of the things that people rave about in the NWN2 OC doesn't affect the endings too much. It is how well they were done that made people take notice. For example, unless you completely fuck it up and neglected everything, there was no way you will lose in the castle battle either. Even then, I am not sure you can lose that battle and have a non-standard game over. The trial is another of this. Either way, you will survive and become Knight Captain or you are dead of Lorne overdose and game over.

An example that you might not be aware of: You can side with the Shadow Thieves and get into Blacklake that way. You will get to kill Moire and become the head Shadow Thief's righthand man. And you get the chance to kill him and to hell with the Thieves afterwards in Act3. I believe the ending slides still say the Thieves took over the docks as if their entire hierarchical structure hadn't been wiped out by you.

 

[fantadomat]

still say the Thieves took over the docks as if their entire hierarchical structure hadn't been wiped out by you.

That is not how crime works,you don't just kill the head rogue and everyone becomes a law abiding citizen. When the boss dies another one comes out.

 

[laclongquan]

The problem was not the rite of combat itself. It's that it essentially renders the whole thing pointless.

For the casual players, sure.

For the rpg elites, do you think there's a clear difference in a multiple-stat, multiple-previous-quest-coutcome, trial AND a generic whatever trial?

 

[Cael]

still say the Thieves took over the docks as if their entire hierarchical structure hadn't been wiped out by you.

That is not how crime works,you don't just kill the head rogue and everyone becomes a law abiding citizen. When the boss dies another one comes out.

Except they are all busy being dead. I wiped out everyone at Moire's headquarters and then everyone in that black guy's headquarters. The only ones left would be the basic footpad in the back alleys. The Watch should have been able to wiped them out easy, especially when Khelgar becomes a high ranking watchmen (that is the canon ending for him, which you can see in Storms Over Zehir).

 

[Roguey]

It wasn't foresight. It was lack of time. Neeshka was planned to be romancable, and bits of it is still left in the game like her obvious jealous bitchiness towards Elanee in the beginning. The devs ran out of time, and so it was scrapped.

It's just standard Avellone teasing.

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/4...pgs-in-general/?do=findComment&comment=725311

I don't hate love in game stories; I just hate reducing love to shallow, masturbatory fantasy indulgence. Maybe that's all love is to some people, but I think that's a pretty narrow view. Ego-stroking is very popular in CRPGs, which is one reason I don't feel comfortable doing CRPG writing anymore.


I appreciate that people wanted more romance options in NWN2, but sometimes I think that people want there to be romance "victory" conditions for all companions. I think that can diminish some characters. For instance, if Shandra and Qara had their own romance plots, I think some people would still want Neeshka to be "romance-able", regardless of how Neeshka's author felt about the character's place in the story.


That bugs me. I don't like the idea that you can "win" everything or get everyone on your side. I'm also not fond of the idea that romance always has to resolve with a "fade out" to implied coitus, but that's another issue.


I'll re-state what I wrote before: I want romance to receive either less or more attention in games. Anything worth doing is worth doing well, especially when it's something with so much emotional potential. But I certainly don't want to go the route of harem anime, which is total fantasy indulgence and gross pandering.

 

[Neanderthal]

Anything worth doing is worth doing well, especially when it's something with so much emotional potential. But I certainly don't want to go the route of harem anime, which is total fantasy indulgence and gross pandering.

Deadfire.

 

[Lacrymas]

I agree with Sawyer, hentai harem style romance options are degrading.

 

[Cael]

I agree with Sawyer, hentai harem style romance options are degrading.

*looks at my party of one male and 5 females in IWD2* You betas have no idea what you are missing...

Spoiler

 

[Nano]

*looks at my party of one male and 5 other males* You have no idea what you're missing.

 

[Cael]

*looks at my party of one male and 5 other males* You have no idea what you're missing.

I think I know what I am missing: brown stains in pants seats.

And you know what? I am OK with that :D

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Been about a decade since I played motb, such a massive step up over the OC. Even tiny details like expecting there to be rewards for exploring(OC had lots of empty areas with... Nothing.) Motb has a bunch of stuff stashed around for you to find.
Voice acting in OC sounds like a bunch of amateurs using tin cans sans a few(Daeghun is easily the worst offender considering he's an important character and one of the first you interact with) compared to motb. Etc.,

 

[Roguey]

Deadfire.

There was a writer rebellion, so he gave up.

 

[cutterjohn]

One last thing about NWN1OC, it was more or less IIRC a last minute addition. I believe that the 'game' was meant to ship purely as a toolset originally... still NWN1OC is utter crap, and man those dialog checks... that really killed it for me... although by the time I bothered to test it, let's just say that I already had the idea what the end result was going to be, no difference in outcome, but IDENTICAL dialog responses that was just awful...

...and yes MotB >> NWN2OC >> NWN1OC, not sure where I'd put the two NWN1 expansions as I never really got around to playing them for any length of time since the NWN1OC soured me on it for a long while, and I tried 'modules' by fans which were MUCH better and MADE USE of dialog checks...

 

[Infinitron]

NWN 2 OC is certainly bad, but I've always said it deserves some credit for its ambitious attempt at an "everything but the kitchen sink" fantasy plot.

One thing I've noticed when discussing NWN2 OC's story over the years is that people who played it don't always seem to have entirely grasped quite how ambitious it was, other than a few standout elements like the trial or Crossroad Keep. And I think a big reason for that is how linear it was. As a player, it's harder for you to recognize the breadth of a story when you're not the one making the decisions on where to go and what to do. All you're doing is killing the group of trash mobs currently in front of you.

 

[Neanderthal]

NWN 2 OC is certainly bad, but I've always said it deserves some credit for its ambitious attempt at an "everything but the kitchen sink" fantasy plot.

One thing I've noticed when discussing NWN2 OC's story over the years is that people who played it don't always seem to have entirely grasped quite how ambitious it was, other than a few standout elements like the trial or Crossroad Keep. And I think a big reason for that is how linear it was. As a player, it's harder for you to recognize the breadth of a story when you're not the one making the decisions on where to go and what to do. All you're doing is killing the group of trash mobs currently in front of you.

Agreed, that was the games downfall for me, tried too hard to be epic. MotB scaled back and was far more effective in this regard.

 

[Lagole Gon]

I was really angry after getting this dialogue.
Because I wasn't trying to nerf the traitors. Apparently I just had shit equipment.