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KickStarter Pantheon - (Brad "EQ" McQuaid's new MMO)

Discussion in 'MMO(RP)G / Online Discussion' started by Alchemist, Jan 14, 2014.

  1. Ranselknulf Arcane Patron

    Ranselknulf
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    I don't really expect anything great from MMO's anymore. I don't think the environment exists for a decent MMO to be developed and also be played by people worth interacting with. Half the time interacting with people in these MMO's is worse than playing a solo game. Sure there is the trolling game but that gets boring if you do it too much.

    Even if a MMO with the perfect design and game play for my tastes was released I doubt it would be fun to play for long.. unless it happened to be not that popular. But realistically, what game company is going to make a niche MMO that is decent.
     
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  2. Great Deceiver Arcane

    Great Deceiver
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    I don't think SoE would take him up on this game at all. In fact, he probably already tried to pitch it, since he was back at SoE in 2013, on the EQ1 team (probably doing some very minor, token work - https://forums.station.sony.com/eq/index.php?threads/12-years-i-feel-so-old.4319/)

    You can't possibly take this guy seriously. He's talking about making a full-fledged MMO with part-time unpaid outsourced developers on Unity. Must be pretty desperate for some cash...
     
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  3. Ranselknulf Arcane Patron

    Ranselknulf
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    I think it's possible for unpaid developers to make a mmo game.

    Although I feel sorry for any developer working on this project for free and expecting to earn something from it at some point. Brad is gonna take all their work and monetize it. The best a majority of the developers can hope for is a credit somewhere or a thank you letter.

    Which isn't a bad thing in of itself, but game developers always seem to expect great success then are "surprised" when it doesn't come and a company lays off all their workers. I'm sure more experienced game developers already know this from experience, but the type of developers who are going to work on Brad's project are probably inexperienced. If they are expecting money at some point they better be getting prepared for their first ass reaming in the industry.


    Of course this is just my peanut gallery suspicions, If anybody knows what the unpaid developer "contracts" look like (if they exist) it might make for an interesting read. I'm imagining something like Cleve's contract from the "Why Did Sirtech go Bankrupt" thread.
     
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  4. Dr Tomo Learned

    Dr Tomo
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    Reason why I disagree is if you look into SOE's line up of titles they are basically all shit and they really can't come up with something new and original look at H1Z1. I am curious to know what type of work he did for EQ 1. SOE is really counting on EQ Next to be the holy grail and they are getting a ton of retards to build it for them with Landmark and help fund it too which might entice people to sign up for their sub plan. Other then EQ Next they have nothing and so their Sub plan is useless except to the die htards.

    Yea, I can take that seriously, as it can work since this was immensly common in Silicon Valley where young talent would work for a start up and hope to cash out "if" it gets big. Paypal, Drop box, Linkedin, Facebook, Twitter, and even Square are just the few out of hundreds that range widely in success. I just wouldn't expect this to be done for the next decade and it can fall apart, but it happens. I have respect for him as he does try to change things up, but the biggest problem is that I think he is swimming against the current trend which is heading towards more sandbox like elements. Archeage and Black Desert are gaining a lot of traction with the west and CCP is tryin to capitalize on it with their Project Legion IP and so I have to wonder if a title that is going to possibly be similar to EQ 1 & Vanguard is going to be successful.

    He is desperate for cash, as I already said he lost all his monies from EQ 1's sale to SOE in the stock market, most likely the 09 one not sure.
     
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  5. Azazel Arbiter

    Azazel
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    I'm surprised this thread has fallen to the wayside, given that this trainwreck just keeps on delivering quality amusement. I mean, hells bells, he's got a family of evangelical cultists working as his "dev team" now. :incline:
     
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  6. Xenich Cipher

    Xenich
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    Well... I am kind of surprised to be honest. They released some videos on the progress of the game and it seems to be moving along. /shrug

    Recent Round table discussion:
    https://soundcloud.com/pantheon-rotf/developer_roundtable_1-18-15

    November update:


    October update:



    I don't know what to think. Part of me thinks this is going to end badly... but then part of me thinks... hey... I would take shit from this guy over the complete shit out there now. I mean, I look back at how much I complained and bitched about Vanguard on release, but if I knew that we would end up where we are in MMOs I would have take its crappy problem based release and history any day over the MMOs today. So while I am EXTREMELY skeptical of this game... I can only root for it quietly in hopes that it will prove me wrong and at least end up producing a niche MMO that is free of all the fucktard features of today. The forums look promising though, at least... as it concerns the ideas and type of people there brainstorming. So far, I see no "I play the game of my fun and having to do XYZ is not fun, waaaahhhh bitch moan...", though I would imagine as the game goes on, eventually the fucktards will come out.


