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Operencia: The Stolen Sun - turn-based blobber by Hungarian pinball devs

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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Looks nice, pre-gen parties in a blobber are a warning sign though. I mean it could work, but it leaves me cautious.
 

Unkillable Cat

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Tile-based

nice.png


Turn-based

decline.png


Pass.
 

Unkillable Cat

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time to hand in your
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badge

After you.

We could certainly use more Dungeon Master-likes, but not every game needs to be one.

I know that, and I have nothing against proper turn-based games. But this game is trying to be like Dungeon Master, as it's real-time in all aspects except the combat. Explain how that adds up.

Past games have had to make various compromises due to technological limitations, but that was 30+ years ago. There is nothing that justifies a game being made today that deliberately mixes the two genres in such a lopsided manner.

Either make it a proper turn-based game, or a proper real-time game. There is no in-between.
 

Darth Roxor

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But this game is trying to be like Dungeon Master, as it's real-time in all aspects except the combat. Explain how that adds up.

how about you tell us how it doesn't first
 

J_C

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Past games have had to make various compromises due to technological limitations, but that was 30+ years ago. There is nothing that justifies a game being made today that deliberately mixes the two genres in such a lopsided manner.

Either make it a proper turn-based game, or a proper real-time game. There is no in-between.

Why would you make the out of combat part turn based? It would be annoying and slow, and wouldn't add anything to the game. It is not Heroes 3, where every move must be considered. Walking around in the world should be real time, and only the combat (which has tactical elements) should be turn based. Just like they do that.
 

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Why would you make the out of combat part turn based? It would be annoying and slow, and wouldn't add anything to the game.

Precisely. That's the downside of turn-based, it slows everything down. You have to design the entire game around the turn-based concept to avoid that. Heroes 3 is turn-based through and through.

Imagine you make a game that's 100% real-time. Now take one major aspect of it and make it turn-based. What would you get? It would be annoying and slow, and whatever it added to the game would be counteractive and break the immersion. (For added mental exercise, create a 100% turn-based game and make one major aspect of it real-time, see if that works out any better.)

And like it or not, immersion sells better than a good combat system, even if it's turn-based and tacked onto a real-time game.

Back then we didn't have much of a choice about what kind of games we played. Now we have choice, and I choose to pass on this title.
 

Darth Roxor

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Why would you make the out of combat part turn based? It would be annoying and slow, and wouldn't add anything to the game.

Precisely. That's the downside of turn-based, it slows everything down. You have to design the entire game around the turn-based concept to avoid that. Heroes 3 is turn-based through and through.

Imagine you make a game that's 100% real-time. Now take one major aspect of it and make it turn-based. What would you get? It would be annoying and slow, and whatever it added to the game would be counteractive and break the immersion. (For added mental exercise, create a 100% turn-based game and make one major aspect of it real-time, see if that works out any better.)

And like it or not, immersion sells better than a good combat system, even if it's turn-based and tacked onto a real-time game.

Back then we didn't have much of a choice about what kind of games we played. Now we have choice, and I choose to pass on this title.

Many words to say nothing, complete with false equivalences like Apocalypse which doesn't make the mistake of making one aspect real-time where everything else is turn-based - it tries to make that aspect work in both real-time and turn-based at the same time.

Also, Wizardry 8 is real-time in exploration, turn-based in combat, and yet somehow it werks out just fine.

And even further, I fail to see how a turn-based interface/arena for combat that is separate from the actual world depicted during exploration is somehow completely anathema when in practice you have that shit happen everywhere else, from Wizardry, through Might and Magic, Bard's Tale, Realms of Arkania or even Krondor.
 

thesheeep

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Imagine you make a game that's 100% real-time. Now take one major aspect of it and make it turn-based. What would you get? It would be annoying and slow, and whatever it added to the game would be counteractive and break the immersion.
That's just absurd.
All real-time blobber combat ever has simply been about hitting the enter button as quickly as you can to attack with whatever main weapon the current character has, that and maybe mix in QTEs aka Dance Dance Revolution.
Because there is no time for anything more thoughtful than that. At least not in party-based dungeon crawlers (single person is different). You just cannot have interesting, deep combat in real-time if you have to manage multiple people at once.
Seriously, just look at this:

I love Might & Magic (especially 6 & 7), but I love it because of the world, the freedom, the art and the use of magic outside of combat (like, for buffing pre-combat or some other creative stuff like flight/feather fall). I basically love all aspects of it except the combat, but the combat itself is absurdly simple, always has been.
There is a reason the no1 strategy is to just give everyone bows to turn the game into a shooter with four weapons.

