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KickStarter Pantheon - (Brad "EQ" McQuaid's new MMO)

Aenra

Guest
Been having a look on their forums, i noticed their 'pledge' packages appear to preclude any gametime. Considering how many months said system's been up and running, i suppose it's no error.
Not sure i like the implications of that.. even the dodgiest private donation systems (non - KS) include gametime, if not lifetime for the higher tiers.
 

Xenich

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Been having a look on their forums, i noticed their 'pledge' packages appear to preclude any gametime. Considering how many months said system's been up and running, i suppose it's no error.
Not sure i like the implications of that.. even the dodgiest private donation systems (non - KS) include gametime, if not lifetime for the higher tiers.

Honestly, I am not sure, they used to apply to game time. I don't sub, so I haven't bothered to look into it past that. I hope they aren't stupid enough to offer lifetime subs, worst mistake many games did. Sure, it makes your first year look great in sales, but after that you lose a large sub base.

I look at it like this. If you can't keep people subbed to your game, then your content isn't worth playing.

What I like about their pay wall is that it keeps out the trash who have no interest in the game anyway. That way the forums are littered with trolls mouthing off about how the game will fail or how if they don't implement their precious opinion, the game will tank. Besides, 5 bucks a month isn't much if one is really interested in having their voice heard in the forums.
 

Aenra

Guest
Am not talking about the monthly 5/10$ sub thing, it being indeed just for a forum access :)
[which you will excuse my saying is quite horrid, but anyway, nvm that]

Am talking about pledges. See my post again. Proper, 3digit and upwards pledges.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/join/pledge/
Unless in your mind they too should come sans any gametime? To me, i don't know, can be indicative of certain scenarios. Unless, hence my first post, i'm missing something.
 

Xenich

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Well, I guess they changed it, not sure, did you search the forums to see if anyone asked questions on this?

Personally, I really don't care. I have no real opinion about it. Sure, it would be cool if it applied to your game time, but if it doesn't /shrug.

I don't sub, so I don't really care.
 

Aenra

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might be i'm on a retarded mode and i missed it, or that the forum section wherein it's asked is locked to me..but no info, no
 

Xenich

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Well, they frequent the Pantheon forums on MMORPG.com as well, I am sure Kilsin could answer that question there if you were to ask.
 

Xenich

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Well, here is an interview MMORPG.com did with Brad McQuaid and Chris Perkins.

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/...nterview-with-Brad-McQuaid-Chris-Perkins.html

However, they want players to stay together. They want them to be able to log out of large dungeons when needed and come back and join their friends later. Years ago you had to run through the dungeon to get to you friends. Now, Pantheon will allow you to port and meet with them no matter where they are. This simple mechanic helps loads with keeping up the social aspects of the game.

/facepalm

Yeah, umm.... FFS Brad, where do you even remotely see this as a good thing? What next? Instant travel? Dungeon Finders? I mean, it is really going to be a hardcore game right? I mean... totally old school kicking it!

I will defend against bullshit gossip about things that have no bearing on game play, but this? Fuck no. They start adding this shit and they can take their "old school" game and shove it right up their "mainstream" ass.

I am sick of hearing people say that people don't have time to play games, that they have "real lives" and "jobs". For the love of sanity, most of the people I played with back in EQ were working professionals, had families, etc... We made time as we could and it made that time when we did have it all the more awesome. FFS my IT director played EQ as well, so this whole BS claim about people having jobs these days, completely idiotic. Back then, most of the people who played games were academics, tech professionals, etc... Now all of a sudden burger cooks and janitors are playing and we hear about all this lack of time because they are so "busy" in their lives. If you can't work out some time to play, then don't play the fucking game. /boggle
 

Xenich

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Well, Brad was hella quick on clarifying that article. They went back and adjusted it to say:

Pantheon will have meaningful travel -- players will need to travel to new areas and face the dangers that come with such a journey. That said, there will be spells like EQ's Call of the Hero, which summons an ally to your side if he or she is grouped with you. There will also be a system similar to Vanguard's Caravans, where a player can log out in a group and then log back in and still be with the group, even if that group has moved. There will also be additional ways to help groups come together and stay together. But it's also important to note that this doesn't mean people will be able to travel ad hoc, anywhere in the world, at a whim, especially if they haven't traveled there by foot or horse at least once (e.g. players will need to unlock regions by traveling there).
 

