Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Parabalus]

...said the Underrail fan.

(and I am an Underrail fan too, to be clear)

Underrail is also too big with the Expansion tbh, was far more palatable without it.

But it's open world and much less story driven than PF:KM, you can skip stuff or just outright stop much easier.
So you can sorta choose what you want to experience, Kangmaker is less generous in this regard.

 

[Luckmann]

Shorter game is , Kangmaker is too long.

There is no such thing as a too long game, and lvling in Kingmaker was already fucky. But we've been over this, you're just a retard.

 

[Parabalus]

lvling in Kingmaker was already fucky.

What has the fucky leveling got to do with how long the game is?
The XP given out is an easily adjustable number.

If you're referring to the PC only XP giveaway skill checks, those have even less to do with game length.

There is no such thing as a too long game

There definitely is, both from a player and developer perspective.

 

[Cryomancer]

There definitely is, both from a player and developer perspective.

But kingmaker is not that case. The devs are literally adaptating long books into chapters ( https://pathfinder.fandom.com/wiki/Kingmaker_(adventure_path) )

And follow a similar progression of the AP. Unless you are soloing, the progression in levels and in chapters is very P&P like. WoTR will probably have the same chapters but faster leveling and pacing. Both are adapting 6 books.

• 
  Stolen Land = lv 1
  Rivers Run Red = lv 5
  The Varnhold Vanishing = lv 7
  Blood for Blood = lv 10
  War of the River Kings = lv 12
  Sound of a Thousand Screams = lv 15.

Now the WoTR

• 
  
  
  • 
    The Worldwound Incursion = lv 1
    Sword of Valor = lv 6
    Demon's Heresy = lv 9
    The Midnight Isles = lv 12
    Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth = lv 15
    City of Locusts = lv 18
    

 

[Parabalus]

There definitely is, both from a player and developer perspective.

But kingmaker is not that case. The devs are literally adaptating long books into chapters ( https://pathfinder.fandom.com/wiki/Kingmaker_(adventure_path) )

And follow a similar progression of the AP. Unless you are soloing, the progression in levels and in chapters is very P&P like. WoTR will probably have less chapters but faster leveling but both are adapting 6 books.

• 
  Stolen Land = lv 1
  Rivers Run Red = lv 5
  The Varnhold Vanishing = lv 7
  Blood for Blood = lv 10
  War of the River Kings = lv 12
  Sound of a Thousand Screams = lv 15.

Now the WoTR

• 
  
  
  • 
    The Worldwound Incursion = lv 1
    Sword of Valor = lv 6
    Demon's Heresy = lv 9
    The Midnight Isles = lv 12
    Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth = lv 15
    City of Locusts = lv 18
    

Kingmaker is probably the longest isometric RPG, as long as Skyrim or W3, but unlike them it's linear.
How it's structured doesn't really affect the total time and the level progression is Kangmaker is fine.

WotR shaving off 20-30 hours of a playthrough is probably their intent.

 

[Cryomancer]

WotR shaving off 20-30 hours of a playthrough is probably their intent.

20-30 is too short.

Assuming 6 books, one book per 5 hours is EXTREMELY rushed. The main story of kingmaker takes on average 80 hours and a completionist run can reach 200 hours( source - hltb ). My guess is that WoTR will be around 50~70 hours, main story and around 100~120 hours a completionist run.

But this is not that long. Did you played Gothic 2? There are a mod called RETURNING 2.0 which adds about 250 hours of content to the game. My last water mage save has 120 hours and is on ch 5 of 7 and is very rushed compared to other people who are on ch 5. Hell, only to become a necromancer on ch 1 on my first run, took 14 hours and took months for me to reach ch 7(the game crashes on sleeper temple, so I never finished). BTW, joining any guild on ret is complicated and magical guilds even harder.

Baldur's Gate saga(1 + Shadows of Amn + Throne of Bhaal) is longer than kingmaker too and divided on chapters.

 

[BarbequeMasta]

My guess is that WoTR will be around 50~70 hours, main story and around 100~120 hours a completionist run.

This is a pretty solid midle ground IMO, it give a decent chunk of content while making sure it's all generally of similar polished. I generally like KM for start to finish and absolutly love the final LK chapter and boss fight, but the last couple of chapters before it(especially Pitax) did feel less polished and less dense in content than the rest of the game. One could argue Owlcat should have just delayed the game, but a smallish dev doesn't allways have such luxury.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

20-30 is too short.

Assuming 6 books, one book per 5 hours is EXTREMELY rushed. The main story of kingmaker takes on average 80 hours and a completionist run can reach 200 hours( source - hltb ). My guess is that WoTR will be around 50~70 hours, main story and around 100~120 hours a completionist run.

