Oblivion question for MSFD

[Xi]

I just wish that the Perks only applied to Major skills. There needs to be more emphasis on why you are choosing certain skills. The TES system is good, but it doesn't come without certain flaws, which could be limited in design. Ahh well.

 

[Abernathy]

it is not because they put "soil erosion" and "patrick stewart voice" that they dumb down the game....

No, it's not, I agree - but the reason these things stand out so much is that they are all that's left to hype after all the interesting gameplay is gone!

Do you really think Patrick Stewart or RAI would be touted as being so important if there was some really groundbreaking gameplay element they could hype instead? Which would you choose?

Minigames?

 

[dongle]

for me I will have a very good role-play experience and a very good explorating experience also (that's why they made a quite huge worl with good graphics).

. . . with a three-inch compass on your screen pointing out all the good stuff, a fast-travel map which points out exactly where you need to go for your current quest, someone to read all the text to you, all because Xboxers found it "too hard" to figure out a dead-simple "find this guy" quest. That's called dumbing it down.

fast travel was in Daggerfall and it doesn't disturb anybody. and you are not oblige to use it.

Fast travel is fine. It's highlighting your quest objectives on the map that I'm speaking of. Get quest, click on map, done. Immersive!

My point was that Bethesda has constantly hyped the three features I mentioned, and stated the reason they're in is majority of their customers were too dumb to find Caius. They found it "too hard" or "didn't like reading". I however found it simple as pie. I rather liked a bit of challenge in exploring to find stuff. So; they are specifically stating, time and again, they are designing for a player dumber than I.

Thus dumbing the game down, which you state is not the case. . . .

Maybe I can play and all the while ignore all the dumbed-down hand-holding features, but what really will be left? It doesn't change the fact that it's been dumbed-down, does it?

 

[Data4]

do you speak french?
if you speak french, you will know than "shit" won't be at all a good translation for "excrément" .
"excrément" in French =(I guess) "excrement" in English which is the noble version of "shit". That's not as rude as "fuck".

Oui, je peux parler un petit français, mais c'est difficile quand je peux parle aussi un petit Japonais, Suédois, et Español. Je regret, mais Les Français sucent ainsi... là vous allez.

And I said your name "essentially means shit", which is similar to saying "If your name means excreted solid or semi-solid digestive waste matter, it essentially means 'shit'.".

-D4

 

[kingcomrade]

BLAST FROM THE PAST TIME:

edit- this picture made me remember how much I miss my French class...
Oh non! C'est l'Omnibus! Le bus qui peut faire tous les choses!

My French teacher hated <s>me</s> all of us.

 

[galsiah]

...It's really only a problem for a certain type of gamer that feels the need to play the system, which for me is a non-RPGish way to play a RPG. But to each his own.

In my opinion, doing the best for my character is not "playing the system", but is rather role-playing according to the way the game world works.

Roleplaying in the Morrowind world is not doing what my character would do in a generic fantasy setting.
Roleplaying in the Morrowind world is acting as my character would in that world.

If, for instance, my character finds it more effective for his development to train / use certain skill combinations (since his attributes then rise faster), then that is what he would do. In the Morrowind world, skill training focused on two or three attributes is more effective. Characters would learn this over time, and the more pragmatic ones would take advantage of it.
Similarly, raising only major / minor skills doesn't lead to as much attribute gain as training misc skills alongside them. Character's would learn this, and adapt to it.

Not adapting to these facts means that you are not roleplaying according to Morrowind's world - you are roleplaying according to generic rules, which may or may not apply to the world you're in. That doesn't make much sense to me (though it might well be more fun).

To me, saying you shouldn't adapt to the system is as silly as saying you shouldn't pick up a really powerful sword in the first room. I could say that according to generic fantasy roleplaying conventions, the uber sword should not be in the first room. Therefore picking up the sword is "playing the system", since in most roleplaying settings you wouldn't get it.

I view the mechanics for character progression in the same light - these rules form the reality of the game world. Ignoring them for a better experience makes no more sense than ignoring an uber sword in the first room for a better experience. Will you enjoy the game more if you ignore any odd rules, and leave the uber sword? Sure - I completely agree. However, putting the uber sword in the first room is bad design. Similarly, constructing the rules of the game world in such a way that the player must ignore them to enjoy playing is bad design. [it's preferable that the player can ignore them, of course.]

