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IHaveHugeNick

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I thought it was Chris himself who didn't want to be lead writer, so I don't know how can you blame his lack of involvement on anybody at Obsidian. It's practically a meme at this point that every Kickstarter RPG has Avellone plastered all over their marketing and promotional material, and then it turns out he wrote half a companion and an item description for a broomstick.
 

Terra

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You will take the full length of the Chris Avellone broomstick companion stretch goal inside your gaping companion slot and like it.
 

commie

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"Don't criticize game mechanics I like, what do you think this is, the RPG Codex?"

To be fair, Voly is right...Vancian style was what introduced me to RPG's and is a far more impressive implementation of spellcaster progression from weak as piss liability to instrument of utter death, than gatling gun 'spam spells for as long as you have clips(mana potions)' or cooldown hotkeys. The whole character system that has physical attackers get progressively weaker in comparison with spellcasters in early AD&D while the latter increase in power exponentially due to this style also is far more interesting as per party development than bog standard 'everyone gets awesome at the same linear rate' that we get almost everywhere else.
 

Ismaul

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Lets remove vancian and make all the fights an ability spam fest where I just spam my Nuke abilities over and over and over again without regard or real limits
You do know that 4E's "nuke" abilities refreshed daily, just like in the vancian system?


What's the point of removing Vancian casting when its a distinctive part of your brand, though? It's short-sighted self-destruction.
Well, D&D's brand wasn't that rigid, it was more like the fantasy RPG that everyone customized to his liking, and from which other games took their inspiration. (Also mechanics can't be copyrighted, so they can't be "brand identity" from a legal standpoint.) Vancian casting might've been the default but there is a good proportion of the player base that wasn't satisfied with it. Two obvious reasons come to mind: 1) not every setting was compatible with the vancian idea of how spellcasting works, i.e. that preparation/memorization is "locking mystical energies in the mind of the Wizard that are expended and wiped from the Wizard's mind when the spell is cast" (AD&D and 3E), so that you couldn't even cast twice a spell you had memorized once; and 2) not all adventures worked well with a daily refresh of abilities, which presupposed that you'd do multiple combat encounters per day, rather than one per week for example. Also, it didn't make sense and work for every adventure that you couldn't take the time to change your prepared spells during the day (say you have 5+ gaming sessions happening during the same in-game day). Many houseruled those things.

Even in AD&D, the Spells and Magic splatbook introduced a point-based spellcasting system, because people were using such systems in their houseruled games. 3E was clever about this, making different classes tied to different spellcasting systems, so you'd choose the class that had the casting system you wanted (unlike in 4E where you had no choice in the matter). In 3E every non-Wizard spellcasting class was an experimentation in spellcasting design, a variant pseudo-vancian system or a completely different alternative. 3E also introduced Spontaneous Casting, which is the idea that certain classes can always replace a prepared spell with one spell specific to their class (i.e cure wounds for a cleric), removing some of the vancian limitations. Splatbooks (Complete Mage) introduced that option for Wizards (trade a slot for a spontaneous cast).

Remember also that D&D isn't called Wizards & Dragons. Vancian was a very small part of what D&D was/is.
 

Ismaul

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Yes, but that was a 3E thing. The game's design promoted that, despite what the DMG said. AD&D was different, and pretty much everyone (including Gygax) played with multiple house rules.
True, 3E moved all the talk of rule customization to the DMG, and that was a weak point in its presentation. It definitely led to rampant arguing over the RAW on the WotC forums, over what is the correct rule rather than what ruling you use in your group and why. Sold more books though, since people craved for the official word above that of their GM/table.

Hmm, that's news to me. Maybe he meant that the main rules, aside from the options, are rigid? Such as race limitations on min/max attribute scores and class levels, class attribute requirements, etc. Saying that the game isn't flexible in those respects wouldn't be false, despite the fact that the game is meant to be house ruled and had mass options.
I do think it's false. The heavy use of well-defined archetypes used to be one D&D's pillars. That sort of complaint implies that allowing any character to be anything should be the default state, but that's a different approach, not something inherently superior.
Well, classes and races have always been well-defined archteypes, and that's enough. No need for ability score requirements to have that, for example. 3E was clever about how to mechanically model those archetypes, introducing ability score adjustements for races and favored classes rather than class limitations and minimal ability score requirements. That is a more flexible approach than AD&D, that maintains the well-defined archetypes.
 

