Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Desiderius]

Bowling infusion, and it's the only one that matters.

Good to see we're in agreement then. I'm not sure what the point of everything else is.

The point is that you keep bringing up irrelevant things as arguments against the power of the Kineticist. You put forth the Sirocco Sorcerer as a counterexample, but he has a lower BAB and no iteratives either. You would naturally object to anyone bringing those up when discussing the sorceror's power, so I can't understand why you do that for the Kineticist.

This is beneath you.

I said that people were mistaking the (broken) power of persistent AoE effects for the power of the class itself.

Neither Kin nor Sorc is the strongest class in the game properly played, they just both have access to that broken effect. It is kind of perverse that Owlcat intensified their error by removing the Form Save from those exact Forms but that just accentuates my point.

 

[Desiderius]

every class has a niche and every well-made party needs a bit of everything. You have to judge each class by what it brings to the table and how well it fills its intended role, not compare classes in a vacuum and say that X is worse than Y because it can't do what Y does.

Yes, that was my (counter)point. Was arguing against someone claiming that Kin was strongest class.

 

[Cryomancer]

Neither Kin nor Sorc is the strongest class in the game properly played, they just both have access to that broken effect. It is kind of perverse that Owlcat intensified their error by removing the Form Save from those exact Forms but that just accentuates my point.

What is broken is the "kill kill, lets walk into this deadly earth/sirroco/cloud/fog zone" AI. Only the dumbest undead/constructs should act that way. Even bestial animals should not walk into this death zone.

Sneak attacks are the unique broken thing on this game. Getting 6 sneaks attacks with hellfire ray makes no sense.

 

[purpleblob]

Sure, but some people like making their own mercs. Nothing wrong with it.

In Kingmaker, Amiri is one of the most annoying people in the world, so it makes sense to replace her with someone far more palatable. Her VA is like nails on a chalkboard.

And then she gets her just desserts. If you're too impatient to get to that part, there are 11 other companions.

The companions are an integral part of the design whether you like it or not. All y'all are missing the whole point of restrictions and how they pleasurably spur creativity.

If you want complete freedom to do whatever shit you want, there's always RL.

Yeah but most of them are DEX/CHA biased in WotR (no STR/INT companions). I normally just play with companions but this time I'm considering mercs.

 

[Sharpedge]

Bowling infusion, and it's the only one that matters.

Good to see we're in agreement then. I'm not sure what the point of everything else is.

The point is that you keep bringing up irrelevant things as arguments against the power of the Kineticist. You put forth the Sirocco Sorcerer as a counterexample, but he has a lower BAB and no iteratives either. You would naturally object to anyone bringing those up when discussing the sorceror's power, so I can't understand why you do that for the Kineticist.

This is beneath you.

I said that people were mistaking the (broken) power of persistent AoE effects for the power of the class itself.

Neither Kin nor Sorc is the strongest class in the game properly played, they just both have access to that broken effect. It is kind of perverse that Owlcat intensified their error by removing the Form Save from those exact Forms but that just accentuates my point.

One of the more underrated persistent AoE effects is Mass Icy Prison. From memory I don't think that there are any enemies which have counters to it in Pathfinder. You can just cast it, then kite stuff around and shoot if you desire to do so. Enemies will never catch you because their movement is too slow. It falls into the "heavy cheese" category. Btw, a few pages back you mentioned clerics don't have any persistent AoEs, they have 2 (although I think you just forgot), Blade Barrier and Polar Midnight although obviously neither of them fall into the same tier of silliness as Sirocco.

 

[Xamenos]

This is beneath you.

I do it because I care. I am fare more intolerant of bad arguments used by otherwise reasonable people to support conclusions I agree with. I know you can do better than that, or I wouldn't bother that much. I know stupid people can't be reasoned with.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Yeah but most of them are DEX/CHA biased in WotR (no STR/INT companions). I normally just play with companions but this time I'm considering mercs.

Seelah and Lann both have high Str, and I think there are one or two companions with ~14 Int. Lann doesn't wear armor either so he's a great Athletics/Mobility bot for skill checks.
Of course I've been playing a Str/Int build Magus so it's less pronounced for me, I suppose.

 

[Ontopoly]

Yeah but most of them are DEX/CHA biased in WotR (no STR/INT companions). I normally just play with companions but this time I'm considering mercs.

