Our indie interview

[Human Shield]

The reason is production costs, not some cheesy videogame Rock Paper Scissors system.

So weight (and thus mobility) was never an issue?

Sorry VD, but no. Plate armour penalty in weight and mobility is almost negligible in combat. Two handed swords were also still light, 6 ft long Dopplehänders only got to 10 pounds.

The main problem with armor is restricted breathing and heat retention, and full helmets restricted hearing and vision.

And medieval swords were designed for armored and unarmored opponents. But no game has allowed half-swording like a anti-armor spear or hitting with the crossguard like a sledge hammer, which is what they actually did.

 

[sabishii]

The reason is production costs, not some cheesy videogame Rock Paper Scissors system.

So weight (and thus mobility) was never an issue?

Sorry VD, but no. Plate armour penalty in weight and mobility is almost negligible in combat. Two handed swords were also still light, 6 ft long Dopplehänders only got to 10 pounds.

The main problem with armor is restricted breathing and heat retention, and full helmets restricted hearing and vision.

And medieval swords were designed for armored and unarmored opponents. But no game has allowed half-swording like a anti-armor spear or hitting with the crossguard like a sledge hammer, which is what they actually did.

Well, in a typical adventuring RPG where there is a lot of traveling, then there could be some distinctions between heavy and light armor, such as fatigue in traveling, or being able to sneak around when necessary. You're right that plate armor doesn't have any significant weight and mobility penalties solely considering combat, though. So ideally the choice of armor could be a practicality issue: if I'm traveling long distance and expecting swampy terrain, then I may go for just wearing some light armor. On the other hand, if I'm preparing for a big battle or I'm on the march in an army, then I'd go with heavy armor.

Against unarmored opponents? Cutting weapons were far more effective and deadly. However, "blunt weapons like maces or war hammers could send concussive force through the plate armour resulting in injuries such as broken bones, organ haemorrhage and/or head trauma".

That doesn't discount that hammers and maces are still deadly, as was said. A well trained punch can knock someone out. I'd imagine that a hammer, which has more mass than a fist and has its center of mass farther from the axis, would do much more damage. I'd actually say that if the situation was unarmored combat, then any well-placed hit with a cutting OR a blunt weapon would be sufficiently deadly.

 

[The_Pope]

So weight (and thus mobility) was never an issue?

Yes, but the mobility/fatigue problems only justified using lighter armor (assuming you could afford the heavy stuff) after quality gunpowder weapons became common. At least, for a battlefield situation. I'd say walking around in full plate armor carrying a halberd at all times would be somewhat frowned upon. Kind of like how people don't go around in kevlar carrying assault rifles unless they have a very good reason to.

Against unarmored opponents? Cutting weapons were far more effective and deadly. However, "blunt weapons like maces or war hammers could send concussive force through the plate armour resulting in injuries such as broken bones, organ haemorrhage and/or head trauma".

Blunt weapons like maces or warhammers could send concussive force through skin, resulting in injuries such as broken bones, organ haemorrhage and/or head trauma. Of course, speed is an issue, but I'd put money on a soldier with plate armor and a warhammer kicking drizzts ass anyday. Assuming, of course, that it's a proper warhammer and not one of those unliftable fantasy abominations.

I don't follow. I'm not trying to "explain away something absurd" -- I thought the game nuance that I described addressed the problem really well. What is absurd about armor protecting you? Explain what your problem is, I don't get it.

Avoiding a hit and absorbing it are pretty different things. One opposes the accuracy of the attack, the other its damage.

Anyway, the big point is that I'd say using DnD was bad for planescape. If the devs had just let players focus on roleplaying, which the game did very well, rather than also having to worry about powergaming, which the game did poorly, it would have been much better. The issue for causal players isn't "is PST worth playing?", it's "is PST worth learning DnD for?"

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

I think a RPG combat system should not try to be a realistic combat simulator, but first of all a fun (and in this cas tactical) expereince, is secondly consistent within itself and its gameworld, and only then trys to remain somewhat realistic.

In that sense VD's approach seems good game design to me.

 

[aboyd]

I don't follow. I'm not trying to "explain away something absurd" -- I thought the game nuance that I described addressed the problem really well. What is absurd about armor protecting you? Explain what your problem is, I don't get it.

Avoiding a hit and absorbing it are pretty different things. One opposes the accuracy of the attack, the other its damage.

Yes, and the system I described appears to cater to that. So again I'm at a loss as to your reaction. However, I also note that my "bored" switch just flipped, and I stopped caring. So I'll just walk away from the topic puzzled, but with no curiosity to resolve it. Onward, to other topics!

 

[The_Pope]

In a simple system with one roll attacks that would be fine. But DnD has a damage roll - surely armor should affect that rather than the chance to hit?