Roleplaying in Morrowind means doing as your character would in that world. Your character would pick up the powerful sword, and your character (if pragmatic and not stupid) would adapt training and use of skills so that he made the most progress.

If you don't play this way you'll have more fun, but you won't be roleplaying according to Morrowind's world.

I agree that the player shouldn't ideally be considering his stats most of the time, any more than he should be considering the impact of his actions on game balance. To avoid this for all players is not too hard though. The system just needs to be well designed. You can have fun playing Morrowind with the current system by ignoring it. That doesn't make it a good, or even passable system - it means that you don't need a good progression system to enjoy the game. A well designed system would change things little for you - since you can just as well ignore that -, but would help enormously for those who couldn't ignore the Morrowind system. There's no real downside.

I can sum up the only really necessary change to the current system in one sentence:
Remove order dependence from skill and attribute gain.

It's hardly a complicated idea, but it does mean redoing the current system. The current system sucks. Your view basically amounts to "Why does it matter that it sucks? You can ignore it.". That is fine for you, but I can't ignore it - not without a distracting amount of conscious effort. Therefore it does matter that it sucks. I'd like to see a system that doesn't. It seems TES V might be the earliest oppotunity.

Until then, I'll just have to mod it. Again.

 

[Stella Brando]

The Morrowind devs and fanboys see the games skill-progression system as an essential part of the games "greatness." The problem to me is that it puts to much emphasis on improving your character, like in NWN and Diablo. RPGs where you finish the game with basically the same character as you enter tend to work better.

This is completely different from the current TES, but it might be cooler if the characters attribute scores were created at the start of the game, and then just stayed that way. That way you could have the "freedom" of designing any particular character you want, right from the get go, whether DESTRUCTOR THE BARBARIAN or SUPER STEALTH DEATH NINJA. The TES fanboys would love that shit, and it might encourage them to design different characters and roleplay a bit more too, assuming the game's missions will even allow it. Get rid of this Diablo "I'm becoming a god!" crap, please.

 

[Thrawn05]

My French teacher hated <s>me</s> all of us.

Ha! My math teacher hated all of us. We used to push all our books of the desk at a certain time. Then she swing around and "grrr" at us, so we "grrr" back at her. So we called her "The Bear".

Sometimes I miss school.

The Morrowind devs and fanboys see the games skill-progression system as an essential part of the games "greatness." The problem to me is that it puts to much emphasis on improving your character, like in NWN and Diablo. RPGs where you finish the game with basically the same character as you enter tend to work better.

True. I played a little of NWN and I found that you spent more time trying to level up your character then anything else. I don't think there is any real solutions to this.

 

[galsiah]

Stat progression happening doesn't require it to be emphasized. The reason it gets emphasized in Morrowind is that you need to think about it, or your character will suffer. Spending time thinking about stats is rewarded. Ignoring them and playing naturally is penalised. Even though getting the best stats isn't necessary to do well, many player's (myself included) find it very hard to ignore the fact that training certain skills will get them better stats. If I try to play naturally, I am constantly aware of the sub-optimal decisions I am making.

Some decisions I can roleplay around, but if I'm faced with a situation where e.g. I can train then sleep - getting good attribute modifiers -, or sleep then train getting bad attribute modifiers, what should I do? I might equally well do either from a roleplaying point of view. My decision is then between "playing the system" through a perfectly reasonable course of actions, or purposefully choosing a sub-optimal (but equally reasonable) action in order to avoid playing the system. I find this really annoying, and it totally breaks my immersion - whatever I decide to do.

Some people say the above can be avoided by not using trainers - but how does that square with roleplaying? If my character is adventuring in a dangerous world and has the money and time to improve his skills, thus improving his chance of survival, then he's going to do it. Avoiding trainers is not roleplaying unless you're playing some sort of oddball character.

Anyway, I had a point I think: the reason that Morrowind players see that there is emphasis on character development is that Morrowind rewards "playing the system", and punishes natural play. Thinking about the system much of the time is encouraged by the game world - do it and your character will be better off (though you might have less fun).

