Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Owlcat's next Pathfinder RPG - now in ALPHA

Kingmaker has inflated stats and isn't representative of the system. Like at all. If the only thing separating Magus and other spellcasters are the high spell circles, there's definitely some other issue going on.

 

Magus are amazing melee casters but not full casters. If you make all casters half casters, why someone would even play with a full caster when they can play as a half caster and get all powerful melee abilities with all spells? Did you ever played a single caster character? Why you wanna so hard to take otehr people fun? See 4e. Spells are lackluster. Nobody wanna that again.

 

Pure spellcasters can have other bonuses to compensate, like faster damage scaling on spells if it turns out they can't compete with hybrids. Those hybrids can also have a more limited spell selection, up to spell circle 4 maybe. That's not an issue at all. The idea is to remove the ridiculous and badly designed high level spells that transform a mage into a debug console.

 

PF kingmaker and WotR is the unique modern games which allow people who enjoy powerful magic to use powerful magic. Why you wanna destroy other's people fun so hard for the sake of Sawyerism? Nobody likes wizards on PoE1/2.

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https://forum.owlcatgames.com/t/heres-a-summary-of-the-twitch-q-a-from-may-8-2020/19974

Looks like they understood how time should be in this type of game. Consequences for failing but no longer insta fail.

 

So, yes, it's just like I said. It's being overpowered for the sake of being overpowered. Big surprise there.

 

Alpha leveling speed was closer to P:K Procedural Dungeon speed than P:K base game speed.

 

No, look to the pathfinder kingmaker builds thread. Over 99% of builds are martial builds, when they use spells, is to buff characters. https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/pathfinder-kingmaker-builds-and-strats-thread.124160/

The best builds are already martial ones. You will gonna take out the unique good thing from sorcerers/wizards? Why not take out barbarian rage too? High level magic should be powerful. The balance cult/sawyerism is why we have so few good RPG's. Fun, challenge and immersion > balance. Mainly in a SP game. But lets suppose that Paizo or Owncat decides to remove all tier 7-9 spells. Do you not think that the one of the most popular mods will restore those spells? Do you really think that anyone will play as a sorcerer over a kineticist or a magus? Everyone who enjoys play as wizard will just play as alchemist.

You clearly hate other people having fun.

 

Isn't the entire point of playing a pure spellcaster to be a pathetic weakling early game so you can become insanely strong late game? If you remove the latter part then I see no reason to bother with the pure spellcasters at all.

 

Like what do you even want to do in low level CRPG?

You have 6 characters who spammed attacks because there is jack shit you can do at early level. This is not PnP where you can do some stupid shit in combat. In BG, NWN, NWN2, even in PfK most of the early games are spent just doing auto-attack with all party members. You are better off having 5 fighters and 1 rogue for skill monkey than any other classes because you are doing jack shit with your class features early game. It is like watching paint dries. And the enemies are also mostly auto-attack bots.

I can't even fathom about enjoying that kind of shit. The best moment for these games are in the mid-level range. You have tools to play, enemies got interesting tools to play, nobody is stupidly OP just yet. In Pathfinder I think Level 7 - 14 is a good spot.

 

Prerelease Q&A continues to please. I’d be content with this game being either two-thirds or half as long as Kingmaker if the branching reactivity is delivered.

 

Lacrymas you’re gonna love the optional final chapter of Kingmaker.

 

I think the appeal of low level CRPGs is that you have to use different tactics from 'destroy everything with your mage' and 'buff party, kill everything' you die incredibly quickly and so does the enemy which makes encounters very fast paced. The world also feels more dangerous when you and your gang are weaklings.

I fully agree though, that mid level is more interesting but I think this is the reason why some prefer low level.

 

I think mid level (8-12ish) is the sweet spot, enough spells and tactics to be interesting, but less one spell save or die shit that can finish the combat in one round.

 

You can't have challenge without a semblance of (asymmetrical) balance, sorry. Fun comes from being challenged.