    I will say one thing. I think the music is fantastic.
     
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  7. Great Deceiver Arcane

    Great Deceiver
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    The skeleton has the EQ laugh.

    Game's still going to be shit, no doubt about it.
     
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  8. Xenich Cipher

    Xenich
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    As opposed to the complete and utter shit that exists currently?
     
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  9. Mortmal Arcane

    Mortmal
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    Fantastic music indeed , the environments looks good too although graphically its very primitive , inferior to vanguard. No seriously i have seen students doing things 100X better.But ill take a game with very good core mechanisms over a pretty korean one with ultra realistic hair and bouncing boobs.I remember how unfinsihed vanguard was, the fondation were good but plenty of locations completely empty at release, game breaking bugs to boot , lot of frustration.I'd play a classic challenging mmo again, but thats not going to happen and i wont get younger either.
     
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  10. Xenich Cipher

    Xenich
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    Yeah, it does look a little behind the time, but I think it will still look good when it is finished after all the additional elements are layered over the terrain and models/animations get tweaking. In the end, all that matters is that a functional game is produced that is the vision of "old school" gaming. After having years of garbage out there, I can accept some short comings in the "bling" areas in order to obtain solid game play aspects. As for time, it isn't that bad. You don't have to be in a guild that is constantly after the server first. A small guild that has the numbers which moves at its own pace and time restrictions is quite capable and to be honest more enjoyable than the contested race guilds. Not to mention, us old guys are getting to the age where the kids are demanding less time and the the spouse isn't as demanding for attention as they were when you were younger.
     
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  11. Xenich Cipher

    Xenich
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    Speaking of the point made about visuals being dated:

    https://www.pantheonrotf.com/forums/topic/1553/pantheon-trajectory-2015


    Show Spoiler

    [​IMG]





    Show Spoiler

    [​IMG]


    Show Spoiler

    [​IMG]


    Show Spoiler

    [​IMG]
     
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  12. Paper Educated

    Paper
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    At least the christian family left the team. I really hope this game gets made but I'm not counting on it. From what I know it sounds like I could spend a couple of thousand hours playing it.

    Maybe at some points the old style of MMORPGs will make a comeback like single player cRPGs seem to be doing now.
     
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  13. Xenich Cipher

    Xenich
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    Maybe I am being too optimistic, maybe the desire for something other than shit is clouding my perception, but... I think this may come to fruition. When they started the Kickstarter, they had really nothing. They had some concept art and a basic zone model of an area. That is it. In that time, they have built a fully functional server/client system, made several zones, added numerous mechanics and content. while EXTREMELY rough, the game has made some major leaps in development. So, it gives me some bit of hope. Heck, even if it is another Vanguard mess, I will take it... and this time... I will covet it for all its faults.

    I mean, to really appreciate the possibilities here, you have to read the discussion in the forums. The majority of the players there are "Old School" and the discussions revolve around making the game difficult, vast in content/mechanics, open and dangerous. If they meet even 1/2 of what they are attempting, the game will be miles over the heads of anything out there. No, I am not talking about "next gen" or the game being "better" (pointless subjective argument), but that it will be something that is actually a game, meant to play as a game, designed for people who like playing games, who want the challenge, the effort, and failure/success of such. The WoW crowd will absolutely hate the game, they will despise everything about it. They will see it a waste of time, redundant, more effort than it is worth, unPC, etc... That in my eyes is a success because everything that crowd wants and desires is the opposite of what I want.

    But then...

    Brad could fuck it up. It really is a gamble. Time will tell.
     
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  14. Ranselknulf Arcane Patron

    Ranselknulf
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    I wasn't expecting them to make this much progress so maybe they will actually release a game at some point.
     
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  15. Lyric Suite Converting to Islam

    Lyric Suite
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    That's an unusual visual style. There's a great deal of detail but at the same time everything looks quite grainy. Not sure what to make of it.
     
