Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Owlcat's next Pathfinder RPG - now in ALPHA

And fighter can't just delete encounter. That's why they need "builds" to be able to do something. compared to "i have 3 lvl 9 spells - i already won 3 battles until i need to rest"

 

It won't take long for the existing Pathfinder modbase to adjust and deliver the same caliber of mods that exist for Kingmaker. They ought to be aware of the expectations people have for it, the litany of Q&A questions and the fact it was a social goal attest to that. Owlcat is nothing if not eager to please, art-asset integration should be a given. But given the shitload of stretch goal features that need to be implemented and integrated with one another, their efforts are better spent elsewhere for the time being.

That's not necessarily true, a good mod framework can still arise later if enough resources are devoted to the prospect, and I'm willing to bet their changes to the engine and testing process includes a greater degree of freedom for alteration than Kingmaker ever did. We shouldn't expect to hear anything concrete about it for a long time, though. Especially if they're crazy enough to try and deliver on the pipe-dream of dedicated Module and Campaign creation.

 

Why someone would play wizard over alchemist? Alchemists has way more powerful stuff and can cast circle 6. Please. Go play a game as a pure arcane caster before having sawyerism ideas

Not true. You can end trash fights with tier 9 spells but you will not defeat spawn of rovagug with a tier 9 spell. And the fighter can autoattack the enemies while take no damage on the same trash encounter without any problem.

Also, a lot of enemies has way high SR(spell resistance) in the game. So you need spells like Tsunami(tier 9) to deal any damage on then. Acid fog is useful vs those enemies too but you need to apply metamagic on it because it deals too little damage and some enemies has acid resistance and magical resistance.

Kineticists has way more damage than any tier 9 spell and doesn't even need to rest to re cast their cloud/deadly earth/etc. And they infusions aren't subjected to spell resistance.

Again, i HATE this idea of "nerf".

On BF1, i got killed a lot by m1917 telescopic and i decided to use the weapon for myself rather than asking nerf to ruin other's people fun. In a MP game. In a SP game, even if casters are OP, it only affects those who play as casters.

 

Oh noes! I can't kill one certain near-invincible thing solo with one spell! Not awesome enough!

 

I an not complaining. Of course a spawn of the God of destruction which even Gods could't defeat, only lure to a trap and imprison should be insane deadly and harder to be killed. My critique is that is rather not seeing sorcerers/wizards than having wizards who are just alchemists without all alchemist stuff. And that i prefer not having something than having something completely nerfed.

Point made, if Owlcat removes tier 7 to 9 spells or people will un nerf arcane casters like they did with spell fixes for NWN2 or everyone will play as kineticists. Even DDO which has AWFUL arcane casters, din't took away high tier magic for any arcane class.

 

No, only those who want awesome button.

 

Persistent AoE effects, most of which are spell-based, are OP. For both sides. It’s why Ghost Mages are such a pain.

 

Like I said before, hybrids will have even a lower spell circle max, like 4. Or the damage scaling of Wizards and Sorcerers is going to be faster. That doesn't matter much and it's a matter of number tweaking. I have played pure spellcasters, that's why I know they need reining in. Casters being this broken affects the other classes much more than the campaign itself. A PnP campaign can always be adapted to the players, but a video game can't be, so balancing around the idea you'll have access to these god-tier spells hurts all the classes who don't have access to them.

 

I found casters in third edition games already a lot weaker than their AD&D counterparts from BG1/2. Is the class balance in PF:KM not ok ? Pure fighters/rangers/barbarians can hold their own so what exactly is the problem with casters ? What is the obvious cheese that casters have there ?

 

Yep. Because wanting powerful magic in a high fantasy game is wanting awesome button, just like fallout new vegas should only have the .38 revolver because how dare people are of wanting to use cool firearms in a shooter/RPG game? RPG's should be always about fast swinging blades /sarcasm

Don't seem so. Please. Mention this high level spells on kingmaker which can break any encounter and are stronger even than infusions and barbarians raging with a +5 weapon and potion buffs. I wanna know who they are.

Me too. 2e casters was near godlike.

But people here seems to love 4e sawyerism.

 

The idea that casters are cheese is a combination of

(1) persistent AoE effects being cheese so you have vids of casters soloing

(2) a lack of experience in trying to beat saves and penetrate resistances and manage rest on higher difficulties

I always had difficulty convincing myself to even bother with it in lieu of buff and bash, with Linzi Dispelling as necessary.

 

I was curious, and looking it seems that is true you cannot kill it with a tier 9 spell... you have to use a tier 4 spell!

https://steamcommunity.com/app/640820/discussions/0/1645418344567598037/

Now, reading further, they may have patched out this method, but is quite interesting. I also have seen some other examples of sorcerers builds, even solo build, being able to kill it. Pretty cool stuff.

