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Company News Obsidian reportedly about to be acquired by Microsoft

Discussion in 'RPG News & Content' started by Infinitron, Oct 10, 2018.

  1. Roguey Arcane Sawyerite Sawyerist Sawyer's Bride No Fun Allowed

    Roguey
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    Imagine if they knew that they only pitched it because "if we don't, someone else will" and not out of any particular passion.

    For posterity, here are most of the Roguey trolls from Project Eternity

    Show Spoiler



    Something that's largely been forgotten is how there was a huge thing about cooldowns in the middle of the campaign. In the end, he went back to Vancian.
     
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  2. Ismaul Arcane Patron

    Ismaul
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    Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
    I find the animosity towards Sawyer very funny.

    Here at the RPG Codex we're like "here's everything wrong with your RPG", yet that doesn't mean we hate them. Rather, we care so much that it's a given we like RPGs and shift our focus on criticism, because the games could be better. Sawyer is the same. "Oh noes he talks shit about something I like he's just a hater!!1!" Fucking LOL. Plus, Baldur's Gate wasn't great at all, it was just the first non-Goldbox D&D game, and suffered from Biowaritis so much that it was derided on the Codex for years (ask Volourn the only staunch Bioware defender until the great newfag decline). Turns out Sawyer is much like an old Codex grog.

    Also, D&D 3.5 is flawed in many ways (and some of those flaws are especially visible on the GM side). There is much improvement to be had. Sawyer's criticisms of the system actually lines up with what D&D 3e/3.5's designers saw as flaws too (I GMed D&D so I read the weekly designer diaries / forums / Q&A and all that good shit for years). And how do you fix problems? Well, by experimenting, which sometimes leads to less desirable results in certain aspects, which you can then understand and correct. What Sawyer did was very ambitious. We need people taking those risks in the industry, otherwise it would simply stagnate.

    Now, you could ask, was this redesign approach appropriate for PoE? You might think not. You might be angry that "it's not the game I imagined when I read the pitch". But I personally would never had backed it if it was a straight up BG clone they promised. So to say the pitch was dishonest because the result is not enough like BG, that's just your Kickstarter hopes manifesting. I felt that if the pitch was dishonest, it's because what we got is too much like BG, and the game suffered from it. One could say that the pitch was vague enough and schizo enough to give rise to both reactions. But that doesn't make Sawyer dishonest.

    Y'all acting like spurned housewives. Sawyer is a bro.
     
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  3. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    IIRC it was Feargus who started that particular panic, not Josh.

    But yes, there was already plenty of ill will towards the game during the campaign. See my "Project Eternity Doom Squad" post - a classic. :P
     
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  4. Roguey Arcane Sawyerite Sawyerist Sawyer's Bride No Fun Allowed

    Roguey
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    Having just skimmed through that thread, I can assure you that Josh strongly defended this plan on the Obsidian boards.
     
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  5. Mustawd Arcane

    Mustawd
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    That’s a fair point. Tbh tho, I never look at updates once I pledge. Unless it’s something substantial. But that’s on me.
     
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  6. Fairfax Arcane

    Fairfax
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    That's false.

    A "grog" who hates AD&D. :lol:

    What does 3.5E have to do with BG?

    Indeed:
    [​IMG]

    EDIT: I believe this is the Feargus quote that was also responsible for the panic:

     
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  7. IHaveHugeNick Arcane

    IHaveHugeNick
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    That's blatant revisionism and then some.

    Sawyers open contempt for certain aspects of IE games is what drawn a lot of people into the whole project in a first place, including yours truly. Turning a turn-based system into a real time clusterfuck has been controversial ever since the IE classics came out, and while the games remain popular to this day, a sizeable portion of the fanbase likes them despite the combat, not because of it. So to imply that they were trying to hide their plans is absolute nonsense. They didn't need to. Having a system that is actually designed for a video game from the ground up was incredibly appealing. How it turned out is a different conversation.

    I have the same problem with Kingmaker, on a first glance it looks fucking great, but then I'm reminded that RtWP implementation of a dice-roll based PnP system is nearly guaranteed to give me ass cancer.
     
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  8. Tigranes Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Tigranes
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    Serpent in the Staglands Torment: Tides of Numenera
    See, take a comment like this:

    That's an entirely reasonable position to take as someone who is pitching a non-D&D new IP Kickstarter heavily inspired by IE games. It's also an entirely reasonable position to take as a game designer.