Aenra

Guest
Could be pure damage control .. hold your horses. Although emphasis on 'could be' as i cannot think of a more RETARDED, fucking, utterly useless bunch of "journalists" hacks than the MMORPG.com staff.
We will know soon enough either way, this is too central a tenet and as such we should have some facts come the first Alpha.
 

Xenich

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Could be pure damage control .. hold your horses. Although emphasis on 'could be' as i cannot think of a more RETARDED, fucking, utterly useless bunch of "journalists" hacks than the MMORPG.com staff.
We will know soon enough either way, this is too central a tenet and as such we should have some facts come the first Alpha.

That is what worries me. Also, his mention of the caravan system bothers me as well. Part of the experience of EQ was the difficulty that was in getting in and out of some dungeons. In fact, I loved how hard some dungeons were as a crack team could get first shot at the deep camps while the lower skilled players went for easier targets. This caravan system could promote some major abuses. In Vanguard, it allowed you the option of moving with the group when you logged back on (if they moved to a new area) so you could continue to group with them. Problem is, all it takes to make a caravan is to form a group and assign a leader, then, you log off and after 3 hours when you log back on you get that option to move. Now think on that. Assign a stealth/invis/FD class as caravan leader for the next nights session, then have the leader log on and run to the camp that you want. Have the others log on and get any camp you want without the risk or effort to fight to it.

Now you might be saying, well... a mage could invis to an area and CoH people to them. Sure... but many dungeons had "see invis" mobs AND invis had an unknown time limit, so that wouldn't always work as some mobs could see you and sometimes your invis would drop and you would be toast. With the Caravans, you can get a FD class to run into the camp with no effort. This is a problem when you have contested content. It was hard enough on peak times to find a premium camp spot, with these casual systems, it will only complicate things.

I also dislike his comments about fast travel and having to have been there "at least once". Problem is, that is just Planes of Power with a first time visit requirement. Heck, even WoW has that. The issue is not having to visit a place first that makes fast travel a problem, it is being able to do it without some requirement in the first place. That is, fast travel with a requirement of a class to do the porting and there being specific requirements for that class to obtain those ports (level, drop, etc...) is one thing, but allowing anyone to travel is what killed EQ with Planes of Power. All these classes had unique spells for porting, fast run speed, stealth/invis through dangerous areas, etc... faction gated areas, etc... and they invalidate all that with allowing everyone to fast travel around.

I think all these subtle things are what made EQ the wonder it was. Time will tell. /shrug
 

Aenra

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Won't disagree with either part, it is besides a conversation we've had before. If you may recall, i did repeatedly hint when the topic was reached that you need to 'accommodate' your expectations with a good touch of what today's needs and criteria entail.
While i hope i end up wrong, the more it is investor money he's getting, the more we will be seeing hints of a varied approach to what once was promised. Nature of the beast :)

Again, just in case you're triggered, i repeat, i hope i end up wrong. Haven't played an MMO for .. well, ages really.

edit: since VG went down? Fuck all.. been hoping for Project Gorgon, Citadel of Sorcery, Pantheon. That's it. Should have added SotA as well, but i already know they don't "want" me. Hell, they sure don't need me either ^^
 

Norfleet

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However, they want players to stay together. They want them to be able to log out of large dungeons when needed and come back and join their friends later. Years ago you had to run through the dungeon to get to you friends. Now, Pantheon will allow you to port and meet with them no matter where they are. This simple mechanic helps loads with keeping up the social aspects of the game.
/facepalm

Yeah, umm.... FFS Brad, where do you even remotely see this as a good thing? What next? Instant travel? Dungeon Finders? I mean, it is really going to be a hardcore game right? I mean... totally old school kicking it!
Hah, yes, there's a reason why this didn't exist for free in the old days: Because in every game that has this feature, I abuse the fuck out of it. That may as WELL give instant travel at that rate, because I'd end up having a bunch of "friends", who mostly just exist to allow me to get to where they are...
 

