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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Owlcat's next Pathfinder RPG - Kickstarter Live

Discussion in 'Owlcat Games' started by purpleblob, Nov 27, 2019.

  1. Pink Eye Kineticist Patron

    Pink Eye
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    Just put to put into perspective how great of a class hellcat is for monk. Consider the following:
    Hellcat fury:
    At 1st level, a hellcat can deal slashing damage with his unarmed strikes. At 4th level, whenever a hellcat confirms a critical hit with his slashing unarmed strike, the target of that attack also takes 1d4 points of bleed damage. At 8th level, the bleed damage increases to 1d6 points; at 12th level, the bleed damage increases to 1d8 points; at 16th level, the bleed damage increases to 1d10 points; and at 20th level, the bleed damage increases to 1d12 points.
    Source: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/co...paizo-monk-archetypes/hellcat-monk-archetype/
     
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  2. ArchAngel Arcane

    ArchAngel
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    Lol so bad. So you only got 10% chance per attack to apply bleed? And only if your confirm it lol. Not to mention bleed damage does not even work vs many enemies like undead, constructs, elementals and such.
     
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  3. Efe Arbiter

    Efe
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    it changes almost every ability monk has to some degree. loses every defensive advantage a monk has to gain fire resistance, a second roll vs status effects and a mix of blur + improved invis.
    looks a lot less reliable
     
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  4. kelkorkesis Novice

    kelkorkesis
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  5. frajaq Arbiter

    frajaq
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    some prestige/alternative classes of this system are so fucking trash good luck to the devs making sense of it
     
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  6. Sarkile Augur

    Sarkile
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    I could imagine them locking it behind a quest or something. Especially since it has to be witnessed by a Hellknight.
     
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  7. kelkorkesis Novice

    kelkorkesis
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    Paizo's position on prestige classes is understandable. In 3.5 you have literally no reason to stay on your class. You would want to abandon Sorcerer or Cleric asap since those classes offered no class abilities. You would stay wizard for 5 levels, grab some nice alternative class features (precursor of archetypes) and jump onto a prestige class. For a martial build, you would enter several frontloaded classes to pump your numbers.

    Paizo tried to solve this by adding some kind of progression (eg, weapon training, bloodline powers) to every class and/or some class exclusive stuff you pick in reguler intervals (eg, rage powers, rogue talents, arcane exploits). This also allowed them to lock some abilities to some classes to avoid unintended synergies. Paizo's idea has its own merits but their designers are incompetent hacks so for each master of many styles we have 10 hellcat monk type useless stuff. I would take 3.5 classes over pathfinder anyday.
     
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  8. Syme Learned

    Syme
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    My 2 cents on the Hellcat Monk: Most of its mechanics are underwhelming, but the bleed effect is kind of a big deal, even though it may look useless. In the Pathfinder Pen & Paper rules, bleeds are probably among the worst mechanics, in that they either do next to nothing, or completely break an encounter.

    To explain: Unless stated otherwise, bleed effects continue indefinitely until healed via a heal skill check (which is easy in PnP, but it doesn't exist in PF:K) or any form of magical healing (which the vast majority of non-humanoid enemies simply doesn't have access to). In essence, it's a shitty little DoT with an infinite duration and no save, where you're either immune/can heal, or you die. Slowly.

    That means that you can cheese any encounter after a single crit against any enemy susceptible to bleeds, as long as they can't heal and as long as you have the means to break combat somehow, which for Monks happens at lvl 8 at the latest, when you get Abundant Step and can teleport 400+ feet for 2 ki points. If you're worried about landing a crit, remember that unchained monks get their additional flurry attacks at their highest BAB. Hasted, you're looking at +20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5 to your attacks, so as long as you can reliably hit with your first four attacks you will reliably crit within a couple of rounds.

    So how does it play out? Greater Enraged Owlbear: Bleed and Abundant Step, he can't heal himself. Ancient Black Dragon: Bleed and Abundant Step, he can't heal himself. 20th lvl barbarian murderboss without healing potions? Bleed and Abundant Step. Most demons, including endgame fuckers like Mariliths and Balors? They too have no way of healing themselves, so bleed and Abundant Step. You get the idea. Maybe the AI cheats and can infallibly track your movement to dimension door/teleport after you, but they can't do that and attack in the same round so you'll continue until one of you runs out of ki points or spells slots, but then there's always Expeditious Retreat and running in circles like an idiot.

    Finally, while it looks like you're a one trick pony, you only really need one passive class ability and any means of escape for the trick to work, so you can build the rest of your monk as you wish.

    Of course all of this is just theory at this point, it remains to be seen how the devs implement the exact mechanics. However I wouldn't bet on the AI being smart enough to handle an infinite DoT by calling for heals/summoning allies that can heal, or specifically dispel your Expeditious Retreat if it can't keep up with you.
     
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  9. deuxhero Arcane

    deuxhero
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    One interesting thing I saw in that breakdown was the detect lies ability being mentioned. Inquisitor had something in PnP and it was axed in the video game with no replacement (making the class even worse than it was). That and a tracking option being mentioned make it clear that's not 100% how it will be in the game.

    Because for non-murder hobo members the intent is that the Hellknights summon the Devil when it's done as part of the initiation ceremony for full members. It's "show us you're as tough as a devil if you want to roll with us", not some desire to depopulate devils.

    Too bad all demons have fast healing... There's also way, way easier ways to inflict bleed like a mundane arrow, a fixed price weapon mod for any simple weapon that does slashing and/or piercing damage and way more.