Turn-based combat in these games is the only thing that allows combat to have any actual depth besides just playing Dance Dance Revolution in a dungeon or similar clusterfucks. Of course, there are usually still trash mobs that devolve into pressing enter as quickly as possible to get it over with. But there are also lots of fights that will make you actually use your arsenal and possibilities, besides just pre-combat buffing or throwing a fireball while the enemies aren't in melee range yet.

And the "immersion breaking" is plain false as well. No game ever has broken the immersion of the player by switching to turn-based for combat, like... ah, I see Roxor has already stated that. Well, what he said.
 
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Many words to say nothing, complete with false equivalences like Apocalypse which doesn't make the mistake of making one aspect real-time where everything else is turn-based - it tries to make that aspect work in both real-time and turn-based at the same time.

And fails. Interesting how you don't mention that.

Also, Wizardry 8 is real-time in exploration, turn-based in combat, and yet somehow it werks out just fine.

I'll admit that I haven't played Wizardry 8, but from what I can tell it's not real-time, it just auto-passes the turns when not in combat to give the illusion of real-time. (Also to speed up a turn-based game.)

And even further, I fail to see how a turn-based interface/arena for combat that is separate from the actual world depicted during exploration is somehow completely anathema when in practice you have that shit happen everywhere else, from Wizardry, through Might and Magic, Bard's Tale, Realms of Arkania or even Krondor.

Look, if you purposefully refuse to read or acknowledge what I've already written you should just state that you're going to do so, leave the appropriate rating and go sulk in the corner because someone dares to have a different opinion to yours. It saves everyone lots of time.

That's just absurd.
All real-time blobber combat ever has simply been about hitting the enter button as quickly as you can to attack with whatever main weapon the current character has.
Because there is no time for anything more thoughtful than that. At least not in party-based dungeon crawlers (single person is different). You just cannot have interesting, deep combat in real-time if you have to manage multiple people at once.
Seriously, just look at this:

I love Might & Magic, but I love it because of the world, the freedom, the art and the use of magic outside of combat (like, for buffing pre-combat). I basically love all aspects of it except the combat, but the combat itself is atrocious and absurdly simple, always has been.
There is a reason the no1 strategy is to just give everyone bows to turn the game into a shooter with four weapons.

Turn-based combat in these games is the only thing that allows combat to have any actual depth besides just playing Dance Dance Revolution in a dungeon or similar clusterfucks. Of course, there are usually still trash mobs that devolve into pressing enter as quickly as possible to get it over with. But there are also lots of fights that will make you actually use your arsenal and possibilities, besides just pre-combat buffing or throwing a fireball while the enemies aren't in melee range yet.


Your bias against real-time dungeon crawlers is noted. It's also clear that you haven't played many of them at all. "Simply been about hitting the enter button as quickly as you can." "Because there is no time for anything more thoughtful than that." Riiight. Like real-time games do not have enemies that are immune to some things, but vulnerable to others, and leave it up to the player to have to switch out the weapons/spells in real-time to combat them.
 

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Your bias against real-time dungeon crawlers is noted. It's also clear that you haven't played many of them at all. "Simply been about hitting the enter button as quickly as you can." "Because there is no time for anything more thoughtful than that." Riiight. Like real-time games do not have enemies that are immune to some things, but vulnerable to others, and leave it up to the player to have to switch out the weapons/spells in real-time to combat them.
It is very telling that this is what you think counts as non-simplistic.
Switch out a weapon or spell, which you'd usually do prior to an encounter anyway? Really?
 

J_C

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Why would you make the out of combat part turn based? It would be annoying and slow, and wouldn't add anything to the game.

Precisely. That's the downside of turn-based, it slows everything down. You have to design the entire game around the turn-based concept to avoid that. Heroes 3 is turn-based through and through.

Imagine you make a game that's 100% real-time. Now take one major aspect of it and make it turn-based. What would you get? It would be annoying and slow, and whatever it added to the game would be counteractive and break the immersion. (For added mental exercise, create a 100% turn-based game and make one major aspect of it real-time, see if that works out any better.)