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  16. Xenich Cipher

    Xenich
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    Well, I hope that graphically it doesn't get too appealing. The last thing I want is for the WoW crowd to get wind and start whining and complaining about the game not being a casual face roll fest. They do it every time. In LoTRO Alpha, things were going quite well, only the niche crowd was interested and it was becoming a solid game. Then in Beta/Open Beta the WoW crowd got wind and the forums turned into... well... the WoW forums with every post being about how the game will fail, that it sucks because it doesn't have XYZ casual WoW feature or that the game was too hard, or... someone had to actually read the quest text, etc...

    If the game is just enough to keep them from having interest, then it should only draw the niche old school crowd or newer players who find today's games to be nothing but kiddie entertainment. Being that Brad has stated they aren't worried about millions of subs and as long as the game can sustain them, they consider it a success, well... there is some shred of possibility of this being a success (ie successful in achieving a niche game that does not sell out to the idiot masses)
     
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  17. Alchemist Arcane

    Alchemist
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    I understand your main point here - they should absolutely not cater to the mainstream player base. But I still think the graphics have room for improvement which will make it appeal to the old-school niche they are hoping to attract (and also investors, as Brad mentions in the quote above). If they focus on a style that is traditional (think Keith Parkinson and other classic TSR D&D artists of the 80's) - and not infected with the over-stylized WoWified / anime-ish fantasy art trends of the last several years, I think they will have something the old-school crowd will enjoy. It will have the combined effect of not appealing to the WoW crowd (which is good) but also attracting old-schoolers who miss the classic fantasy art style.

    Anyway I'm amazed this is still going - more power to 'em - I hope they can pull it off. I would definitely give it a try if it gets released.
     
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  18. Xenich Cipher

    Xenich
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    Yes, they do have room for improvement and as Brad said, they are going to work on it. My problem is that we have had so many failures of games over the years that have each sold out to a community that is like hostile aliens to my own expectations and sensibilities that I fear for anything being good enough to attract them. I am an old guy that has seen the absolute inception and decay of this industry and all I can say is that if it even attempts to cater to the current generation of gamers, I will absolutely hate it.
     
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  19. KevinV12000 Arcane

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    If it has half the heart of Vanguard, it will be worth every penny. The key is focusing on the computer gaming base and ignoring the mainstream, much like certain musicians/bands do.
     
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  20. Xenich Cipher

    Xenich
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    Yep, which from what I have read in the forums, they seem to be doing. I have some objections to some suggestions made by people, but over all, the trend of people interested in the game are the PC gamer base. Though it is far to early to see what happens with mainstream. I would imagine that as the game gets into beta (they are shooting for 2016 for beta) and they start to hit the marketing trail... well... that is when we will see the influx of the mainstream crowd. My hope is that when they do finally release, that the timing is during a WoW expansion release. That way mainstream will be distracted and maybe they can avoid the rush of zombies demanding the game be made into the next papamole MMOrpg.
     
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  21. Ranselknulf Arcane Patron

    Ranselknulf
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    The issue isn't so much appealing to the old school crowd as it's making the game not appealing to kiddies.
     
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  22. Alchemist Arcane

    Alchemist
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    I'm totally with you on that (and also old and started MMOs with the launch of UO). So far they seem to have a pretty solid vision of what they want to do and hopefully they're smart enough not to make any compromises to get more mass market appeal. If they do bow down to that kind of pressure - the whole thing is pointless. The world sure doesn't need yet another MMO trying to appeal to everyone.

    Yeah I understand that - and I'm all for them repelling the WoW kids as much as possible.

    I guess my point is they still will need to grab the attention of the market they do want to serve (however small that may be), or they won't be sustainable. They can have better quality graphics / art direction and still focus on their niche. Quality doesn't have to mean mass-market oriented.
     
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  23. Xenich Cipher

    Xenich
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    I have been reading the forum discussions there and am encouraged by the general consensus as to various features and designs, though some people worry me as they tend to be in a bit of an identity conflict. They claim they want "old school", but then make arguments that are dissuasive to the implementation of those features.

    A recent discussion has been going on a bit about the "sting of death" and what it should contain. Most tend to like the idea of a corpse recovery, but some are mixed on exp penalties. Personally, I want both. I love corpse recoveries, but don't want them entirely like early EQ. I didn't like the looting the corpse to drag it or the rot timers of 7 days before the corpse disappeared with all your gear. The former I think was a feature, but If I remember right the latter was a technical limitation issue. Obviously having someone loot your corpse is problematic, especially with players these days. The rot timers while an interesting mechanic of risk/reward I think is a bit too harsh for a game that takes time to earn anything in. I remember many a night doing corpse runs into the early morning hours never even going to bed before work for fear of the chance of losing your gear. I think having to retrieve your corpse is sufficient in risk/reward and doesn't expect the player to forego their RL for the game. I mean, tend to be against the whole "I have a life, I don't have time to... XYZ in a damn game", but this isn't an issue of having to spend time, it is more of an issue of having to spend time on the games clock or you lose everything over the time to just recover a corpse before you log out. I am all for time penalties and consequence, but that is going a bit far I think. I knew some people who lost a corpse to the rot timer and wasn't pretty. I mean, when someone obtaining a gear item could mean months of camping, prep, etc.. that sort of penalty is a bit harsh for a single loss of a corpse.