Xenich

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Won't disagree with either part, it is besides a conversation we've had before. If you may recall, i did repeatedly hint when the topic was reached that you need to 'accommodate' your expectations with a good touch of what today's needs and criteria entail.
While i hope i end up wrong, the more it is investor money he's getting, the more we will be seeing hints of a varied approach to what once was promised. Nature of the beast :)

Again, just in case you're triggered, i repeat, i hope i end up wrong. Haven't played an MMO for .. well, ages really.

edit: since VG went down? Fuck all.. been hoping for Project Gorgon, Citadel of Sorcery, Pantheon. That's it. Should have added SotA as well, but i already know they don't "want" me. Hell, they sure don't need me either ^^

No need to act like that, as much as you try to imply it, I am not a fanboy of this game. I liked EQ and I liked Vanguard and I hate the fact there are no old school games out there. I "hope" for this one and this has always been my worry from the start. I just don't like getting into the speculation over all the personal drama concerning Brad's past as it makes no difference to the game mechanics I am interested in.

Anyway, many of the points I made are a concern of mine and so far Brad has given me a default PC answer to the concerns, so until I see more... it really is up in the air, though it really fucking perturbs me.

By the way, if you want to see "fanboy", go over and read one of the posts on MMORPG.com where some "fanboy" starts whining about being critical of the game at this stage. That is pathetic and that is what leads to these games fucking the player base over. I have no issues with putting Brad and Co's feet to the fire if they start fucking up. If there is any hope to this game being even remotely old school, people are going to need to not sugar coat shit and corner them on this type of shit.


Edit:

Oh, and here is a possible future alternative:

http://vgoemulator.net/

It is a Vanguard emulator, done by a guy who has a lot of experience with the EQ emulator projects. So far, he has the world up and running solid. In fact, from what I have been reading, the game runs smoother than Vanguard live ever did. I think they are doing combat systems now, so the game is moving along. It will still take a while before it becomes playable at any practical level, but it is a secondary hope if Pantheon turns out to be shit.
 
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Aenra

Guest
I was not acting man, if i got to something to say, you should know me by now, i spit it out :)
When i say "i really hope i'm wrong", i mean it. I even typed it twice so you'd be sure to comprehend it was not an attempt at irony ..bah..

As far as the VG emu goes..by the time it will be at VG levels is (ie 'just' the original VG bugs), i will be too old to give a damn about about anything first person, lol. Usually at least, the amount of years emulators entail? Coupled with the inescapable team breakups, community splits and reforms, let alone wear of time itself? Let us just say i've been burned out already from other equally promising attempts.
Big minus on this title in specific? In case you are unaware, you will not believe this but it is a fact, VG had no internal version control over its database*. As you read it..all up in the air..Even if you splice the lot of it, it won't be there for you to find. So barring somehow an unlikely event where "someone" passes you over the (actual btw) handwritten notes? Because that's how VG functioned, i swear.. tough project to put it kindly.

*Steve Danuser on the issue:
"Lack of version control meant you had to hunt through screen shots or ask players what an item used to be like before it got unintentionally nerfed. There were a lot of days when I would literally sit with my head in my hands, flummoxed at how some feature or another could possibly have been implemented in such a convoluted way"

As taken from his own blog, here:
http://www.mobhunter.com/?p=822

All in all, i wouldn't hold too much hope i'm afraid :negative:
 
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Xenich

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I was not acting man, if i got to something to say, you should know me by now, i spit it out :)
When i say "i really hope i'm wrong", i mean it. I even typed it twice so you'd be sure to comprehend it was not an attempt at irony ..bah..

As far as the VG emu goes..by the time it will be at VG levels is (ie 'just' the original VG bugs), i will be too old to give a damn about about anything first person, lol. Usually at least, the amount of years emulators entail? Coupled with the inescapable team breakups, community splits and reforms, let alone wear of time itself? Let us just say i've been burned out already from other equally promising attempts.
Big minus on this title in specific? In case you are unaware, you will not believe this but it is a fact, VG had no internal version control over its database*. As you read it..all up in the air..Even if you splice the lot of it, it won't be there for you to find. So barring somehow an unlikely event where "someone" passes you over the (actual btw) handwritten notes? Because that's how VG functioned, i swear.. tough project to put it kindly.

*Steve Danuser on the issue:
"Lack of version control meant you had to hunt through screen shots or ask players what an item used to be like before it got unintentionally nerfed. There were a lot of days when I would literally sit with my head in my hands, flummoxed at how some feature or another could possibly have been implemented in such a convoluted way"

As taken from his own blog, here:
http://www.mobhunter.com/?p=822

All in all, i wouldn't hold too much hope i'm afraid :negative:

I meant, acting like I am going to go off like some idiot fanboy in defense of the game because you gave an opinion that does not favor it (ie the triggered comment).