 

[Human Shield]

I think a RPG combat system should not try to be a realistic combat simulator, but first of all a fun (and in this cas tactical) expereince, is secondly consistent within itself and its gameworld, and only then trys to remain somewhat realistic.

In that sense VD's approach seems good game design to me.

http://www.theriddleofsteel.net/whatis/

 

[Claw]

At the moment the Codex is focused mostly on the mainstream games, covering/talking about indies occasionally. We don't have reviews of Mount & Blade, the last 3-4 Spiderweb games, Lazarus, more outstanding rogue-likes like DF, etc. We don't present you the most outstanding indie developers, show what they did, why and how, etc. I don't blame anyone, obviously, just stating the obvious and showing the direction I'd like to go to.

Fine, and now: What/who is stopping you?

So weight (and thus mobility) was never an issue?

I'm a bit surprised you ask in light of your own approach in AoD. Sure, the Imperial Guard Armor does have a mobility limit of 8AP, but that doesn't seem very limiting. Last info I recall was Dex = AP, so 8 would be very decent while not catlike agility.
And this particular armor seems to be of the extremely heavy sort with a DR of 8.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

Fine, and now: What/who is stopping you?

I am. Pay attention.

 

[Vault Dweller]

At the moment the Codex is focused mostly on the mainstream games, covering/talking about indies occasionally. We don't have reviews of Mount & Blade, the last 3-4 Spiderweb games, Lazarus, more outstanding rogue-likes like DF, etc. We don't present you the most outstanding indie developers, show what they did, why and how, etc. I don't blame anyone, obviously, just stating the obvious and showing the direction I'd like to go to.

Fine, and now: What/who is stopping you?

Not enough time. Like I said, I'm not blaming anyone, but stating the obvious.

I'm a bit surprised you ask in light of your own approach in AoD. Sure, the Imperial Guard Armor does have a mobility limit of 8AP, but that doesn't seem very limiting. Last info I recall was Dex = AP, so 8 would be very decent while not catlike agility.
And this particular armor seems to be of the extremely heavy sort with a DR of 8.

AP=Dex+2, so the max is 12. That way a light fighter with max Dex would have a nice mobility advantage.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Fine, and now: What/who is stopping you?

I am. Pay attention.

Nobody is stopping me from reviewing Avernum 4 or interviewing the guy who made DF. I simply don't have a lot of time at the moment. I was simply explaining what I meant by the "indie hub".

 

[Nedrah]

Well, fortunately I came in time to read the original, unmolested interview. I was a little amused by the whole VD / v.d.w thing, but didn't think much of it.
Why do you, VD, refuse to acknowledge the point, that it's not interviewing yourself what a minority found "tacky", but just the doing so without mentioning the fact - the solution thus being not removing something but adding something.

However, obviously you're not willing to change it again. It's ok, while your parts made a nice addition to the piece, everyone interested in AOD can learn a lot more by just reading it's forum, anyways.


Now, about the whole

We don't have reviews of Mount & Blade, the last 3-4 Spiderweb games, Lazarus, more outstanding rogue-likes like DF, etc. We don't present you the most outstanding indie developers, show what they did, why and how, etc. I don't blame anyone, obviously, just stating the obvious and showing the direction I'd like to go to.

I love the idea of going in that direction with the codex.
In fact, I think focusing on the indy market is the only real way to stop the codex from further degrading into a meta-forum for lame threads on other boards or being a whining hub, where the guy with the most sarcastic e-dick wins.
It should have become clear by now that the mainstream is not going to deliver what we want out of our games for a long time to come.

With a focus on things like DF, Vogel's games or games like the ones appearing in the indy interview, the codex may gain one thing back that it right now only has for the codexer who's in it for the community - it might gain (back?) actual relevance in the somewhat grander scheme of things.

So, instead of rambling on about how the whole situation compares to what happens with music once big busines has taken over your favorite genre (hint: you may have to start looking at what's coming out of the garages instead of what the big labels throw at you), what I'm trying to say is this:

I fully support the idea of switching the prioritys that indie and mainstream have at the codex at this time. I'd actually be willing to help - unfortunately my english and possibly my understanding of the actual scene and even games may not be as refined as I'd like both of them to be.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Why do you, VD, refuse to acknowledge the point, that it's not interviewing yourself what a minority found "tacky", but just the doing so without mentioning the fact - the solution thus being not removing something but adding something.

Is it a fact? I would post quotes showing a different point of view, but I think it's time to kill this debate.

In fact, I think focusing on the indy market is the only real way to stop the codex from further degrading into a meta-forum for lame threads on other boards or being a whining hub, where the guy with the most sarcastic e-dick wins.