    One could disagree about the specifics (is rest spamming really a problem?) or the final outcome (hey I think your game ended up worse for it), but it's just dumb to obsess about how Sawyer 'hates' IE and sabotaged it or something. The next step to that is obsessive fappy-fappy about his weight and his biking and his relationship with his father. (Which obviously some Codexers are into.) Sawyer is hardly a Designer God. His record is mixed. He's also hardly a fascinating villain that is worth obsessing over. At least for people who fap disturbingly about MCA, they're doing it with someone that did make one unique, brilliant game with a signature style.
     
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  9. IHaveHugeNick Arcane

    IHaveHugeNick
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    Any discussion about Josh in the end is a variation of the old dillema - do you want to give your money to a bland, boring, slightly autistic accountant who is reliable and gets shit done on time, or do you want to give your money to "i'm so quirky" self-proclaimed creative genius full of inspiring ideas who will have a 5-year delay, go 3 times overdbudget and is just as likely to create a masterpiece as he is to create a pile of dog shit.
     
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  10. Haba Harbinger of Decline Patron

    Haba
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    Codex 2012 MCA Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
    It is nice of you to defend your coworker, Nick.

    But I'd rather give my money to someone who can make a fun game. I don't give a fuck about the systems if the game isn't fun to play.
     
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  11. AwesomeButton Cut a deal with the authorities Patron

    AwesomeButton
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    In my defense, it was 2013, I was young, stupid and had just experimented with Kickstarter, and Sawyer was handsome and mysterious, I was feeling confused.
     
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  12. Ismaul Arcane Patron

    Ismaul
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    Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
    One can like playing the game, like the general concept, like the settings, but not the detail of the rules. Any PnP group worth its salt had a bunch of house rules and homebrewed stuff. Modifying the rules to fit your style and group is part of the game, and there are whole sections in the rulebooks dedicated to explaining that and giving examples and guidelines. So being critical about the rules does not at all mean that you dislike the game; it's expected. Hell, from the very start AD&D is about customizing the rules: there's 6 methods of rolling ability scores, and so on. But I imagine you don't come from a PnP background. Unlike in PnP RPGs, in cRPGs the rules have always been fixed by the designers, so that system design is not something you interact with or take part in as a player. It's a different mindset.

    Also most grogs don't play the old editions, they play retro clones with rules based on an edition but refined and improved. Much like there are a lot of people playing Pathfinder instead of D&D 3.5. Why? Clearly because they hate the original edition. :roll:

    It's the D&D rules that were the most commonly known, both in cRPGs and PnP, when Pillars was pitched. Any BG successor would be expected to measure up to D&D 3.5 not 2e in terms of rules, especially since the ruleset had been used in successors of BG (NWN, KotOR). 4E was controversial. If you've read Sawyer a bit, you know that he had 3.5E as reference when designing, and that he looked at what he could bring over from 4E (the Defenses and per encounter abilities in PoE being a direct import).

    All I see here is that they're experimenting with different rules, without having yet chosen what particular mechanics will be used, but rather trying to see what works for their design goals. Seems like everything was on the table when they started designing, but in the end for most things they ended up playing it safe and staying close to D&D rules.
     
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  13. Bohr Arcane

    Bohr
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    Partying like it's 2012 :D

    Anyway, for some reason the conversation reminded me of those fun old threads where Gaider would be posting about Bioware or something and Sawyer would just happen to stop by to point out the various things BG got wrong :shittydog:

    eg:
     
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  14. Edija Savant Patron

    Edija
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    Woah, there is nothing sweeter than Microsoft chattel slavery and Windows Store exclusive products
     
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  15. Fairfax Arcane

    Fairfax
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    Public discussion and press coverage were dominated by people who liked and missed the IE games (or at least a couple of them), not people who shared Sawyer's views.
    Yes, I'm sure he doesn't hate AD&D. Still, he prefers new editions, which have completely different design, style, and spirit. They're very different games, and that's why grognards stick to old editions/retro-clones.
    Agreed, AD&D is all about customized rulesets. It's one of its strengths. Sawyer doesn't agree, however, and has mocked the idea of AD&D being flexible.
    :lol:
    You're talking about people who stick to the old edition they like the most. Sawyer trashes the old editions and believes 4E (!) is the best, he's the opposite of a grognard. You seem to be a fan of his, so I'm surprised you don't know that.