And like it or not, immersion sells better than a good combat system, even if it's turn-based and tacked onto a real-time game.

Back then we didn't have much of a choice about what kind of games we played. Now we have choice, and I choose to pass on this title.
So even Jagged Alliance is bad in this regard, because it has real time exploration?
 

Darth Roxor

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And fails. Interesting how you don't mention that.

It fails because it tries to have ONE major element BOTH turn-based AND real-time at the same time.

Also, if you really want to take X-COM as your example here, what do you say about the fact that the geoscape is real-time but combat is turn-based in the originals?

but from what I can tell it's not real-time

you can tell wrong

Look, if you purposefully refuse to read or acknowledge what I've already written you should just state that you're going to do so, leave the appropriate rating and go sulk in the corner because someone dares to have a different opinion to yours. It saves everyone lots of time.

No. I'm perfectly fine if you don't find this game appealing for whatever reason, but if that's the case, then you should just say so, instead of resorting to empty platitudes that you present as universal, yet which find no basis in reality.
 

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Besides the general WTF-ness of this argument, why are you all even assuming the exploration will be real-time and not Xeen-style in the first place?
 

thesheeep

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Besides the general WTF-ness of this argument, why are you all even assuming the exploration will be real-time and not Xeen-style in the first place?
Can't speak for the others, but I do not assume that.
It wouldn't matter too much to me, to be honest. When you are just walking around and exploring, there is no real difference between real-time and turn-based, other than turn-based being slower.
So when it comes to exploration, I prefer real-time (since turn-based does waste your time if nothing is actually happening), but I don't view it as a necessity.
 

Darth Roxor

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Besides the general WTF-ness of this argument, why are you all even assuming the exploration will be real-time and not Xeen-style in the first place?

I think he might have based this assumption on the trailer and the closing-opening pitfalls.

Fortunately, we now have the technology to contact developers directly and ask McLovinZen for a possible clarification.
 

V_K

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other than turn-based being slower
How is MMX slower than Grimrock outside of combat exactly? (purposefully talking about modern 3D games to avoid the technology debate)
I think he might have based this assumption on the trailer and the closing-opening pitfalls.
Xulima did some timing-based puzzles in TB, and it worked just fine. But yeah, let's hear the dev.
 

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other than turn-based being slower
How is MMX slower than Grimrock outside of combat exactly? (purposefully talking about modern 3D games to avoid the technology debate)
Depends entirely on the implementation.
With some games, there is a noticeable stop between each step. Step-stop-step-stop-step-stop, etc. It just isn't as seamless as real-time.
Or effects that first need to "resolve" with some kind of visual or audio effect before you can do the next step. Stuff like that.

It isn't something too aggravating, which is why I don't think it is too important for the exploration part. I just find real-time preferable here. TB combat solves a specific problem, but I don't really see a problem that TB exploration would solve.
 
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Unkillable Cat

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It is very telling that this is what you think counts as non-simplistic.
Switch out a weapon or spell, which you'd usually do prior to an encounter anyway? Really?

Your reaction speaks more about where your argument is coming from. You assume that in every conceivable scenario you know what you're up against before the battle even begins. Murphy has a law for that.

While the same predictions are possible with real-time games because them being games at the core, the basic fact cannot be denied that real-time game elements require that the player adapts to situations on the fly. You can have a battle plan deeper than the Mariana trench at the ready, but it'll only work as long as both your troops and your enemies obey it. That's turn-based combat. Real-time combat requires that you not only make a plan, but that you also follow it through yourself, making any needed changes to the plan as they're called upon.

Now try to guess which school of thought is more closer to life itself, guess which one is more engrossing for the player, and guess which one is more popular in general.

It fails because it tries to have ONE major element BOTH turn-based AND real-time at the same time.

Also, if you really want to take X-COM as your example here, what do you say about the fact that the geoscape is real-time but combat is turn-based in the originals?

Simple. The original X-COM games are actually two games stapled together, the Geoscape and the combat. They even have two seperate .exe files. They're also completely seperate in almost every way, to the point that describing them is like taping an apple to a banana and calling it a potato. Because the difference is so apparent no one really stops to think about it, but here you are.