Yep. I absolutely agree with you.

 

[Nedrah]

Is it a fact? I would post quotes showing a different point of view, but I think it's time to kill this debate.

Yes, as unfortunate as the outcome may be for everyone involved.


So, seeing how it's merely a lack of time that prevents you from pulling through with your ideas of covering things like DF and M&B amongst others - are you thinking about a solution?

 

[The_Pope]

For what it's worth I liked having all 4 sets of answers. Just add a line in the introduction paragraph saying "Seeing as I'm making an independent game, I answered my own questions under the ingenious alias of Vince D Weller."

 

[Vault Dweller]

The lack of time is the biggest obstacle. My official workload has doubled (we've finally killed a competitor and now we are restructuring to absorb their clients and offer new services), what's left of my time is taken by AoD. If the situation at work improves (when the crazy time is finally over) then I can easily spend a few hours a day contributing to the indie hub idea.

 

[Elhoim]

The funny thing is that VD really DID make clear that he was one of them:

I invited Jason Compton (The Broken Hourglass), Thomas Riegsecker (Eschalon: Book I), and Steven Peeler (Depths of Peril) to talk about what we do, how, and why.

I won´t bother to explain it. Use some logical tought.

 

[PrzeSzkoda]

Heh, wanted to say the same thing Elohim did, but he beat me to it.

Really, now I feel cheated not because the interviewer and an interviewee are the same person, but because the newspost promises something the article doesn't offer.

Put those answers somewhere, please, or you'll get a taste of my angrycuntdom.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

If that is supposed to be a nab at me, then I suggest you go read my first two posts in this thread again.

 

[Elhoim]

Nope, it was not a nab at you.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

I wish you just had done what I requested, rather that being childish, as you are now (in taking the AoD-bits out, not by this exact reply).

One more time, either I did something wrong or I didn't. If I didn't, no actions are required. If I did, there is only one way to fix it.

That's bullshit and you know it because by that logic, we should delete the AoD forum (after all, we can't fairly comment on a game who's forums we host, can we?). You want me to do that or shall you? At worst this is a conflict of interest and, if you really are a Manager like you seem to pretend, you'd know that there is no one single way to deal with a conflict of interest. Hell, you could've read the wikipedia article about them:

• # 5 Ways to mitigate conflicts of interests
  * 5.1 Removal
  * 5.2 Disclosure
  * 5.3 Recusal
  * 5.4 Third-party evaluations
  * 5.5 Codes of ethics

That's five, count them, five ways to deal with this. Not a magical "one". In this case, we've got plenty of third party evaluations telling you what should've happened, you tried to recuse yourself (then didn't, then did, flip flopping around like you do on these issues) and it was about something that had already been disclosed. Instead, you pull a Rex and decide to ignore everyone else and follow your own fantasy.

Further changing it could have shown that you didn't take all of this personally, and are able to handle some constructive criticism...

I am. Which is why I removed the AoD related stuff.

Never underestimate a human being's ability for denial.

You corrected it in the worst possible manner.

In your opinion. Once again, we disagree.

I clearly stated that I see no problem in interviewing yourself, as long as that message get through.

You pointed out a problem and suggested a solution. Eventually I had to accept that there is a problem, but I chose a different solution, the one that fixed the problem better, in my opinion.

What was that stuff you said about always being right and how you, allegedly, aren't one of those people...?

I didn't see how adding a single paragraph would fix the problem.

Ah, but that is what I firmly believe it would have. Ask in the admin-forum again, if you must.

For the record, every other Codex admin agreed that only a disclaimer was necessary. Vault Dweller chose to ignore the Codex staff and listen to someone who's not involved in running the Codex. VD decided to ignore the other admins and pull a Rex.

Removing the answers is IMHO much more drastic then adding a disclaimer.

Because adding a disclaimer doesn't solve the problem. At all. Again, if the problem is "OMG! I interviewed myself! The shame!", then no "Hey guys! Guess what? I done interviewed meself!" clarification will fix it. Thus, removing questionable content is the only way to fix the problem.

You're misinterpreting the problem. Interviewing yourself was never the problem. Interviewing yourself and pretending you weren't was the only issue. All you had to do was stop pretending you're this "Vince D Weller" guy or make it clear that Vince D Weller is actually you.

This was not about opinions, this was about me answering my own questions, which some people found, well, questionable and reflecting poorly on the site.

Well the rest of the staff think you being a douche about it all reflects poorly on the site. Can you delete yourself now so that we don't continue to look bad? Oh and remove all your posts too. Just deleting your account leaves them behind.

Why do you, VD, refuse to acknowledge the point, that it's not interviewing yourself what a minority found "tacky", but just the doing so without mentioning the fact - the solution thus being not removing something but adding something.