Ismaul

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To be fair, Voly is right...Vancian style was what introduced me to RPG's and is a far more impressive implementation of spellcaster progression from weak as piss liability to instrument of utter death, than gatling gun 'spam spells for as long as you have clips(mana potions)' or cooldown hotkeys. The whole character system that has physical attackers get progressively weaker in comparison with spellcasters in early AD&D while the latter increase in power exponentially due to this style also is far more interesting as per party development than bog standard 'everyone gets awesome at the same linear rate' that we get almost everywhere else.
Well, this progression you like about the Wizard, from zero to God, does not require a vancian spellcasting system to express. It could easily be done with a different mechanical representation of that idea. The alternative is not just potions/cooldowns. All the alternate D&D spellcasting systems prove it.

Second, it's ok to like the disparity of powers between classes. That's particularly not an issue when you control a whole party, such as in cRPGs. But for PnP, at the table where everyone controls a single character, and where the time spent playing a high level character could be years rather than the couple of hours you put into a cRPG, it's much less fun to be outclassed at everything in every encounter by the members of your own team. Wizard could be better rogues, better fighters, better social dudes, etc. at high level. But at the table, if your contribution to the co-op effort is almost insignificant for a long period of tme, that does impact negatively the experience you have. If whatever you do is of next to no consequence, why play at all? This is the main reason for the move towards uniformisation in class power.

Admittedly, what is required for at the table play (the ability to contribute significantly and regularly enough to many encounters your party faces so you can have fun) and what fits with worldbuilding / novels (Wizards being all powerful) can be at odds, but that's a consequence of them being different media.
 

Spectacle

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One aspect of AD&D class balance that's often overlooked is that by the rules a high level fighter is supposed to have an army. Pretty much every AD&D CRPG and most PnP games ignore this because it's difficult to fit an army into the plot or whatever, so it's no surprise that fighters seem unimpressive at higher levels when they never actually get their high level features!

In 3e D&D it seems like the design goal was for fighters to be the best at individual combat, but it didn't work out this way because the design team kept adding more and more powerful options for other classes, especially high level spells that could bypass pretty much any problem.

5e more or less nail the martial/magic balance. High level spells are very powerful, but magic can't match weapons when it comes to single target damage, and high level boss monsters are often extremely resistant to magic, forcing casters into support roles for the most important fights.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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One aspect of AD&D class balance that's often overlooked is that by the rules a high level fighter is supposed to have an army. Pretty much every AD&D CRPG and most PnP games ignore this because it's difficult to fit an army into the plot or whatever, so it's no surprise that fighters seem unimpressive at higher levels when they never actually get their high level features!
D&D from the beginning had as an intended end-game that the player-characters should build strongholds and rule dominions. However, the original rules contained only a few pages detailing this aspect of the game, and AD&D was similarly lacking in this regard despite a much larger number of pages in the core rulebooks. It wasn't until the publication of the D&D 'Green Box' Companion Set in 1984 that semi-detailed rules finally existed for dominion rulership, but AD&D 2nd edition failed to continue this, instead again providing little explanation of how this aspect of the game was intended to work.
 

Prime Junta

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D&D from the beginning had as an intended end-game that the player-characters should build strongholds and rule dominions. However, the original rules contained only a few pages detailing this aspect of the game, and AD&D was similarly lacking in this regard despite a much larger number of pages in the core rulebooks. It wasn't until the publication of the D&D 'Green Box' Companion Set in 1984 that semi-detailed rules finally existed for dominion rulership, but AD&D 2nd edition failed to continue this, instead again providing little explanation of how this aspect of the game was intended to work.

I think the problem is simpler. Ruling a dominion and running a stronghold is just not as much fun as adventuring, however you rule it.
 

Fairfax

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but AD&D 2nd edition failed to continue this, instead again providing little explanation of how this aspect of the game was intended to work.
I think 2E DMG plus The Castle Guide covered that well, especially castle construction. There wasn't much on kingdom management, but that's a different sort of campaign.

I think the problem is simpler. Ruling a dominion and running a stronghold is just not as much fun as adventuring, however you rule it.
It does have a limited appeal, but Birthright showed it can be fun.
 

J_C

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Ruling a dominion and running a stronghold is just not as much fun as adventuring, however you rule it.

Tell that to Illwinter

@Illwinter ruling a dominion and running a stronghold is just not as much fun as adventuring, however you rule it.
aCBPI37.gif
 

Ismaul

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AD&D 2nd edition failed to continue this, instead again providing little explanation of how this aspect of the game was intended to work
True.