I'll say while the argument of balancing the classes have some merit (Pathfinder itself suffers from the same issue of "Ivory Tower" design inspired by MTG as D&D 3.5), I actually disagree that Owcalt should remove anything. They are offering a faithful adaptation of Pathfinder and removing such an important element would be wrong and even hurt the already precarious balance the game has.

Summoning

 

Summoning i agree but you don't need to take out tier 7-9 spells.

I mean, on 3.5e, the rule to summoning is that you can control your caster level * 2 hit dice worth of creatures. That means that a Efreet with 10 hit dices can't be controled by any caster with lesser level than 5. And a lv 15 sorcerer can control up to 30 1 hit dice skeletons or 3 Efreets. That limit IMO should be on Pathfinder wrath of the righteous. Dread necromancer is the exception to that rule. He can have HD * 4 controlled undeads.

A 4th tier spell and a lot of workaround to have a pretty high DC, a great easy to miss rod and even after it, is more likely that the spell will not kill the guy...

Yep. A lot of spells are amazing on low difficulty and useless on high. Eg - Stoneskin. 10 DR is amazing when enemies deal 10-20 damage but is worthless when enemies deals 80 damage. You still will gonna be one/two hit killed on unfair.

Sirroco, on normal is almost a easy button. On unfair, requires so much work to work...

 

Unless that same limitation is in PF, then I probably doubt Owlcat will implement it (unless too many summons create issues with framerate/game stability)

Oh, c'mon, you said it was not possible, just showed you it could, even if is hard. And it is one hitting the guy, literally killing it in one blow! Is hard but kind of neat.

Other random method someone posted

"A sorcerer/AT can solo the fight. Distract the bosses using summons. then use true strike+hellfire ray+Grandmaster's Rod x 3, the Spawn should go down after 3 strikes, unless u miss. After that, the dragon is no big deal."

Don't know if that could work, though, you probably know better than me.

 

Most of caster cheese is only possible due to poor a.i. Instead of nerfing casters they should improve the response of the a.i. to spells. I think that would eliminate a large case of the "casters are easy mode" stuff. It's a shame that there is barely any progress in that area.

 

You understand that without support from other characters and proper build fighter can't facetank it too?

 

Arcane casters can be cheese even without the 7-9 spell circles? Unbelievable! Nobody mentioned this before now or even knew about it! And why exactly are we talking about Unfair? That mode has ridiculously bloated stats, it's not representative of the system at all.

 

This is Eldritch Scoundrel using it against Fire-Immune mob:



So yeah, pretty good bet it would work.

 

Don't drag Mr Sawyer into that discussion. Lacrymas argues that Pathfinder is bloated, high levels are boring and spellcasters are overpowered and should be nerfed only for the sake of BG 3. Because he shill for it with all his heart but deep inside knows that with lvl 10 cap and castrated 5e it will look like utter shit in comparison to WotR, in the scope of character-building options at least.

 

Wait, bg3 is tb AND with lvl 10 cap? Incline!

 

Thanks for the pic. Damn, that's pretty crazy.

 

Yep. It is possible. I just said that is not representative of the average gamer.

This. And applies to non casters too. Why enemies walk in the direction of Deadly Earth?

Solasta will be lv cap = 10 too.

So people who wanna autoattack with fast swinging blades and never face a enemy like a lich or a adult dragon, can have that experience. But let people who wanna a true pathfinder experience have that experience. I can't play as a powerful sorcerer in any other modern game.

I an bringing him to the discussion exactly because spell casting on their most recent games are TRASH. You can't do anything interesting. Even with a 9th tier spell. And a perk that gives 3% damage reduction from shock on outer worlds is muh balanced.

Last time WoTC listened to this "lets nerf everything" crowde, we got D&D 4e. And Pathfinder 2e is trash exactly by listening to the same crowd. What makes Pathfinder and D&D great is that new classes are made by the new class fans. So you don't have a team deciding on butchering everything. You have caster fans designing casters, kineticist fans designing kineticists and so on. Lets be honest, if was up to myself to design the fighter class in a TTRPG, it would be so awful as if Lacrymas design a sorcerer class.

 

I don't see the lie. This has nothing to do with BG3 though, you are projecting.

 

EVERY modern game has awesome button, so you can play as a powerful sorcerer in ANY modern game. it doesn't even need to be an rpg.

 

Sorry, but YOUR sorcerer class sound boring as fuck. You are not trying to make him interesting, just OP.