Is it a fact? I would post quotes showing a different point of view

By all means, please do. I know I'd like to see the reason for you FLIP FLOPPING.

Before:

I thought about it, but decided that I don't give a fuck.

After:

Since some objections have been raised, I removed anything related to AoD from the interview. My apologies to those who may have been offended.

What happened to not giving a fuck?

Oh and if anyone can pull out the original from their cache or from snippits that have been quoted elsewhere, it'd be much appreiated. I'll even edit the article and add it back in. Then edit the code so VD can't modify it again if I have to.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Why do you, VD, refuse to acknowledge the point, that it's not interviewing yourself what a minority found "tacky", but just the doing so without mentioning the fact - the solution thus being not removing something but adding something.

Is it a fact? I would post quotes showing a different point of view

By all means, please do. I know I'd like to see the reason for you FLIP FLOPPING.

You interviewed yourself?
...
It is a bit shady to interview one self when you obviously have commercial interests, and personal gain from this.
...
Now if we take this one step further: since you published this stuff, what guarantee do we have that you're not making this look better for your behalf?
...
The point/harm is that interviewing yourself puts a bad taste in readers' mouths, especially if they find this out afterwards. It looks shady. My first reaction was the same as LCJr's ("You interviewed yourself?"). Now if I wasn't a regular here, I'd think "what a douchebag" and probably not bother coming back if this was my first experience with the site. While the Codex doesn't exist to cater to everyone's needs, it also doesn't need to chase away reasonable readers who expect some degree of professionalism when it comes to things like interviews and reviews. Humor jokes are one thing, self-interviews are another.
...
...pimping your own stuff in what should be a discussion of alternative, less well known independent titles is cheesy and unprofessional, especially in the context it was done. By itself, it would have been somewhat acceptable, but throwing it in with legitimate interviews was uncalled for.

Before:

I thought about it, but decided that I don't give a fuck.

After:

Since some objections have been raised, I removed anything related to AoD from the interview. My apologies to those who may have been offended.

What happened to not giving a fuck?

I still don't give a fuck, but baby arm does, and his opinion matters to me. I thought I explained it quite a few times already.

Oh and if anyone can pull out the original from their cache...

For you? Anything. http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:tw4 ... 3Fid%3D143]

Then edit the code so VD can't modify it again if I have to.

I'm done with the article.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Whoa, you've added three more chapters to your post.

That's bullshit and you know it because by that logic, we should delete the AoD forum (after all, we can't fairly comment on a game who's forums we host, can we?). You want me to do that or shall you?

First, AoD is not the first game to have forums here. Second, if you feel that there is a conflict of interests here, I can either move the forum to my site and step down as an admin. Without any hard feelins.

At worst this is a conflict of interest and, if you really are a Manager like you seem to pretend...

I like to role-play.

... you'd know that there is no one single way to deal with a conflict of interest.

Conflicts of interests aint my specialty. I'm a sales & marketing guy.

That's five, count them, five ways to deal with this. Not a magical "one". In this case, we've got plenty of third party evaluations telling you what should've happened, you tried to recuse yourself (then didn't, then did, flip flopping around like you do on these issues) and it was about something that had already been disclosed. Instead, you pull a Rex and decide to ignore everyone else and follow your own fantasy.

If I ignored everyone, I wouldn't have changed the article. I thought that was clear, no?

Never underestimate a human being's ability for denial.

Whatever floats your boat.

What was that stuff you said about always being right and how you, allegedly, aren't one of those people...?

I didn't say that I was right, I said that I did what I *thought* was right. I'm sure you can tell the difference.

For the record, every other Codex admin agreed that only a disclaimer was necessary. Vault Dweller chose to ignore the Codex staff and listen to someone who's not involved in running the Codex. VD decided to ignore the other admins and pull a Rex.

Then take away my admin powers and let's be done with it. I would have listened to two people: Saint or baby arm. Why? Because they posted enough stuff to feel when something isn't right. I like other admins, you guys are a great bunch, but you don't post on a regular basis. I'm not blaming anyone, just explaining why I listened to baby arm and not to Fez or Calis.

You're misinterpreting the problem. Interviewing yourself was never the problem. Interviewing yourself and pretending you weren't was the only issue. All you had to do was stop pretending you're this "Vince D Weller" guy or make it clear that Vince D Weller is actually you.

Pretending? You've gotta be kidding me.

Well the rest of the staff think you being a douche about it all reflects poorly on the site. Can you delete yourself now so that we don't continue to look bad? Oh and remove all your posts too. Just deleting your account leaves them behind.

The honor is yours.

 

[Volourn]

OMFG The Codex is collasping! Stop the nonsense, everyone!

 

[Mr Happy]

no!