Also, giving the fighter a 100 men army doesn't really balance him with the Wizard, because the balance is still not there in the typical adventuring party scenario. Sure, the fighter could bring a squad of men on adventures with him, but they're lvl 1-2, cannon fodder, and that would require revisiting combat mechanics so the fights don't bog down in minutia. You'd have to get creative, maybe treat the squad as a swarm or as one large character attacking all adjacent ennemies, doing maneuvres as attacks, etc. That kind of reskin was easier with 4E's gamist approach, and I used it to great effect in my games. D&D itself, even after mass splatbooks and multiple editions, didn't really allow for tactical encounters with the PCs + a bunch of NPC squads. You had to choose: party tactical fights, or mass battles where PCs were strategists. Abstract the army, or abstract the PCs, because of the difference in scale.


I think the problem is simpler. Ruling a dominion and running a stronghold is just not as much fun as adventuring, however you rule it.
I think it's rather that it's just a different gameplay. And because the class system makes every character be built as an adventurer, as someone that is supposed to work in a party of a handful of dudes with complementary powers to kill monsters in dungeons, D&D characters aren't adapted to such gameplay. You can try to add systems to D&D to model that, give class options and stuff, but at its core D&D classes are made for tactical combat, most of their abilities serve that purpose (plus a small amount of related activites -- getting access to quests and loot). For dominion ruling to be the gameplay focus, you'd need a different character system and an entirely different approach to encounter design, since they most likely would involve social / political challenges rather than tactical ones.
 

Zeriel

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Worth mentioning that D&D started from the basis of a wargame, which makes much more sense to have a strategy element involved.

I think it's a cool idea, though. I mean, King of Dragon Pass is one of the best RPGs I've played that wasn't an RPG. It definitely has more roleplaying and choices and consequences than most RPGs.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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I think the problem is simpler. Ruling a dominion and running a stronghold is just not as much fun as adventuring, however you rule it.
Also, giving the fighter a 100 men army doesn't really balance him with the Wizard, because the balance is still not there in the typical adventuring party scenario. Sure, the fighter could bring a squad of men on adventures with him, but they're lvl 1-2, cannon fodder, and that would require revisiting combat mechanics so the fights don't bog down in minutia. You'd have to get creative, maybe treat the squad as a swarm or as one large character attacking all adjacent ennemies, doing maneuvres as attacks, etc. That kind of reskin was easier with 4E's gamist approach, and I used it to great effect in my games. D&D itself, even after mass splatbooks and multiple editions, didn't really allow for tactical encounters with the PCs + a bunch of NPC squads. You had to choose: party tactical fights, or mass battles where PCs were strategists. Abstract the army, or abstract the PCs, because of the difference in scale.
Dominion rulership tied back to the origins of D&D in miniatures wargaming, since the player-characters and their troops would become involved in various conflicts that would necessitate mass battles. These could be resolved using Chainmail rules for medieval miniatures (predating the publication of original D&D, though a final revision occurred afterward), or the D&D War Machine rules found in the Companion Box Set (an abstracted approach), or in the AD&D BattleSystem Fantasy Combat Supplement (new rules for miniatures battles). Both warfare and management of dominions were supplements to adventuring rather than replacements for it.
 

Ismaul

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That mass battles can be resolved with wargaming rules is all good. I was just pointing out that the fighter having an army in his class progression doesn't serve to balance him vs the wizard, because the army won't be used during a party's main activities, i.e. adventuring. Like you say, warfare and dominion management are supplements to adventuring, "downtime activites" much like a wizard would have his lab to manage, spell research and magic item creation.

If you want to balance the fighter vs the wizard in their high level adventuring activites by giving the fighter followers, those would have to be used during adventuring. But that's not what D&D did.
 

Zeriel

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That mass battles can be resolved with wargaming rules is all good. I was just pointing out that the fighter having an army in his class progression doesn't serve to balance him vs the wizard, because the army won't be used during a party's main activities, i.e. adventuring. Like you say, warfare and dominion management are supplements to adventuring, "downtime activites" much like a wizard would have his lab to manage, spell research and magic item creation.

If you want to balance the fighter vs the wizard in their high level adventuring activites by giving the fighter followers, those would have to be used during adventuring. But that's not what D&D did.

I think the point here is that it balances them overall. As pointed out many times on this website over the years, the game is not even really balanced for adventuring at high/epic levels anyway, most games stop at around level 10, so comparing combat balance at that point in a vacuum is already beyond standard practice.
 

Jaesun

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Fascinating. I did not expect Obsidian to end like this, if the M$ deal goes through (if true).
 

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