Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Serus]

I really don't think it's worth it to ditch Vivisectionist levels in favour of Fighter levels. Pure Vivisectionist is the way to go.

In this game more attack bonus >>>>>>> more sneak dice. If sneak attack were the same bonus damage and simply worked on everything with no need for setup it would still be true.

1 viv for mutagen and accomplished sneak attacker, rest in full BAB classes.

Overcoming enemy AC is the end all and be all of making a physical damage class work and it's very hard for a 3/4th BAB class to do, even with 30 main stat and maxed out buffs and flanking and what have you.

30 Main stat? That's kinda weak. I expect my Vivi to have 40 Strenght. 46 buffed. Also when he gets Transformation, buffed he will have full BAB.

Also sure, AB is important. But you can buff it quite a bit. Flanking + Outflank: +4. Freebooter's Bane + Freebooter's Bond: +4 (at level 5), up to +7. Greater Heroism: +4. Bard Inspire Courage: +4. Prayer +1. Attacking Prone enemy: -4 AC.

Transformation comes a bit too late to matter though, it's a level 6 alchemist spell AFAIK which means level 16? You supposedly end the game at 16~17 with full party so that's only helpful at the very end.
However all this is missing the big picture. That a Fighter X/Vivi 1 is reliant on spells from others while a pure Vivisectionist is actually mostly-self sufficient and can even provide buffs for other party members. Individually might not be stronger (though it can be argued that he is) but the party as a whole certainly is. Making a char is not just about damage but also synergy with the rest of the party.

 

[Raghar]

I'm playing around with a few ideas and rolled a rogue knife master, cheated in some XP and took a level in Monk. The internet say's that flurry of blows works automatically - now if that were true - and the game states I have x1 APR, then I take TWF giving me two, then I would make x3 attacks against an enemy correct?. Because by my count I'm only getting x2.

So I think Flurry is either borked (because I can't work out how to engage it) or it doesn't work with daggers.

Dagger in hands of dagger master is accurate weapon aimed at vitals and imperfections in armor. Flurry of blow is about using so many strikes enemy can't defend against all of them. So it kinda works completely differently.
Of course these weapons Nok-Nok is specialized with, kinda works with flurry of blows. (Actually these are also dagger family, DnD restricts monk flurry of blow to monk traditional weapons like Kama, or brass knuckles.)

 

[Raghar]

Actually I looked at pathfinder rules. And there are two version. New version states either take two weapon fighting, or use flurry of blows.
Old version said, you can use penalties for two weapon fighting and combine them with penalties with two weapon fighting to have even more attacks, if you would actually hit anything and don't stab yourself.

 

[Chippy]

Actually I looked at pathfinder rules. And there are two version. New version states either take two weapon fighting, or use flurry of blows.
Old version said, you can use penalties for two weapon fighting and combine them with penalties with two weapon fighting to have even more attacks, if you would actually hit anything and don't stab yourself.

I've been fiddling about with this and that, using the savegame editor to load a few builds. Which I didn't really want to do really, but I can't find a feat list for the game and I expect they're (or might) add feats with patches. I expect everyone will tailor a build around Crusader's Flurry if they add it. Personally I think it's a crime Quickdraw didn't make it in.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Personally I think it's a crime Quickdraw didn't make it in.

Seriously. On release, I spent awhile looking for it. Then I figured maybe they used something like the variant (house rule?) where you get it for free at +1 BAB. Then I realized that no, it's just a pain in the ass any time you want to switch weapons, so I basically never do.

 

[Efe]

they dont even let you draw y our weapons beforehand when you try to ambush an enemy or cast more than 1 spell to start combat.

 

[Yosharian]

they dont even let you draw y our weapons beforehand when you try to ambush an enemy or cast more than 1 spell to start combat.

You can cast spells out of combat, can't you? That already is incline compared to Deadfire

 

[Zero Credibility]

they dont even let you draw y our weapons beforehand when you try to ambush an enemy or cast more than 1 spell to start combat.

You can cast spells out of combat, can't you? That already is incline compared to Deadfire

And you can start the combat with multiple spells. Just pause the game before they notice you, order everyone to nuke the bastards, unpause and watch the fireworks.

