Official Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Interview Oblivion tit for tat at GameCloud

Discussion in 'RPG Codex News & Content Comments' started by Saint_Proverbius, Sep 26, 2005.

  1. MrSmileyFaceDude Bethesda Game Studios Developer

    MrSmileyFaceDude
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2004
    Messages:
    716
    That's exactly why we changed it for Oblivion.

    And no parrying, but you can block with a weapon if you don't have a shield equipped.
     
    ^ Top  
  2. triCritical Erudite

    triCritical
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2003
    Messages:
    1,329
    Location:
    Colorado Springs
    Well your less of an RPG fan. People that have grown up with RPG's typically played DnD 2nd addition at least my generation. Having to roll to hit, even though a lame person could probably hit, and then damage.

    So people wanting to play an RPG, were more likely to totally be in with the whole suspension of disbelief sort of like theater, in which people realize that the animations are only an abstract representation of whats actually going on. IMO it is not until the XBOX hybrid RPG that so called console RPG'ers have expected the animations to be weighted more heavily then a characters skills.

    Hell takes infinity engine games, Fallout, and the FP games party based RPG's. Combat is completely abstracted with no contact between character and enemy. The same is true in strategy and real time RPG's.

    The bastardization that Bioware came up with is a complete lack of control of the characters as in KotOR, which I only feed them a very vague command and they go on with there l33t animations. So instead of playing I am watching. Very boring.
     
    ^ Top  
  3. Sarvis Erudite

    Sarvis
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    Messages:
    5,050
    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    Umm... that's pretty much what parrying is.


    So... dual wield?
     
    ^ Top  
  4. Section8 Erudite

    Section8
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2002
    Messages:
    4,321
    Location:
    Wardenclyffe
    Well, not necessarily. If it involves small degree of player skill in swinging the weapon in its most appropriate fashion, then combat is more interesting, even if only slightly. It's even better if there's more to the combat system than purely damage. If each attack has ...

    * a varied chance to hit/penetrate
    * a different rate of attack/stamina usage
    * extended effects, such as knockdown/bleeding/disarming/etc

    ... then it's hard to determine which attack is "better than the rest". Of course, in the context of your argument (ie Morrowind) it's a perfectly reasonable point. Glad to hear steps are being taken to rectify it in Oblivion.
     
    ^ Top  
  5. Balor Arcane

    Balor
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    Messages:
    5,165
    Location:
    Russia
    No, it's NOT. (Well-earned title, I see).
    Parry involves motion!
    You sweep away the blow, not just get a blade in the path of the enemy's one.
    And, not sure about Gothic 2 (I've not played it), but I've yet to play an RPG that properly incorporated it.
    Btw, that will indeed add a lot of 'twitch', because you'll have to time your parries really well, unlike blocks with shields or weapons.
    However, I wonder if you can 'block' thrusts with weapons.
    Well, you can in M&B, but it's one of the weakest points of it - and it was brought up already, so I hope it will be fixed eventually.
    Also, you may want to read M&B forum about dualwielding, and see that it's not so cool&nifty as it sounds.
    Sword+Shield style gives you 'more bang for your buck'.
    Well, if you are some sort of ambidextrous superman, perhaps it can be viable. However, mostly it's issue of shields being too heavy and bulky to carry around, then an other one-handed weapon, for instance. (And, of course, it's not really a valid point in RPGs).
    And you can attack with shieds pretty good - some have spikes, and simply crushing rim of a bucker round shield into some's ribs is really nasty, as well as simply bashing it’s into the enemy to stun him.
    So, dual-wielding is 'pop'. Pretty much as Legalize shooting mumak with his flimsy bow :D.
    Yea, Japanese culture really often had uses for such style.
    However, remember, that they did not use shieds!
    If equally-skilled sword+shield western warrior and a katana + wakizashi samurai will meet on a field of combat, I know on whom I'll be my money :).
     
    ^ Top  
  6. Sarvis Erudite

    Sarvis
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    Messages:
    5,050
    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    Yeah no shit, that's why I said <b>pretty much</b> the same. The end result is that you stop the opponents attack with your weapon, instead of dodging or shieldblocking it (or getting hit obviously.) Also, good luck getting a blade in the path of the enemy's one without motion!

    Which is actually one of the reasons I think dual wielding is a good style for rangers. Carrying around a big, bulky slab of wood or metal just doesn't seem to go with the idea of running around in a forest.

    Mine would be on the western warrior, because he'd probably be wearing plate or chainmail while the Samurai would have leather padding and wooden armor. The katana would never cut through the knights armor...
     