But to truly "get it" you have to look at what Julian Gollop did after the release of the original UFO: Enemy Unknown. By that time he had established himself as a man who could consistently cook up a good turn-based tactical combat game, as seen by his ludography. Chaos, Rebel Star, Lazer Squad, Lords of Chaos, and so on. But after UFO he went on to try something new, to improve the formula. How did he do that? By making it real-time. Hence, X-COM Apocalypse. In that game the Geoscape is still kept at real-time, while the player can choose whether the combat scenarios are real-time or turn-based. Is the choice of systems done for the sake of gameplay, or to appeal to the playerbase that he'll be potentionally alienating by weakening his brand name? Furthermore, what games has Gollop released since X-COM Apocalypse, and what is their prime characteristic?

but from what I can tell it's not real-time

you can tell wrong

Then help me out here, since you know more about the game than I do. I checked briefly on YouTube to see how the game's mechanics worked out. Despite my best efforts I could not see a true real-time sequence in the game at all, just a turn-based engine that auto-passed all non-combat turns to give the illusion of real-time. (Fallout 1 & 2 plus Arcanum did the same, as well as Frayed Knights IIRC). Using the same resource, find me a video that shows where a Wizardry 8 player has to overcome some kind of in-game obstacle in a real-time environment. You know, dodging a trap, solving a puzzle dependant upon timing, something along those lines.

[So even Jagged Alliance is bad in this regard, because it has real time exploration?

See what I said about Wizardry 8, and other games above. Jagged Alliance is a turn-based game that auto-passes the turns when not in combat.

Look, if you purposefully refuse to read or acknowledge what I've already written you should just state that you're going to do so, leave the appropriate rating and go sulk in the corner because someone dares to have a different opinion to yours. It saves everyone lots of time.

No. I'm perfectly fine if you don't find this game appealing for whatever reason, but if that's the case, then you should just say so, instead of resorting to empty platitudes that you present as universal, yet which find no basis in reality.

I'm sorry... what?

Are you serious?

I already said that I don't find this game appealing to me. I detailed the reason. That's what my original post is all about. That would have been the end of it, except some mongoloid polack concluded that it was WrongThink, started making demands of me because of it and generally acted like the five-year-old SJW that he really is.

This stupid argument is all on you, being intolerant of anyone and everyone that dares to have a different opinion to you.

Fortunately, we now have the technology to contact developers directly and ask McLovinZen for a possible clarification.

As if on cue to prove my point, you appeal to a higher authority to try to draw attention from yourself, while simultaneously trying to smear your Opponent of the Day. It's not the first time you do this, and it won't be the last.

You are truly pathetic.
 

Darth Roxor

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Simple. The original X-COM games are actually two games stapled together, the Geoscape and the combat. They even have two seperate .exe files. They're also completely seperate in almost every way, to the point that describing them is like taping an apple to a banana and calling it a potato. Because the difference is so apparent no one really stops to think about it, but here you are.

You keep dancing around the issue and fumbling your own argument.

It seems you've chosen Apocalypse as the hill you wish to die on, and I sincerely don't get it, because I constantly point out how it's not relevant to what you're trying to argue, but you just keep coming back to it and digging yourself even deeper in.

The problem with Apoc is not that someone took a turn-based game and made it real-time. The problem with Apoc is that someone tried to make both of these work at the same time, within the same framework, using the same systems, mechanics, assets, everything.

You are bothered that this game looks like it has real time exploration, but turn based combat. I could understand the constant callbacks to Apoc if it had the choice of either real time or turn based combat, and I would sure as hell agree with them, because that never ends well.

But given that in TB blobbers combat is almost always clearly separate from exploration, in that exploration has its own mechanics, challenges and dynamics, while combat transports you into a separate interface with separate spells and actions, and given that how you view/act as the party is clearly separate during exploration and combat - you could say combat is when the blob finally un-blobs and you get to control specific dudes instead of only the entire band as a single entity - if you can't see how the on-the-fly comparison to X-COM geoscape vs combat is apt here, well...

Using the same resource, find me a video that shows where a Wizardry 8 player has to overcome some kind of in-game obstacle in a real-time environment. You know, dodging a trap, solving a puzzle dependant upon timing, something along those lines.

I guess you got me there because I can't remember any of those.

But at the same time... I can't think of a compelling reason why you couldn't put any of those into Wizardry 8 and have the game suffer for it? I mean it could maybe feel weird if you had a single "twitch" puzzle somewhere while everything else was "static", but on the other hand, if we're still arguing this with Operencia in mind, where exploration would possibly be real time and would involve real time puzzles from the get-go... I'm sorry, but this argument is circling so much I'm starting to find it hard not to get lost along the way.