 

[Haplo]

they dont even let you draw y our weapons beforehand when you try to ambush an enemy or cast more than 1 spell to start combat.

You can cast spells out of combat, can't you? That already is incline compared to Deadfire

And you can start the combat with multiple spells. Just pause the game before they notice you, order everyone to nuke the bastards, unpause and watch the fireworks.

Truth be told, you can also do that in Deadfire. You just can't prebuff.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Ah, can't comment on that, as I had no wish whatsoever to try Deadfire after PoE. I was actually answering Efe's post, should have made that clear. So, Sawyer is still holding his ground on the "no-prebuffing"?

 

[Efe]

the expect you to prebuff in pathfinder though.
and sawyer's autism doesnt make pf's implementation right..
a renowned character once said, "if I'm to choose between one turd and another, then I prefer not to choose at all"

 

[hell bovine]

Here's a poor build you can try at home.
I started as an Archaeologist, dual-classed to Rogue and then finally Dragon Disciple. My current character is 5 Arch/4 Rogue/2 Dragon Disciple.

5 Arch gets you Archaeologist's Luck +2, which adds +2 to pretty much everything he/she can do in combat and out. I'm thinking of taking another Rogue level to get another 1d6 Sneak Attack damage, but his stealth is high and he hits a lot with sneak attacks. 2 Dragon Disciple adds +2 STR to my character to give a higher attack bonus (21 STR now, for a +5). I also get a free Bite attack and the possibility to grow claws (currently using a shield, though). Attack bonus and damage is moderate but the Luck +2 helps a lot, and the character has decent AC at 28 for level 11. Boom, poor build you can try yourself.

But why would you do this to your archeologist... Indiana Jones doesn't need any dragon wings...

I was pleasantly surprised by bards in PK; a very nice spell selection, useful songs and can hold their own in combat. I've even turned Reg into one (the magus cast-and-hit was too much micromanagement) and he's doing better in melee than Linzi ranged, actually.

 

[Elex]

they dont even let you draw y our weapons beforehand when you try to ambush an enemy or cast more than 1 spell to start combat.

You can cast spells out of combat, can't you? That already is incline compared to Deadfire

And you can start the combat with multiple spells. Just pause the game before they notice you, order everyone to nuke the bastards, unpause and watch the fireworks.

Truth be told, you can also do that in Deadfire. You just can't prebuff.

it’s needed a particular kind of of... mental.... umhh.. ginnastick.. for decide that buff spells work only in combat.

 

[Haplo]

I don't quite agree with the bashing of Sawyer's approach to this. This way buffs are an important part of tactics and action economy. They have a big opportunity cost. Do I spend time buffing my party or nuking stuff? Do I need any important protections ASAP? Or can I take the risk and skip them?

While in most games per-buffing to the limit before triggering combat is a kind of sanctioned cheat mode. Particularly when the enemies can't do the same. A cheat I don't mind much, but I respect Sawyer's approach here.

 

[Serus]

Is the end game opposition immune to blunt? I am planning an unarmed Rogue 3 / Monk 2/ Paladin X.

How do you expect this to work? Unless it's a typo and you meant Rogue 3/Monk X/Paladin 2.

 

[Jasede]

Is the end game opposition immune to blunt? I am planning an unarmed Rogue 3 / Monk 2/ Paladin X.

My level 17 monk can't hurt end-game opposition significantly unless I make him wield a staff or some other weapon that has elemental damage or the Ghost Touch property.
You'd think a level 17 monk somehow figured out how to hurt ghosts, but I guess there you go.

 

[Shadenuat]

Incorporeal creatures are tough cookies, they resist almost anything but Force damage (and Channeling).

Spoiler

Incorporeal (Ex)
An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.

An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).

An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.

An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.

An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Perception checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.

And game doesn't provide that much of explanation in Combat Log, you just see that your damage is shit but see no reason for it (like you see with DR).

 

[ArchAngel]

I don't quite agree with the bashing of Sawyer's approach to this. This way buffs are an important part of tactics and action economy. They have a big opportunity cost. Do I spend time buffing my party or nuking stuff? Do I need any important protections ASAP? Or can I take the risk and skip them?