As for the emulator, one of the benefits of that type of project is that they write the server/database from scratch, so they can have more stable and cleaner product than live. I am not overly concerned about it though. I have played some emulators over the years and have been able to get out of them what I wanted. Winters Roar was great, though now known as Shard of Dalaya it is a bit... too mainstream for my tastes (they dumbed down a lot of the mechanics and most of the player base had very little experience with EQ outside of being a little kid).

In the end, all I can do is hope Pantheon does not confirm my fears. If it does, well.. at least I can put to rest the expectation of any old school MMO (and games in general it appears) and move off to some other hobby that isn't designed for the lazy and inept.
 

Aenra

Guest
To be honest, it is the only reason i bother as much as i do. Barring those three (or four if i went asking for disappointment) titles mentioned .. just doesn't look good for the future. Nor are there any -other- "old school" devs left anyway, lol, so who's gonna make them..

Had my good years at least, so that's something, yeah :)
 

KevinV12000

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I got the VG emulator up and running and ran around my old haunts, and things were very good, very stable, except that some NPCs were double- or triple-spawned, with each on top of each other. Of course, there is no interaction or quests, or anything really except to site see, but it was DAMN good to log in again.
 

Aenra

Guest
Thought i shouldn't reply at first, but fuck it..

Do keep in mind that what you describe is, compared to everything else, the easiest (which is also why it's the first) step any, but any emu team has to take. If it means anything but absolutely fuck all to you, you're in for some disappointment. Or decades of waiting, your choice of wording may vary.
Do also note that historically/empirically speaking, what you see now is the fruit of an enthusiasm that is destined to wane and disperse in the four winds. Am almost willing to bet how, five years from now, there will be two or three VG emu teams, working separately. Cores not shared between them, etc. Ten years later, no one will be left to give a fuck. You will have a ghost server, which is playable fine for mainstream MMOs, but not for this one.
 

Xenich

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Thought i shouldn't reply at first, but fuck it..

Do keep in mind that what you describe is, compared to everything else, the easiest (which is also why it's the first) step any, but any emu team has to take. If it means anything but absolutely fuck all to you, you're in for some disappointment. Or decades of waiting, your choice of wording may vary.
Do also note that historically/empirically speaking, what you see now is the fruit of an enthusiasm that is destined to wane and disperse in the four winds. Am almost willing to bet how, five years from now, there will be two or three VG emu teams, working separately. Cores not shared between them, etc. Ten years later, no one will be left to give a fuck. You will have a ghost server, which is playable fine for mainstream MMOs, but not for this one.

EQ emulators were vast when EQ was only a few years old. Winters Roar was a fully running emulator and complete with customized content only 5 years after EQ was released and it was created by a single guy. I am not saying this Vanguard Emu is guaranteed, but they continue to make progress and it is not from some random guy, rather it is from someone who has a lot of experience with seeing emulators to release.

They have been slow going, but they have made steady progress. Since they began a year or so ago, they have built a server engine that you see today. It is still very early in its development, but its making progress. /shrug

Edit:

One other thing, Winters Roar (EQ Emu) has been around for over 10 years, at its peak it had 3-4k players on it, went through a SoE Cease and desist where they had to change the games content and their name (to Shards of Dalaya) and to this day it still has anywhere from 50-100+ players on.

So it isn't a lost cause.
 
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Aenra

Guest
Weird, their site appears to be down for me. No matter which page i try visit, i'm re-directed to this:
http://pantheonmmo.com/cgi-sys/suspendedpage.cgi

There's a header stating:
Account Suspended
This Account Has Been Suspended

Obvious explanation should be out, as they have already redone their website. Anyone else getting this?
 