Seelah and Lann both have high Str, and I think there are one or two companions with ~14 Int. Lann doesn't wear armor either so he's a great Athletics/Mobility bot for skill checks.
Of course I've been playing a Str/Int build Magus so it's less pronounced for me, I suppose.

Does seelah seem like she'll be Romanceable?

 

[Dodo1610]

Yeah but most of them are DEX/CHA biased in WotR (no STR/INT companions). I normally just play with companions but this time I'm considering mercs.

Seelah and Lann both have high Str, and I think there are one or two companions with ~14 Int. Lann doesn't wear armor either so he's a great Athletics/Mobility bot for skill checks.
Of course I've been playing a Str/Int build Magus so it's less pronounced for me, I suppose.

Does seelah seem like she'll be Romanceable?

No she is not.

 

[Desiderius]

This is beneath you.

I do it because I care.

Much appreciated. Whatever, just talking past each other.

 

[Desiderius]

Yeah but most of them are DEX/CHA biased in WotR (no STR/INT companions). I normally just play with companions but this time I'm considering mercs.

Seelah and Lann both have high Str, and I think there are one or two companions with ~14 Int. Lann doesn't wear armor either so he's a great Athletics/Mobility bot for skill checks.
Of course I've been playing a Str/Int build Magus so it's less pronounced for me, I suppose.

It's definitely unbalanced now (due to Ember's Archetype and Regill's build) but we haven't met half of the companions yet. As Lawn said, there are workarounds even with those companions. Mercs just aren't a fit for what the designers are doing. They should be a last resort, not your go to move.

It's like putting your Kingdom Management on auto. You're missing out on more than you think you are.

 

[Desiderius]

Lann wants to stack WIS since he has WIS to hit (DEX more or less doesn't matter to him at all, other than number of AoOs/turn.

He's a better fit for the WIS-based skills, with someone else for Atheltics/Mobility. Mobility Trickster gets +50% speed with Acrobatics (instead of -50%), so that seems like a good candidate there.

 

[Desiderius]

Btw, a few pages back you mentioned clerics don't have any persistent AoEs, they have 2 (although I think you just forgot), Blade Barrier and Polar Midnight although obviously neither of them fall into the same tier of silliness as Sirocco.

No you're totally right. What is even up with Blade Barrier? Is it even castable without slicing up your own team?

 

[Desiderius]

Neither Kin nor Sorc is the strongest class in the game properly played, they just both have access to that broken effect. It is kind of perverse that Owlcat intensified their error by removing the Form Save from those exact Forms but that just accentuates my point.

What is broken is the "kill kill, lets walk into this deadly earth/sirroco/cloud/fog zone" AI. Only the dumbest undead/constructs should act that way. Even bestial animals should not walk into this death zone.

Sneak attacks are the unique broken thing on this game. Getting 6 sneaks attacks with hellfire ray makes no sense.

Sneaks are unreliable chip damage. Git gud.

Persistent effects aren't just about the AI. Have you tried dealing with a Plague Storm dropped on top of you while you're fighting 8 ghosts or some shit? My whole team had Forts Saves in the high 30s. Didn't matter.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Lann wants to stack WIS since he has WIS to hit (DEX more or less doesn't matter to him at all, other than number of AoOs/turn.

He's a better fit for the WIS-based skills, with someone else for Atheltics/Mobility. Mobility Trickster gets +50% speed with Acrobatics (instead of -50%), so that seems like a good candidate there.

Obviously it depends on your party, there are lots of Dex options so Mobility is fairly easy to cover. Athletics is harder I find, because most Strength builds are going to have an armor penalty. My Magus is OK since I have a mithral chain shirt but he'll be in heavier armor eventually so he may not necessarily always be the best in the party even with good Str and maxed Athletics.

 

[Sharpedge]

Btw, a few pages back you mentioned clerics don't have any persistent AoEs, they have 2 (although I think you just forgot), Blade Barrier and Polar Midnight although obviously neither of them fall into the same tier of silliness as Sirocco.

No you're totally right. What is even up with Blade Barrier? Is it even castable without slicing up your own team?