By the time you are level 3, you already have this gigantic list of spells -

And that's only for 1 character.

This is the other half of the list -

I think I'm absolutely fair about the number of options you have at spell circle 6.

 

I really hope (and think) that's only for the sake of testing. Beneath the Stolen Lands levelling speed was insane.

 

Well, high level gameplay on 2e was dangerous. After lv 10, you get almost no hit points. That means that a single acid rain casted by a enemy wizard can destroy your party. On 3.5e, WotC had the genial idea of giving a d12 to certain classes per level up. So even with 10 CON, a lv 20 barbarian would have 130 hp on average.

Asymmetrical balance is a contradiction. Fun comes from not always being the same thing. Killing goblins and kobolds with auto attack is not fun or engaging.

Correction. A wizard NEEDS to find this scrolls. And it is a list only for wizards. You ignored the warlock ultra limited list. Ignored the sorcerer limited list. Fighters have a lot of magical weapons to find, but is not honest to assume that a fighter has a complete arsenal of magical weapons, just like is not honest to assume that the wizard have a complete spellbook.

". But after about 4th level, spell scrolls become pants-on-head stupid expensive. You could literally build two and a half Staffs of Power for the price of scribing one 9th level spell. " https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/7c3s1q/xanthars_spell_scroll_pricing_is_insane/

Instead of "casters are op", you should say "wizards, with at lv 20 and unlimited money to have a library of all scrolls on existence are op"

And how OP a fighter with a hired mercenary army costing the same thing would be?

 

I would move the window a bit closer to lower levels. Probably somethings like 5 - 12. At level 5 you reach level 3 spells and already have plenty of tools at your disposal (you have strong buffs and debuffs, strong blasts and strong control spells).

 

I agree. I must admit, I'd prefer it if CRPGs started you at level 4 or 5 (or equivalent) and moved very, VERY slowly to lvl 15 or something. Low level is boring, high level is boring. Mid level is best, with a long time to really get to know intimately all the tricks you're capable of. The fiction of being a nonentity starting from scratch doesn't really sit well with the fiction that you're ANY sort of class to begin with.

Progression is also over-rated - I mean, it's got to be there of course, but the idea that you have to have some kind of shiny new prize and a fanfare every five minutes has ruined a good chunk of gaming. Especially when developers push out expansions and have to scrape the bottom of the barrel looking for new things to be or do at Level Gorillion. Progression should be slow but significant, with meaningful upgrades. "New shiny thing every five minutes" should be handled by treasure, crafting, conversation and story, etc.

 

That's exactly because you don't actually need "builds" to stomp everything as high level mage - you have awesome button.

 

The Warlock spell list is clearly visible on that pic. Here's the sorcerer at lvl 3 -

The world is full of asymmetrically balanced games and that's not a contradiction. Starcraft for example.

It's not only Wizards, Clerics and Druids are also god-tier. Divine Souls, Shamans, and Sorcerers just have a limited way to nuke the entire world. It's definitely casters.

 

There are no awesome/win buttons on this games. In fact, a high tier spell can be OP in a encounter and useless in other. The problem is people who NEVER played a pure arcane caster thinking that is OP without even trying it.

A lv 3 sorcerer can know only 4 spells. http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/sorcerer

The fact that there are a lot to chose doesn't change the fact that you are looking into lv 20 wizard with unlimited money to purchase extremely expensive scrolls and not to the average wizard.

 

its possible for him to learn some of them but impossible to learn all of them.
what are you even trying to prove? that they have options in character creation?

 

Yep; he is trying to say something like

"lets make pure arcane casters into half casters without the half casters class benefit because i who never played as a arcane caster believe that a wizards can learn every spell in existence for free and that other casters have the same versatility of a wizard. Everyone needs to autoattack every turn because is my idea of fun. Doesn't matter if all good unfair solo builds are martial on the game. You should be prohibited to have fun if you enjoy using powerful magic in a high fantasy game."

 

That there are enough options even at lvl 3. Limiting the spell circles to 6 is not a big deal.