Aenra

Guest
Brad was on mmorpg.com again. Quoting:
(wall of text warning for our ADHD enthusiasts)

The goal right now is to make the core foundation of the game as solid as possible. The core of the game is basic MMO functionality and mechanics, much of which is based on what are now referred to as 'old school' MMOs, like EQ, UO, DAoC, etc. Combat is the big focus. We've implemented the core classes and we've given them abilities (spells, stances, prayers, actions, etc.). We've created items and loot for levels 1-10. We've got dungeons and outdoor zones populated with encounters for that level range. We have basic mob AI in -- we can make an NPC a wizard and he will act a certain way, and use certain spells, or a warrior, etc. Basic NPC behaviors. We're focused on distances, when mobs aggro you, how long they'll follow you. We're focused on the core UI -- does the game feel responsive, the general UI intuitive? How long does a basic battle last? Does it feel right, or too short or too long? How difficult is soloing at lower levels, and then what happens if you bring friends? Situational awareness -- do you have to pay attention to what is going on around you during combat? Do you have to worry about adds? Can you stay in first person and focus on the battle, or do you need to make sure you don't wipe because you weren't paying attention and allowed other wandering and aggro mobs to get too near?

And then, ultimately, with all of this going on, is the basic game fun? I realize that this may seem like a 'duh', but it's really quite important. MMOs are complex and there's a lot going on, things you have to watch and keep track of, the role you are playing in a group, how you are equipped, etc. We have enough of the core game in now where we can holistically consider how all of these variables and formulas are coming together and discuss if it feels right, if it plays like we wanted it to play, and is it all fun?

The basic approach is what I call the 'skyscraper' approach. When you build a skyscraper, you first make sure you have a solid and deep foundation. Then when you are building upwards, adding on new stories, you don't have to worry about the structure crumbling around itself. This is what we are focused on now. We have a couple of outdoor zones, a couple of dungeons, and a city. We have content in for these core classes so you can level up to around 10. Items work, stats mean something, skills go up through use, core abilities/spells are there, grouping works, communication works. Auto-attack and tab targeting work, with offensive and defensive targets. Spells can be learned and memmed. There's not a lot of unique, Pantheon-specific, untried and inventive functionality yet, and that's by design. We're also not spending a ton of time on the visuals being fully fleshed out -- we don't need a lot of different animations, or player character models, or spell effects. All of that is certainly important, but it doesn't gate us from testing and establishing the fundamentals of MMO gameplay.

Some simple quests are being put in, but nothing too elaborate. Abilities and spells are mostly in families that you see in just about every MMO. The core classes are distinct so we can test interdependence -- that is fundamental.

Anyway, we basically have a playable old-school MMO. Everything fundamental to how an MMO of this style is pretty much in place. We also have temporary zones where we can quickly test combat (without having to wander about a huge outdoor zone), and we are logging combat messages with a lot of detail, so we can see the effects of a spell, or attributes or skills going up, or using one weapon vs another. The goal, like I've said, is to make sure we have a solid foundation that is also fun. The bells and whistles aren't necessarily there, but some polish is important (again, like in areas of the UI, does it feel responsive, does timing work and matter). A lot of it is objective, but some is subjective. But the ultimate goal is to establish this solid, core foundation so that when we build on it, increase the level range, put in the rest of the classes, create more varied zones, make more sophisticated NPC behavior, and start adding some of the more unique and untried Pantheon-specific game mechanics, we don't do something that brings the whole game down like a house of cards. We'll be able to tweak and tune things without breaking a ton of other aspects. We'll be able to change or even remove game mechanics and features without breaking the core of the game.

And when we do add and extend the core, we do it very modularly, one building block at a time. We don't put in complicated features and mechanics as detailed and complex as we hope to ship with all at once. One step at a time, building on what is already there, extending and adding. It's all part of an MMO development philosophy that I and others have developed over the last 15+ years. We've seen a lot of approaches that work, and probably more that don't work. We've seen MMOs developed where a ton of time and effort has been put into a system, but when that system is finally placed into the context of the rest of the game, it doesn't fit, or doesn't have the expected result. We've seen so much time, effort, and money wasted by not mitigating risk and approaching development very methodically. We've seen what feature creep can do. We've seen what waiting to put in basic systems until later can do. We've made probably more mistakes than done things right. And with Pantheon, keeping a lean and mean team going, and not having a huge budget, and not trying to appeal to everyone but making sure those we are targeting truly love the game, all of this stuff is important, even essential.

So that's where we're at. I'm really happy with how much we've accomplished with so few people and in such a short amount of time. We do make mistakes, but rarely repeat old mistakes. We 'fail forward' if at all possible. We're leveraging our experience making these very complex games (there are many genres of games that are far easier to create) and trying to work both hard *and* smart.