My mod for Morrowind changes the character progression system quite dramatically, and is a lot more complicated than the original. Does this mean that people think about character progression and stats when they use it? No. Why not? Because it rewards actions fairly and seamlessly - there is no incentive to think about which skill is "best" to train next. The only thinking that needs to be done is on an intuitive level - if want to improve strength, I should use physical skills... All skill gain and attribute gain effects are order independent.

My system is both much more complex than the standard, and allows more progression (in theory) and much more variety than the standard. This doesn't mean that it puts more emphasis on character building though. The emphasis of Morrowind on character progression is due to the countless annoying and counter-intuitive choices the player makes in order to improve his character. All that is needed for the emphasis to be taken off the system and put back on to the game world is for the system to make sense.

What is needed is not a system simple enough for players to understand, but rather one that is complex enough for players not to need to understand. Whether it involves increasing attributes or stationary attributes doesn't matter much. What does matter is that any system for increasing attributes makes sense on an intuitive level. Once that is true, everyone can ignore it and get on with playing. Hopefully the game world will present more interesting and important choices than: "Do I put these 2 points into strength or intelligence?"

 

[kingcomrade]

My French teacher hated <s>me</s> all of us.

Ha! My math teacher hated all of us. We used to push all our books of the desk at a certain time. Then she swing around and "grrr" at us, so we "grrr" back at her. So we called her "The Bear".

What? We weren't assholes. We would just pronounce things in an obviously anglophone manner. Our favorite word was "l'elevator". Or translating directly: "Welcome to the France."

 

[Stella Brando]

True. I played a little of NWN and I found that you spent more time trying to level up your character then anything else. I don't think there is any real solutions to this.

Just ban the whole fucking thing. Purge it, wipe it out, drive it into the sea. At the start of the game you get a certain amount of points to distribute amongst your strength, intelligence, luck, etc. Each is rated out of 10, not 100, that's pointless - and what is the difference between 71 and 74 strength anyway? You keep the same scores you always had - its more realistic that way, in a world without steroids you dont double your strength in a few months. It also makes your character build more important, you have to be aware of what specific sort of chap you're aiming for. And if you can be killed by a goblin on your first day adventuring, you can be killed by one 6 months later. Don't like it, tough shit.

The game should allow you to play the quests with any particular character you make - you can find a way to stop the trolls attacking the village whether your Garret, Conan, Gandalf, that guy from Catch Me If You Can, Siddhartha Gautamma, or something else entirely. That is roleplaying, not achieving level 41 and getting the BitchSlicer + 6.

 

[kingcomrade]

I want to refer you all, again, to my post in the Leveled Loot and Monsters thread.

nd if you can be killed by a goblin on your first day adventuring, you can be killed by one 6 months later. Don't like it, tough shit.

The key to character progression in that would be abilities and equipment rather than stats and HP++, is the short version of the post. As in, you get a piece of equipment, or an ability, which can exploit some weakness of goblins. I'm talking about platformer/adventure mechanics, really. The example I gave in that thread was invisibility in Psychonauts when dealing with those fire cougars and stealing the watch and whatnot.

 

[Thrawn05]

My French teacher hated <s>me</s> all of us.

Ha! My math teacher hated all of us. We used to push all our books of the desk at a certain time. Then she swing around and "grrr" at us, so we "grrr" back at her. So we called her "The Bear".

What? We weren't assholes. We would just pronounce things in an obviously anglophone manner. Our favorite word was "l'elevator". Or translating directly: "Welcome to the France."

Neither were we, we just tried to fight the system, since the system liked to fail those that didn't suck the principle’s dick (seriously).

 

[Thrawn05]

True. I played a little of NWN and I found that you spent more time trying to level up your character then anything else. I don't think there is any real solutions to this.

Just ban the whole fucking thing. Purge it, wipe it out, drive it into the sea. At the start of the game you get a certain amount of points to distribute amongst your strength, intelligence, luck, etc. Each is rated out of 10, not 100, that's pointless - and what is the difference between 71 and 74 strength anyway? You keep the same scores you always had - its more realistic that way, in a world without steroids you dont double your strength in a few months. It also makes your character build more important, you have to be aware of what specific sort of chap you're aiming for. And if you can be killed by a goblin on your first day adventuring, you can be killed by one 6 months later. Don't like it, tough shit.