    It didn't have to be measured up to 3.5E, the campaign itself never set such standards. That was fine, though. In fact, something even closer to 3.5E would've been better.
    Exploring different options was fine. The point was that the campaign wouldn't have received as much support if everyone knew more about the project's goals and the people behind it. There's a big difference between this:

    And
     
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  16. AwesomeButton Cut a deal with the authorities Patron

    AwesomeButton
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    PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Long story short, if someone says "let's make an Infinity Engine game" and then delivers core gameplay (combat) which has nothing to do with either Infinity Engine game, the fault is with the backers, because they should have read this promise as a metaphor.
     
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  17. FeelTheRads Arcane Patron

    FeelTheRads
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    Funny how in the end it turned out from "Chris Avellone, Tim Cain, and Josh Sawyer" to "Josh Sawyer and some stuff by other people".

    As far as I remember he said that a system is bad if players use house rules. So technically he didn't mock the flexibility, but it's really the same thing.
    I'm guessing that's why his modus operandi is to limit player options as much as possible. Hey, the less things the player does that I didn't account for the better the system must be!
     
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  18. Archibald Arcane

    Archibald
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    To me it reads like blame shifting. Everyone knows that lots of people ain't going to read all the updates so if you mislead people with your initial pitch and then reveal some key info that fundamentally changes everything in update #24 then it is on you and not on consumers. Sure, in perfect world everyone reads everything and makes rational decisions, but reality is different and I'm sure that marketing people are aware of that.
     
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  19. Prime Junta Arcane

    Prime Junta
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    This attitude honestly puzzles me. We already have Wizardry 7. Why would we need another one? Even if somehow "objectively" it was as good as the original (=as rich, as complex, as big etc) it would still be a warmed-over retread. If you like Wizardry 7, then go play Wizardry 7, it hasn't gone anywhere.

    Basically, that's like... I dunno, saying that all detective stories ought to be like Raymond Chandler. You can always go back to them and they'll never lose their lustre. Why would you settle for a knock-off when you can have the original any time?
     
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  20. Mustawd Arcane

    Mustawd
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    Yes, gib me ur monies please.
     
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  21. Fairfax Arcane

    Fairfax
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    He did:
    Bonus:
    And there might be more, since Roguey used to parrot this stuff:
     
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  22. mondblut Arcane

    mondblut
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    I already played Wizardry 7 to death, dummy.

    We could indeed use more Raymond Chandler as opposed to crap they are putting out nowadays.
     
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  23. AwesomeButton Cut a deal with the authorities Patron

    AwesomeButton
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    He actually said that? This is such bullshit. I guess this doesn't apply if the game developer includes special modes and calls them "challenges"? Then they are not "bandages for bad design"? :lol:
     
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  24. Fairfax Arcane

    Fairfax
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    No, Roguey did. He was basically LARPing Sawyer at the time, though, and it's in line with things he's said.
     
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  25. Mustawd Arcane

    Mustawd
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    Your puzzlement puzzles me.

    Why play Wizardry 2 or 3? Just keep playing Wizardry 1.

    Why play Avernum 2 or 3? Just play Avernum 1.

    Why play mods of XYZ game? It’s still the same core game mechanics. Just play XYZ game.

    Why play an expansion of the same game you own? Just play that same game.

    Are we done with this argument yet? No? Ok, then let me expand further.

    When someone says “I just want a real fallout 3 or a bg3 or another Wizardry 7, they’re basically saying “I want a true and genuine sucessor or expansion of the game I just mentioned”

    In other words, deliver me a game that would have been made in the vein of the old game I liked in the era I liked but make its own thing, even if similar. And there is nothing wrong with that. Really nostalgia fans will really fall into three main categories:

    1.) I want a game almost exactly like the old ones. Even all the UI quirks, gameplay, MIDI sound/music and artstyle of that era.

    2.) I want a game very sinilar to the old ones, but I’m ok with some modern touches like 3D graphics, better UI, etc.

    3.) I want a spirirtual sucessor that captures a lot of the feelz and lore of the old games but expands the gameplay and switches up the formula to not only modernize it but push the boundaries of design as if the series still continued today.

    These groups of people have and will always exist. The only difference with kickstarter is that all three will have given money in advance for the thing they want. So naturally you’re going to get butthurt no matter what.
     
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