Next we'll start building on this foundation, increasing the levels, building more content and zones, implementing the rest of the classes, and start modularly adding in the more complex systems, the newer and more exciting features, etc. Once we have enough content and functionality in place that we can't test it all ourselves, then we'll bring in our pre-alpha testers, and then after that our alpha testers. Then once we have more than a solid MMO foundation but actually a specific MMO called Pantheon, we'll start beta testing. Then we'll start to see areas that need to be tweaked, or systems that could be made better, or even ideas that don't pan out at all, and be able to address them without the game crumbling down around us. Early beta is where you start to address issues and tweak and balance things that just were not apparent with a much smaller group of testers. Later beta is where you start stress testing server load and look for problems that only arise when you have a game being played by roughly the same number of players you expect to be in the world after launch.

Anyway, I'll stop here. I've touched on a lot of things, a lot of philosophy behind how to build MMOs, how to avoid big mistakes, how to be efficient, how to know what to worry about now and what can be dealt with later. It's hard to make a single post that summarizes where we are at now and where we're headed, because it's all built on years and even decades of experience doing this sort of thing, seeing what works and what doesn't. But I tried to summarize it the best I could. Hopefully some of this makes some sense, and at the very least answers your question as to where the game is at now.

As taken from http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/comment/6779800/#Comment_6779800

Ever the cynic, i do have to start by reminding myself this is a person that 'knows' his audience, what they need to hear, where their fears lie, and as such what and how he needs to address in regard to them. Neither the first nor the last lead dev possessing said awareness but ultimately failing to amount to anything more.
Now that aside, i got (yet) no reason to doubt any of the above, far as implementation goes. It does seem as if i will eventually need to eat my hat after all ^^

I remain very but very skeptical in so far as the actual gameplay experience is concerned.
- Got no reason (from what is shown/promised) to view this project as one that selectively nits and picks between 'old school' (in terms of mentality/design philosdophy) and 'modern' (in terms of QL features/diversification/audience awareness*) and i am still convinced that if so, it will ultimately be the game's downfall. I told myself i liked walking 30 minutes to school every day, but if i could get me a car back then, would i still have said "walking is better"?
- The 'fanboys' currently acting as its current 'fan base' seem as blind-folded as humanly possible. They both want and only recognise EQI as a 'proper' MMO. Even Vanguard is not near their archetype. I find this important, as it is them that will have the first comment, them that will be the first to apply pressure/demands.

*Most of these people 'think' they know what they want. Presumptuous as it may sound, i believe they actually do not. When they come face to face with reality, some will realise that twenty odd years later, neither their mental stamina nor their physical one is what it used to be. And that the game being as it is, there will be aspects of it that actually represent a hindrance rather than a "fun" factor to them.
Most of these people, because at age 40 and 50 it is oh so hard to say "i was wrong", are incapable of even considering the above and need to actually experience it, albeit it will by then be too late. A very recent example is VG going F2P. Thousands of people "begging" for it (as if the fucking sub was an obstacle) and when it did go F2P? They never came back, or did but left again. The crash with reality was unexpected, but very real nonetheless. They are the same people crying for 'hardcore' now. Again. It is only the title that's different. Except they couldn't even handle VG.
 
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Xenich

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2,104
I can only speak for myself, I know what I want because I have been on the other side of the fence of the issue. That is, I have developed software and had to deal with the client who fumbled around with "wants" but didn't realize what they really needed. I also am one of those old guys who can admit when I am wrong. You don't get anywhere in the tech world if you can't do that anyway as you can never learn anything new if you think you know it all.

That said, I have played games of this nature for over 20 years. I experienced all types of systems, all types of implementations. I have changed my mind over the years because of it. You see, when I left EQ, I thought a lot of EQs designs were bad, that they were the problem. It took 20 years of experiencing the handout style of dumbed down "convenience" and the complete lack of fear, feeling, and accomplishment in those games to make me realize what I lost. I then tested this perspective by going back to the private servers of EQ and playing it like I used to. I can say without a doubt that this is what I want, it is what I require, it is what I enjoy. It is not some age addled nostalgia that ignored all the bad, it is the bad I missed because without that bad, the good meant nothing, that is why I don't play MMOs anymore, because they mean nothing, they are pointless wastes of time catering to a generation I have nothing in common with or any respect for.

So, I know what I want, I know exactly what it is.
 

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