    ^ Top  
  7. DarkSign Erudite

    DarkSign
    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,910
    Location:
    Shepardizing caselaw with the F5 button.
    Gather 'round kids. Watch more dumbass-ness in action!

    So after he's proven you wrong you backtrack and say you were really agreeing - "Yeah no shit, that's why I said pretty much the same."

    But at the end you want to have your cake and eat it too by saying "Also, good luck getting a blade in the path of the enemy's one without motion!" which is basically saying it really is parrying and that he was wrong.

    Its sad when you do this. Quit the Codex.
     
    ^ Top  
  8. Balor Arcane

    Balor
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    Messages:
    5,165
    Location:
    Russia
    *grumble-grumble-grumble*
    Try sparring with real weapons for a year, then return with apology :P.
    You do not STOP attack when you parry - just lead it away in a way that it does not hit you. Sometimes, blocking can be all but impossible - try blocking a twohander!
    I've tried, and got disarmed more often then not. Hurts too... and, like I said, thrusts cannot be blocked – only parried.
    Leading it away require much less effort, does much less damage to the blade, and is capable of throwing the opponent off-balance by utilizing his own intertia. Yet, it require perfect timing and much more skill.
    On the other hand, when you speak of it, blocking with a weapon is not really viable when you just hold it in the path of the blow. You have to have 'monster's writs' for this, like the head of our club said :).
    Blocking is more like moving the weapon in the direction of attack, so it's momentum will cancel out the momentum of the opponnent's blow... but you still have to time it right (if it’s much easier then parrying), not to mention block against low attacks will let high attacks thru and so on (M&B manages this perfectly, and it's only game I've played that does this).
    However, if that would be incorporated, people like VD will go completely apeshit about it being too twitchy for their liking :).
    Well, some later armor in Japan were rather good, but still nothing to be compared to the suit of full plate, I agree.
    Yet, if he'll wear about the same armor as the samurai, shield does offer tremendous advantage.
    Hmm, and what about carrying a heap of cutlery, a few twohanders, and a hundred liters of potions as loot? :D
    Well, I’d be glad for the system to be made more realistic, but some *dumbing down rulez* people will join VD in his apeshit crusade :). And, as it seems, alienating them is something Bethesda does NOT want.
    So, unless you want to roleplay this to such an extent, it’s not really important.
    And besides, in MW it was possible to have blocking daggers and such. Sure, it was just models of weapons instead of shield, but it was looking rather nice. I bet that would be possible in Oblivion too.
    You could not attack with them however, of course.
    Not that you do that a lot in real combat, though.
     
    ^ Top  
  9. TheGreatGodPan Arbiter

    TheGreatGodPan
    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,762
    The weird reason is that your character isn't that good. It might seem exaggerated, but it makes more sense than letting everyone hit regardless of how good with the weapon they are.
     
    ^ Top  
  10. TheGreatGodPan Arbiter

    TheGreatGodPan
    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,762
    I concur and would also add that samurais were largely restricted to fighting other samurais. The reason Europe had the dark ages (and why knights became dominant) was because it was constantly attacked by Vikings, Huns, Magyars and Moors, and then once it had gotten stable enough to reach out they fought Arabs, Turks, Mongols, Slavs and anyone else in the vicinity. The samurai were so hooked on what they thought was the ideal and only proper way to fight that they decided guns could just be ignored. That kind of thinking is a recipe for defeat.
     
    ^ Top  
  11. Tintin Arbiter

    Tintin
    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2005
    Messages:
    1,480
    You're telling me if you picked up a sword right now and you tried to hit an enemy directly in front of you, you would be more surprised if you hit the person standing right before you than if it goes swinging wildly to the right?

    (and you do know that even if you hit it, it may not do any damage)
     
    ^ Top  
  12. Drakron Arcane

    Drakron
    Joined:
    May 19, 2005
    Messages:
    6,098
    God ...

    Japan had shitty armor because their iron was low quality, there was simply not enough to make full suits of armor like in european armies in the dark ages (not later since with the advent of firearms armor lost its point).

    And it never got "better", it remained the same until the Meiji Restoration were they finaly modernized and started to outfit soldiers the same way as wersten nations.

    Also they did NOT dual wield, at least its not a common style despite the fact Samurai carried 2 weapons but Samurai were not by any means the bunk of Japanese feudal armies, archers and spearman were (just like european armies).

    The Wakizashi just served as a "side arm" to when the Katana was unavaible.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakizashi

    In fact dual wield became more common in europe with dualists.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_d ... nd_weapons
     
    ^ Top  
  13. Sarvis Erudite

    Sarvis
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    Messages:
    5,050
    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    I never said all, or even most, Samurai dual wielded. Some did though, most notably Miyamoto Musashi.