    As for exp penalties. This one I think is still good. I am not entirely sure how much should be loss with each death, but it should be meaningful and sting, even when getting a rez. Exp penalties tend to curb bad behavior and combined with the chance to lose a level create for some interesting situations of consequence for ones risk. Every time someone leveled, there used to be joy, followed by fear of losing it until they got a buffer. People would get really careful on a ding because (mostly for spell casters) losing that level meant you lost the spells that came with it. It was amusing to see the excitement and joy from a person on a ding only to watch that flood away after they lost a level and couldn't use the spells. Some say this detracts from "fun", but I argue that this is what created the fun. When people think back on games, they tend to think back to the memories of games where they had hardship with difficult obstacles to which created emotional roller coasters. The lows made the highs all the more intoxicating. Not only level loss of spells was an issue, but zone level limits created some interesting dilemmas. Raid zones like Plane of Hate and Plane of Fear had a level 46 level requirement. You could be up in a raid and have so many wipes that the 10% loss after a rez added up, putting you under the zone requirement forcing you to have to go earn exp back to 46 before you could even be rezed back to the zone.


    The reason I like death penalties is because it has an effect on your community. Everyone talks about the days of EQ and how there was a lot of community and friendships formed. I think this was due to the mechanics. People had to rely on each other and this meant they were selective with who they relied on. A typical PUG in EQ operated like a pre-made back then because people had to become knowledgeable and skillful of not only their own class, but that of others as well. If someone was an asshat and caused the group deaths constantly, they were kicked to the curb and if their behavior continued, well... pretty soon they found themselves unable to find groups. Death penalties also detoured a lot of indiscriminate play. Rushing in, over pulling, getting agro, etc... usually always resulted in a party wipe. You do that enough and people start to get pissed because of the workload of making up exp (or recovering the corpses) that you created for them. The solo "fuck you, I play for myself" mentality wouldn't get you far. Either you played as a team, or you played a solo class all the way up to max level.


    All of these types of hardships created real fear while playing. It made exploration extremely dangerous and in return rewarding. I think back to exploring Sirens Grotto in Velious fully. It was a partial water zone with many tunnels that took you to areas which could only be reached under water. It was an extremely dangerous zone with lots of agro issues, casting mobs, etc... making corpse recovery a nightmare. Being able to just see the entire zone was a major accomplishment. How many games these days offer such a rewarding feeling for simply exploring a zone? Consequence and severe penalty make the play all the more sweeter.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2015
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  24. Xenich Cipher

    Xenich
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    Edit: Forgot to add the video



    New update:

    https://www.pantheonrotf.com/forums/topic/1714/pantheon-state-of-the-game-2-20

    I Like what I am seeing. He is right though, the general consensus of Vanguard classes is positive. Seeing the ideas he presented is.. well... the inner min/max geek in me is getting excited. Need to back off though, plan for the worst and hope for the best with this game or I will be very disappointed.
     
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  25. Xenich Cipher

    Xenich
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    I have to say, just in that video update, the graphics are leaps and bounds better. The game looks fantastic and it is likely to get even better looking with their move to Unity 5. What I love about the look is that it has a realistic look as opposed to all the stylized cartoon-like look of games today. They really seem to be moving along though, this game may actually see the light of day. Another encouraging thing is that Brad is not at the helm for the company in terms of the business side, he is the CCO and so specifically is attending to the very thing I always thought he excelled at.

    I think the Zone events sound interesting and I really like the complexity of the mana system he mentions. The game really is shaping up to be a detailed and complex one.

    Honestly though, as more and more content comes out and people see the quality of graphics, style and look, I think it is going to attract much bigger crowds. That is the part that worries me because that is when all the whining will begin with tantrums like "WHAT a death penalty? Penalty systems are outdated!", "What, no PvP? Without PvP your game will fail!", etc...
     
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