He is saying shaving 20 - 30 hours off KM, which means reducing from 100 hours to 70 - 80 hours game

FYI the current alpha from Prologue to Chapter 3 is around 30 - 40 hours and that with incomplete content. Now part of that time is spent in the HOMM Crusade mode so the actual CRPG might be a bit shorter. Assuming that the scale until the epilogue stays the same that's around 60 - 80 hours per playthrough, averaging at 70.

Unlike KM there is supposed to be heavy replayability, at least fro Chapter 4 - 6 depending on Mythic Path so I guess you can play this game several times. Limiting the game to be around 70 hours is probably a good thing.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

There is no such thing as a too long game

There definitely is, both from a player and developer perspective.

Judge not the length, but the quality of the content therein.

 

[Parabalus]

My guess is that WoTR will be around 50~70 hours, main story and around 100~120 hours a completionist run.

That's exactly what I was suggesting.

But this is not that long. Did you played Gothic 2?

Yes. The game is much more open than Kangmaker, especially with the addon.

There is no such thing as a too long game

There definitely is, both from a player and developer perspective.

Judge not the length, but the quality of the content therein.

Knowing when to quit is a hallmark of quality.

Kangmaker doesn't become much weaker in its later chapters, but the length still drags on.

 

[Cryomancer]

Judge not the length, but the quality of the content therein.

“Quantity has a quality all its own.” ~Stalin


Now seriously; I an waiting this game for so long time and there are so few MASTERPIECE RPG's that I wanna spend a lot of time on it. Solasta and BG3 are good but doesn't allow you to become a Lich and reanimate bosses to serve you. Nor a freaking demon lord or a angel.

 

[user]

You guys are fucking bananas if you think there's a thing such as "too long" for one of the greatest crpgs out there. There's not, it's that rpg-sommelier edginess talking.

 

[Trashos]

Unlike KM there is supposed to be heavy replayability

Kingmaker has great replayability, what are you talking about?

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Kingmaker has great replayability, what are you talking about?

Depends on your definition I guess. I count replayability as narrative replayability.

While there are some changes here and there nearly all events in KM still stays on track without many radical changes between playthroughs. The NPC coming to your help in the last chapter will be different yes, but event still plays out relatively samey. Significant branch exist on Salad or no Salad romance. The branch in the narrative is relatively small.

WoR, theoretically, should have significantly bigger/major branches. Or at least that's what is sold to us. Instead of 1 big rail with minor branches here and there but staying in the same direction, Mythic Paths as sold by Owlcat is supposed to be major branching rails, especially in later chapters when you fully transform (or in case of Swarm probably derail the plot).

Of course this is the sales pitch. The actual product will be seen on next year (or at least Jan/Feb beta with Ch 4).

 

[Efe]

it adds yes but branching narratiive does not have a monopoly on replayability.
build options alone make it replayable many times.

 

[Roguey]

But kingmaker is not that case. The devs are literally adaptating long books into chapters

If there are combat encounters every few steps in the Kingmaker books, then they're bad books.

 

[Efe]

I guess whole pitax should have been defended by .. a dozen guards?
a major troll + kobold keep should have empty rooms?

only maybe too many wiildi hunt and thats because iit cheapens the rarity of monster

 

[Luckmann]

Kangmaker doesn't become much weaker in its later chapters, but the length still drags on.

Horseshit. The game takes a nosedive by Pitax and everyone knows it. It is an amazing game, but don't sell us manure and call it chocolate.

What has the fucky leveling got to do with how long the game is?

The pacing of leveling and associated content. A longer games allow for a lower curve and tighter gameplay, whereas shorter gameplay leads to spiking and an absurd inflation of relative power-levels.

There is no such thing as a too long game

There definitely is, both from a player and developer perspective.

From a developer perspective, obviously, but if we cared about that Owlcat should be doing mobile games in the 5-minute chunk range, so that is not a valid argument. From a player, consumer perspective of people that favor roleplaying games, there is absolutely no such thing as a "too long game". A game that starts dragging on isn't "too long", it has simply become unengaging or boring due to the structure or quality of the game and the sections you have reached.

Ponder for example if BG1+2+ToB was a single game. It is entirely possible to consider it one. It's even possible to do, albeit with imperfect results. Is that a "too long game", if you were to do it that way? Of course it isn't. The demarcation of when one game starts and another begins is entirely arbitrary and a function of your psychology, when in reality what matters is the quality of the game. Another example will be Kingmaker+Wrath - games that will be virtually identical at their cores (hopefully), although the scenery and story will change - things that could just as well change within a single game as between the two, in this case.

Longer is always better, all other things being equal.