    Though, to be fair, he recommends using the katana two handed in a one on one fight... I guess with his style dual wielding was more effective against multiple opponents.
     
    ^ Top  
  14. Drakron Arcane

    Drakron
    Joined:
    May 19, 2005
    Messages:
    6,098
    To be even more fair:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi

    Were the legend and truth begins is hard to know now.

    And no, dual wield is a defensive style were you use a weapon to block/lock the enemy weapon as you trust with your off hand weapon, its not useful against multi enemies (a shield is far preferable since it have "turtle" abilities or a weapon with reach ... well its best just use a ranged weapon and kill then before they can engage).
     
    ^ Top  
  15. Pr()ZaC Scholar

    Pr()ZaC
    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    431
    In Samurai Spirits (yes, Samurai Showdown from SNK) there were fighters (the ninja?) that used dual weapons for defence :p
     
    ^ Top  
  16. DarkUnderlord Bringing that old Raptor magic.

    DarkUnderlord
    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2002
    Messages:
    24,650
    So you're saying that it's too hard to make a "polished and as realistic and gritty as possible" man vs man combat system then? I'm confused. :?

    From Evil Avatar:

    Keep polishing.
     
    ^ Top  
  17. truekaiser Scholar

    truekaiser
    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2005
    Messages:
    116
    raise your hand if all the information they have let out has given you the impression that the typical fps technique of circling and firing(or in this case swinging your sword... i mean blade) is all you need to do to win in combat.

    *raises hand.*
     
    ^ Top  
  18. Twinfalls Erudite

    Twinfalls
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    3,903
    As moving as it is to see that you now consider me your wife, I think you're spending perhaps a little too much time here if you're 'hearing incessant nagging'....
     
    ^ Top  
  19. Balor Arcane

    Balor
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    Messages:
    5,165
    Location:
    Russia
    Well, hmm.
    In RL, swordfighting when you combatants stay in place and just fire, I mean, slash/thrust at each other is a travesty.
    You do have to dodge in all directions, twist your torso, duck and lean, etc, etc.
    So, it's more realistic this way.
     
    ^ Top  
  20. Chefe Erudite

    Chefe
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    4,731
    in·ces·sant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-ssnt)
    adj.
    Continuing without interruption.

    nag1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ng)
    v. nagged, nag·ging, nags
    v. tr.
    To annoy by constant scolding, complaining, or urging.


    Funny, I don't see "wife" mentioned anywhere in there. No, I do believe "incessant nagging" correctly describes what you're doing. Next time, try and think up a witty retort. :D
     
    ^ Top  
  21. Sarvis Erudite

    Sarvis
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    Messages:
    5,050
    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    I'll check the article out later, but I think I trust what Musashi says in his own book written to help others learn his style of fighting over a wiki article.
     
    ^ Top  
  22. Drakron Arcane

    Drakron
    Joined:
    May 19, 2005
    Messages:
    6,098
    Well then you trust a man that one point considered wood superior to steel (of course that just shows the incredible low quality of japanese steel ore).
     
    ^ Top  
  23. Sarvis Erudite

    Sarvis
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    Messages:
    5,050
    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    I never heard that, reference?

    The way I heard it, at one point he considered his skills so superior he thought it was unfair to use a metal sword so he used wood.

    That's probably an exagguration, but he did use a boken to dual at least one person according to that wiki article and a boat oar to kill another man according to another legend I heard.

    Point being: If he did consider wood superior, he won while using it so maybe he was right. :P
     
    ^ Top  
  24. Drakron Arcane

    Drakron
    Joined:
    May 19, 2005
    Messages:
    6,098
    Its on the wiki.

    I am not suprised, bambu swords for example are very strong and as I say it again the quality of iron in japan was very low, the katana was a slashing weapon and the blade itself could only take so much abuse, most katana were likely of such low quality steal one hit was enough to destroy the cutting edge.

    Besides most duels in that time were not to death, there is not much diference if one used a wooden weapon or a steel weapon since the aim was not to kill, just to make the other surrender.

    Of course that a lot of his legend is BS ... now much was added to nationalists before WW II and now much was added by Samurai fayboys?

    Even him is caught in a lie since he claimed to have killed someone as records show that person not only lived but claims to have beaten him ... that is why I said were the legend ends and the man begins.

    And last, dual wielding styles became popular after firearms, the portuguese intruduced rifles in japan before he was born and the japanese copy the design, manufactured the design and used then in war so my point continues to be that dual wield is nothing but a dualist style that had little place in the battleground.
     
    ^ Top  

(buying stuff via the above buttons helps us pay the hosting bills, thanks!)