    I disagree with your conclusion. Of the dozens of classes 3E introduced past the core, all them were either a: Host to a new mechanical system that book introduced (such as psionics) b: a caster with more limited list that couldn't really do anything one of the core options did better or c: total garbage. The exceptions were Factotum (so weirdly written it might as well have been a new subsystem), Dread Necromancer+Beguiler (who would fall into b if weren't substantially better than the core casting classes at their very narrow focus of controlling undead and being a stealthy magic user respectively) and Scout (effectively a variant rogue). There are far, far more archetypes worth taking than that, including ones that fundamentally change a class.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
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  10. Pink Eye Kineticist Patron

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    Well the reason why I highlighted the bleed, was because it didn't explicitly state if the bleed had a timer or not. Which gave me ideas for cheesy builds. Also the ability to deal slashing damage with unarmed can be very useful.
     
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  11. Pink Eye Kineticist Patron

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    Zen archer is another I'd like to see in the game. The ability to perform flurry of blows with a bow, is pretty good. Really I just want different ways to play monk.
     
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  12. Efe Arbiter

    Efe
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    is there no swordsage in pathfinder?
     
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  13. Syme Learned

    Syme
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    Uh no they don't, unless you're talking about the PF:K game, in which case I don't remember. But neither the demon subtype, nor the vast majority of common demons have any form of fast healing/regen per PnP rules. The only one that comes to mind is the Quasit.

    It remains to be seen if any make it into the game. That said, the arrows cost 7200 gold for a quiver of 20 which isn't exactly economical. The serrated edge is a better option, but it will turn your martial weapons into exotic ones for 2000g and a -2 to attack and at that point you may as well waste a feat on Bleeding Critical or just save up for a wounding weapon. The nice thing with the Hellcat Monk's bleed is that it's early and free, aside from having to live with overall worse class features on an already underperforming class. It wouldn't be my first choice for a roleplaying playthrough, but it could be an option for cheesing encounters on solo Monk runs.
     
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  14. Pink Eye Kineticist Patron

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  15. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
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    There is only one race that matters,and that is pure human! Enslave anything fuckable,kill the rest!
     
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  16. Roguey Arcane Sawyerite

    Roguey
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    Me in Wrath, possibly:

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Pink Eye Kineticist Patron

    Pink Eye
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    Well this is all that I could gleam from their Discord:
    [​IMG]
     
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  18. ArchAngel Arcane

    ArchAngel
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    Ask them to first fix all bugs with current monks and their archetypes :D
     
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  19. Fedora Master Arcane Patron

    Fedora Master
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    This looks like the edgelordiest of RPGs.
     
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  20. Pink Eye Kineticist Patron

    Pink Eye
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    Truly, the Dark Souls of CRPGs.
     
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  21. ArchAngel Arcane

    ArchAngel
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    You must be one of those cucks that played Civ games as pacifist trying to go for a peaceful victory.
     
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  22. DeepOcean Arcane

    DeepOcean
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    If the army was a horde of barbarians to plunder at your orders, then it would be nice being Attila but if you are just general of the good guys to save the world, on practice, you are more like a bureaucrat than actually the one calling the shots.
     
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  23. CaesarCzech Educated

    CaesarCzech
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    Imho the archeotype is interesting but it should be less Teleport and more dodge. Would make more sense if the class focus is basically battle of attrition. You tire opponent and bleed him out, rather than scratch him and run.
     
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  24. CaesarCzech Educated

    CaesarCzech
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    Adventure has good guys only, but Owlcat is adding possibility to play as evil, so i doubt they'd do that while not allowing you to recruit some nasty scumbags into army. I figure its going to be less, lead army, and more like lead a crusade. Apparently from what i remember of the adventure forces of good arent the only ones fighting there even if they do most of work, Asmodeans are present as well and there is even few chaotic evils. So you got good guys and Devils and Demons fighting Daemons(WHO CAME WITH THIS STUPID NAME BTW ? UTTERLY RETARDED) i suppose that evil characters will get opportunity to centralize the evil contingent under their command. If they do it well it might be interesting, especially if they include some tensions with the good forces.


    Here is 4Chan blurb

    herefore, represent nihilistic evil; driven by nothing but pure hatred, daemons despise life and everything that lives. Born from the energies of death, with each different form of death creating a different kind of daemon, they are in many ways the most evil of the three major fiends (Devils/Daemons/Demons), to the point that Devils and Demons have been known to team up against them, even to the point of joining Celestials - they have their differences, but both races agree that they like living and they like having mortals to torment, so the Daemonic plan of annihilating all life throughout the multiverse, then committing mass suicide in order to extinguish life forever, and in the meantime destroying and devouring as many souls as possible from the river of souls, leaving nothing left to even reincarnate or form a new planar being... well, they're not exactly on board with that. Pretty much all the planar exemplars, or at least those who have any interest in mortals, will team up to fight the Daemons and guard the River of Souls, regardless of alignment or other hatreds between them.

    On top of that, Daemons were the ones responsible for the creation of Demons in their attempts to find new ways to cause mass death across the universe. They tried merging an evil soul with an abyssal larva and created the first demon, and in the process taught the Abyss how to make more. They regard this as a mistake due to the Demon's desires to corrupt and turn souls into more demons rather than extinguishing and obliterating them as Daemons will, but this doesn't make the rest of the planes any happier about it.


    So There is stuff to work with in terms of lore.
     
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