[muh] replayability

Completely irrelevant to the quality of any single playthrough, which should always be prioritized. I'd rather have one amazing playthrough of an amazing game than half a dozen mediocre ones.

 

[Parabalus]

Longer is always better, all other things being equal.

Absolutely not.
By your logic Kangmaker would be better if it were 1000 hours instead of the 100-150ish it is. Absurd, no?


But as you admit yourself, in Kangmaker's case all other things aren't equal.

quality of any single playthrough, which should always be prioritized

Quality for whom?
The majority of players don't even finish a single playthrough.

From a player, consumer perspective of people that favor roleplaying games, there is absolutely no such thing as a "too long game"

There is - you want to get to the end before you get bored. The longer the game, the harder that is - even if it's quality is constant.

A game that starts dragging on isn't "too long", it has simply become unengaging or boring due to the structure or quality of the game and the sections you have reached.

Which games are as long as Bugfinder and don't have a quality drop-off, so that they don't drag on?
Linear story-driven RPGs.

The pacing of leveling and associated content. A longer games allow for a lower curve and tighter gameplay, whereas shorter gameplay leads to spiking and an absurd inflation of relative power-levels.

This is just wrong - the longer the game, the less tight is the tuning, since there are way more ways for the players to break the game or get ahead of the curve.

This is often the case in RPGs, where any difficulty is frontloaded and evaporates later on as you get access to more tools.

BG1+2+ToB

That's about the length of Bugfinder, likely less, and it definitely would be worse if they were all sold as just one game. Incidentally the quality also drops as you go on.

 

[Trashos]

Horseshit. The game takes a nosedive by Pitax and everyone knows it. It is an amazing game, but don't sell us manure and call it chocolate.

Chapters 5&6 are my favorite chapters
Definition of "non-generic" in the dictionary has their picture next to it.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Chapters 5&6 are my favorite chapters
Definition of "non-generic" in the dictionary has their picture next to it.

Dictionaries don't have pictures

 

[Roguey]

I guess whole pitax should have been defended by .. a dozen guards?

Pitax has about 20 combat encounters.

a major troll + kobold keep should have empty rooms?

There are likewise nearly 20 combat encounters in that keep.

Cutting both in half wouldn't make those areas feel any less populated. Most party-based RPGs don't have that many combat encounters in a single area.

 

[Xamenos]

Damn you for making me look

This is Hargulka's fortress in Paizo's original Adventure Path:

Spoiler

R10 is the room where Hargulka sits alone. R9 is Kargadd the rock troll. The other rooms contain a couple trolls or trollhounds each, with the exception of R6 which is a storeroom with no enemies and R7 that contains a half-ettin two-headed troll

And this is Irovetti's Palace:

Spoiler

Can't be bothered to double-check those rooms' contents, but most of what's in game was there.

And I have to say I enjoyed the large dungeons. Made these guys feel like somewhat proper armies instead of just a dozen guys with delusions of grandeur, and so more of a legitimate threat .

 

[Roguey]

And I have to say I enjoyed the large dungeons. Made these guys feel like somewhat proper armies instead of just a dozen guys with delusions of grandeur, and so more of a legitimate threat .

This also describes the Deep Roads in Dragon Age: Origins which received much criticism for being a slog. Like Kingmaker, it has a couple of maps with roughly 20 encounters each.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

honestly, it's more of a mixed bag in KM. Major dungeon in KM was usually the end of chapter one:

1. Stag Lord Fortress: good. It gives you a feeling of storming an enemy base, especially with the alarm mechanic. Stealth should have played a bigger role but the size and encounter are just right.
2. Trobbold: good as well. I don't think it is too big or too small. Trying to get in from the front is fun as well with enemies coming from inside the fortress.
3. Womb of Lamasthu & Bloom first world: bad. fuck lantern puzzle. fuck it. Womb of Lamasthu also feels dragged on with you fighting spider after spiders.
4. Vordakai Tomb: the best dungeon in the whole base game on the virtue you being locked in there. Later version nerf it much by giving supplies inside. Finishing it in the old version only with 2 total rest was hard as fuck without meta knowledge because of the attributes draining enemies there. This is probably the only dungeon (especially old version) that the philosophy of "small combat to drain the party out of resources" truly shines.
5. Armag Tomb: good. the size is just right. some story sequence for non-combat skill checks. good optional encounter as well.
6. Pitax: bad. The dungeon is too large but there wasn't much meaningful encounter inside.
7. THatEoT: nuff criticism about this one. It's not as bad as people making it out to be but it is still annoyingly dragged on.

Roguey Deep Roads comparison is apt for Pitax, Womb of Lamasthu especially I feel.