Also, one more thing about Wizardry 8 - the puzzles and obstacles you find outside combat are completely detached from combat actions. It's always about pushing levers, using items, finding clues, hints and answers, never about bashing things or casting spells - as is the case for all the other Wizardries I've played too (6-8), and as far as I remember also all Might and Magic I've played (3-8). So... wouldn't you say that even in those games, where exploration is nominally turn-based, it is in fact a separate layer from the factually turn-based combat?

I already said that I don't find this game appealing to me. I detailed the reason.

You only detailed the reason after you were called out.


... excuse me?

As if on cue to prove my point, you appeal to a higher authority to try to draw attention from yourself, while simultaneously trying to smear your Opponent of the Day. It's not the first time you do this, and it won't be the last.

??? :lol:

Take your meds.
 

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Operencia: The Stolen Bard's Tale IV, er...Sun. :P

I'm just joking about that. No theft accusations this time, but it would be fun to come up with a conspiracy theory. Let's see...InXile had smaller studios outsourced to do Bard's Tale IV or add content/features/etc.. This developer happened to be one of them, but InXile went with their own production instead, allowing these guys to sell their game on their own. That's why it's so similar to Bard's Tale IV in such a short time. :)

I mean, there's got to be more to this relating to Bard's Tale IV, right? It just looks extremely similar, same engine, etc..
 

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Fucking hell, man, are you high? Are you aiming for tags?
I really don't get why you are so hellbent on trying to argue against simple facts...

You assume that in every conceivable scenario you know what you're up against before the battle even begins. Murphy has a law for that.
Well, there's a first time for everything. But once you walked into a tomb and found out that skeletons may require blunt weapons, what will you do each time before you walk into a tomb? Right.
Only in surprising situations you'd need to do the switching while in actual combat, in all other cases you do it as you see the enemy far away or before you even see them. And even then, you'd do the switch once at the start and that's that.
And areas in games usually feature the same or very similar kinds of enemies so there's simply no need to do that switching constantly.

There's a reason you aren't fighting groups of enemies, each of which would require you to constantly switch your weapons around. It would be annoying as hell and instead of being challenging because of the combat, it would be challenging because of the UI and inventory fumbling.

You can have a battle plan deeper than the Mariana trench at the ready, but it'll only work as long as both your troops and your enemies obey it. That's turn-based combat. Real-time combat requires that you not only make a plan, but that you also follow it through yourself, making any needed changes to the plan as they're called upon.
What you describe is just bad combat/encounter design. Which leads to the same in both turn-based and real-time combat.
When all actors always behave the same, without variance, without reacting to what you do.
New situations to dynamically react to can come in both styles, the difference being that turn-based allows much higher complexity because you have the time to think about that complexity.

Try imagining real-time Divinity: OS combat. It would be a clusterfuck, unplayable without pausing constantly. And needing to pause constantly is the surest sign that the game should have been turn-based to begin with.

Real-time combat (at least some renditions of it in blobbers) has another problem as well: You are forced to manually dodge enemy attacks or else you'll take more damage than you could possibly heal in real-time. That is action gameplay, the enemy telegraphs an incoming attack, you dance around it, then you attack and the cycle begins anew. Basically Dark Souls for snails. In contrast to Dark Souls however, it isn't difficult at all - because just like everything else, it cannot be as you have to do many other simple things at once.
Turn-based is just inherently closer to what RPGs are about: using your brain instead of your twitchy reflexes.

Now try to guess which school of thought is more closer to life itself, guess which one is more engrossing for the player, and guess which one is more popular in general.
You know people are out of arguments when they start citing popularity.
News flash: Most people have no interest in using their brains and just want to be sprinkled with light entertainment. Why do you think Fortnite is so famous?
If something is more popular, you can bet your ass it is usually also much simpler.
Not sure if you want that as a "pro" argument.

Who gives a fuck if a dungeon crawler (a dungeon crawler FFS!) is close to life? And even with real-time it isn't, not by a long shot. I rarely concur that much with Roxor, but yes, please, take your meds.
 

Mightmagic

Augur
Joined
Oct 29, 2013
Messages
118
:hmmm:

This too has gone to Epic exclusive:
And microsoft store.

Steam release is 2020.

Only gog has no release .
 
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