The game should allow you to play the quests with any particular character you make - you can find a way to stop the trolls attacking the village whether your Garret, Conan, Gandalf, that guy from Catch Me If You Can, Siddhartha Gautamma, or something else entirely. That is roleplaying, not achieving level 41 and getting the BitchSlicer + 6.

But that isn't a real solution to the problem. You would have to get rid of all combat since there would be no fun between killing a troll or goblin and killing some uber looking demon.

 

[kingcomrade]

Another good one is when someone mispronounced "toute" and the teacher just corrected him with a "toot". Ah, that made everyone giggle, and from then on we all pronounced "toute" in the most obnoxious manner.

Et TOOT la something-feminine...

 

[Stella Brando]

In High School I fell in love with my Chinese teacher. She was in her 20s, and very cute. She often wore a short black skirt and stockings, and although she was fairly quiet, she became very feisty when angered. That's heterosexuality, KC, something you'd know about if you didnt speak French.

But that isn't a real solution to the problem. You would have to get rid of all combat since there would be no fun between killing a troll or goblin and killing some uber looking demon.

All the best action games which survive on combat alone, or primarily, don't offer attribute increases. Don't take the BitchSlicer +6 thing too seriously, though, I definitely thing you should be able to acquire better equipment.

I'd like more of an adventure type fantasy game, going on a journey, exploring, meeting interesting characters. All I did in NWN was build up my levels, being promoted from Goblin-Killer to Hob-Goblin Killer to Goblin Captain-Killer, driven on by the promise of one day being a Goblin Chief-Killer.

 

[Excrément]

Fast travel is fine. It's highlighting your quest objectives on the map that I'm speaking of. Get quest, click on map, done. Immersive!

It highlights yur objective only if you decide it :
let me explain : you have for example 10 quests in your journal, if you choose to activate one quest, the compass will highlight stuff. But you have to manually activate them so without activating them you won't get signs from your compass.

and about the mini games you can skip them. I understand the mini games angers a lot of guys here because it has been done to put "more fun for console players" and it is quite "mainstream", but you can still skip them.

 

[kris]

The game should allow you to play the quests with any particular character you make - you can find a way to stop the trolls attacking the village whether your Garret, Conan, Gandalf, that guy from Catch Me If You Can, Siddhartha Gautamma, or something else entirely. That is roleplaying, not achieving level 41 and getting the BitchSlicer + 6.

Beautiful! No1 reason I am not to keen on JRPGs.

I am of the belief that critical injuries is a must in RPG combat, but I would prefer a minimum of combat in my RPG altogether.

 

[Xi]

Interestingly, PnP games do not offer quick advancement. Even though Oblivion is designed from the PnP aspect, it neglects this concept altogether.

Obviously, some people hate the power gaming concept, it does promote playing the game however. Whether that promoted gameplay is how the developers intended, or not, is another story, but I don't think I would describe it as a bad thing.

It's kind of like the Diablo 2 LOD item system. When theres absolutely no game left to play, you keep playing to see what items you'll find and how uber your character can get. It's no longer about roleplaying at this time, and given Diablo 2 it never was.

*shurg*

 

[Twinfalls]

What in the hell happened to the gaming trend screenshots? "Translation build" again, Bethesda?

 

[dongle]

What in the hell happened to the gaming trend screenshots? "Translation build" again, Bethesda?

Er, did I miss something? Link?

 

[Seboss]

Our favorite word was "l'elevator". Or translating directly: "Welcome to the France."

WTF ?

 

[Twinfalls]

From a couple of pages back:

for the naysayerrs and fanboys, new screenshots of Oblivion (at least for those who didn't see the magazine scans before) :
http://gamingtrend.com/screenshots/inde ... ameID=2677

oh shit, the ninja from Metal Gear Solid is in the game

how unique

 

[dongle]

Hrm, must be gone cuz I don't see anything there?

 

[Seboss]

Those links are dead as my grandmother.

Explanation