It has very limited usefulness if its not used preemptively. You can layer 6 or 7 of them on the ground on top of each other and then pull enemies on the other side. They will mindlessly charge through and just delete themselves. It does so much raw damage when used this way it basically instant deletes any boss, but its really cheesy and it skips any interaction with fight mechanics. When not used in this specific way it is very hard to justify using though.

*Edit, I found a video showing just this (Final boss spoilers) - https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder...l_boss_on_unfair_vs_72_blade_barriers_from_4/

 

[Cryomancer]

Persistent effects aren't just about the AI. Have you tried dealing with a Plague Storm dropped on top of you while you're fighting 8 ghosts or some shit? My whole team had Forts Saves in the high 30s. Didn't matter.

Never had any problem. Dispel works with AoE?

 

[purpleblob]

Yeah but most of them are DEX/CHA biased in WotR (no STR/INT companions). I normally just play with companions but this time I'm considering mercs.

Seelah and Lann both have high Str, and I think there are one or two companions with ~14 Int. Lann doesn't wear armor either so he's a great Athletics/Mobility bot for skill checks.
Of course I've been playing a Str/Int build Magus so it's less pronounced for me, I suppose.

It's definitely unbalanced now (due to Ember's Archetype and Regill's build) but we haven't met half of the companions yet. As Lawn said, there are workarounds even with those companions. Mercs just aren't a fit for what the designers are doing. They should be a last resort, not your go to move.

It's like putting your Kingdom Management on auto. You're missing out on more than you think you are.

I think its Sosiel and Seelah with decent STR, not Lann but I could be wrong.

What do you mean we haven't met half of the companions? There are 11 in WotR and you get 8 in alpha. So only missing 3.

As I said, I prefer having companions but I might make 1 merc to cover some much needed skill checks.

There were so many high DC checks and only Lann and Woljif were performing consistently. Camellia is particularly bad with trickery. Most of companions get 3 skill points per level so it is rather difficult to cover them all.

 

[Lawntoilet]

I think its Sosiel and Seelah with decent STR, not Lann but I could be wrong.

Lann has 17 Str and 17 Dex.

 

[Desiderius]

Persistent effects aren't just about the AI. Have you tried dealing with a Plague Storm dropped on top of you while you're fighting 8 ghosts or some shit? My whole team had Forts Saves in the high 30s. Didn't matter.

Never had any problem. Dispel works with AoE?

Heh, forgot about that. Probably since my Dispeller has sadly passed away by that point. Currently back to CotW playthrough which will have Sensei Kanerah at that point for Mass Disease Immunity.

 

[FranticDistortion]

I'd love if more RPGs had companions like Vhailor, Kreia, Kutsuragi, Alistair/Morrigan who get most of their development through their reactions to players choices, game's events and environment, instead of being just a list of questions you can go through and forget about until/after their (usually single) side-quest.
A lot of companions in Kingmaker suffered from it, there were only 3-4 decent ones (Harrim was the best imo) .
Less companions with more effort put into them would be a better approach.

 

[Desiderius]

As I said, I prefer having companions but I might make 1 merc to cover some much needed skill checks.

It’s one skill that does nothing in combat. If the Succubus is Espionage Expert they’ll probably give her a point buy like Jaethal and she’ll have Athletics as a class skill. Totally not worth Mercing just for that.

C’mon, SOS is STR-based and has Touch of Good. You’re trippin’.

Over/Under on final # of companions is 14.

 

[Desiderius]

I'd love if more RPGs had companions like Vhailor, Kreia, Kutsuragi, Alistair/Morrigan who get most of their development through their reactions to players choices, game's events and environment, instead of being just a list of questions you can go through and forget about until/after their (usually single) side-quest.
A lot of companions in Kingmaker suffered from it, there were only 3-4 decent ones (Harrim was the best imo) .
Less companions with more effort put into them would be a better approach.

Each companion had at least two side quests, most three.

 

[Lawntoilet]

I'd love if more RPGs had companions like Vhailor, Kreia, Kutsuragi, Alistair/Morrigan who get most of their development through their reactions to players choices, game's events and environment, instead of being just a list of questions you can go through and forget about until/after their (usually single) side-quest.

I agree.

Less companions with more effort put into them would be a better approach.

 

[The_Mask]

Less companions with more effort put into them would be a better approach.

How about lots of companions that are cool?