While in most games per-buffing to the limit before triggering combat is a kind of sanctioned cheat mode. Particularly when the enemies can't do the same. A cheat I don't mind much, but I respect Sawyer's approach here.

In Sawyer land his changes make sense since he killed limited resources part of D&D which is a very important part.
This game not only has limited resources but real and tangible penalties for rest spammers. Just like PnP. And in such a system being able to prebuff is a strategic choice compare to tactical one that Sawyer made it to be.

 

[Serus]

Is the end game opposition immune to blunt? I am planning an unarmed Rogue 3 / Monk 2/ Paladin X.

How do you expect this to work? Unless it's a typo and you meant Rogue 3/Monk X/Paladin 2.

No no. I meant the thing. What is the specific problem with it?

Well, I don't really see much point going unarmed without going high level monk. You will be permanently stuck with your basic unarmed attacks that offer minimal damage (upgrades to which come with monk levels) and no ability to circumvent damage resistances (again, monk levels needed for that). Looks like gimped character to me.
What is the advantage of going unarmed over choosing a proper weapon if you are only going to do 2 levels of monk?
Of curse if you want to challenge yourself, it might prove... interesting.

Edit: Divine bond could in theory help a little but you will only get it at level 10 and it will never get very good since you will be 5 levels behind in Paladin class. And that is assuming it even works in P:K with unarmed.

 

[The Great ThunThun*]

You are correct Serus
Following that line of thought my new build is :

Knifemaster 3/ Scaled Fist 1/ Paladin2/ Knife master X.

Should have an interesting amount of AC/Saves and Damage.

 

[Serus]

You are correct Serus
Following that line of thought my new build is :

Knifemaster 3/ Scaled Fist 1/ Paladin2/ Knife master X.

Should have an interesting amount of AC/Saves and Damage.

Yep, that's the almost "classic": sneak attack class with 2 levels of paladin and 1 level of CHA monk build. Great AC, good saves, high damage. You can't go wrong with this one. The only downside, you have to be lawful good.

 

[Chippy]

Personally I think it's a crime Quickdraw didn't make it in.

Seriously. On release, I spent awhile looking for it. Then I figured maybe they used something like the variant (house rule?) where you get it for free at +1 BAB. Then I realized that no, it's just a pain in the ass any time you want to switch weapons, so I basically never do.

Just rating the mechanic of accessing weapons, I'd say NWN1&2 nailed it. I was equipping my characters with slash, pierce, bludgeoning weapons in Kingmaker - then realized it was pointless because you can still take out a greater skeleton with a longsword. But throughout the history of each CRPG it's always been some form of bottleneck on a fighter-type character that either the UI (original IE games) or the implementation of a rulz lawyer (Sawyer taxing weapon slots behind a feat) that fighters can't just quickly access their weapons.

I will say that if Owlcat don't implement quickdraw, map the weapons and stealth to hotkeys...then I'd have to knock a few points off their otherwise flawless interpretation of what worked really well in previous RPG and what didn't. Or just assume that they never played a Ranger - 'cause we all know that was the best f'ing class of all time right?.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Incorporeal creatures are tough cookies, they resist almost anything but Force damage (and Channeling).

Spoiler

Incorporeal (Ex)
An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.

An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).

An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.

An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.

An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Perception checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.

And game doesn't provide that much of explanation in Combat Log, you just see that your damage is shit but see no reason for it (like you see with DR).

So, bring jubilost with force bombs feat to fight those ghostly guardians?

 

[Jasede]

You may not have as much control over your party as you want, depending on how certain choices & bugs shake out.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

But why would you do this to your archeologist... Indiana Jones doesn't need any dragon wings...

Well he's an archaeologist with a bite now...literally. It's a pretty interesting combination so far. Moderate attack bonus but good when using Archaeologist's Luck, good AC and damage potential and can do fun dragon things like bite and use breath weapons. With the sneak attack damage and also spells (Heroism, Blur and others), and a great Use Magic Device skill, he's a pretty versatile melee character. I'm having fun with him.