PbtA Games - thoughts?

[Dustin DePenning]

New here. Seems like a large but very unique community. I was watching you guys rip into FFG SW and wondered how you felt about other game systems. First on my list: Apocalypse World/Dungeon World.

What do you guys think of post-story games like these?

 

[L'ennui]

Dungeon World is great if your players' imaginations and souls have yet to be crushed into dust by D&D.

It's easy to teach to new players, it's incredibly fluid in play and most of all it relies on, and rewards, actually thinking what your character does in the fiction instead of just saying "I attack the Codexer with my sword" ever so often.

I would point you to a wonderful document called Dungeon World Guide: it's a good and short primer of what the system is about.

Dungeon World Guide - Curufea

 

[mutonizer]

Dungeon World is great if your players' imaginations and souls have yet to be crushed into dust by D&D.
It's easy to teach to new players, it's incredibly fluid in play and most of all it relies on, and rewards, actually thinking what your character does in the fiction instead of just saying "I attack the Codexer with my sword" ever so often.
I would point you to a wonderful document called Dungeon World Guide: it's a good and short primer of what the system is about.
Dungeon World Guide - Curufea

I have no idea what are PbtA games or FFS SW but geeebus, I browsed through that Guide and this is the most retarded RPG crap I've read in a long time, maybe even worst than the moronic "yes, and.." bullshit that's been spreading for a while. I know it takes all to make a world but come on, wtf kind of shit is this. Nearly all the examples of play the guy provides that I've checked are complete narration of shit the players never seemed to actually want to do. And what about this constant fixation on "keeping it moving, move, move, keep going forward!". And the long example of play at the end...W..T...F...Are these 8 years old? No wait, that's insulting to 8 years old. They're not playing a RPG, they're playing a board game or some shit.

 

[L'ennui]

See OP, the fact that it triggers this kind of reaction in enraged munchkins should tell you that the game does something right!

 

[mutonizer]

See OP, the fact that it triggers this kind of reaction in enraged munchkins should tell you that the game does something right!

Well I don' rate Grosbills/Munckins very high either to be honest, nor would play with one but I'd still say slighty higher than what's described in the guide you provided because it's just a style that doen't try pretend it is something it's not.

And I'm not talking mechanics here, that's just whatever suits your boat. I'm talking the pseudo-intello masturbating bullshit the writer keeps shitting out page after page while not only he can't write for shit, clearly has no imagination whatsoever, can't direct a game for shit nor has any idea how to and clearly can't roleplay for shit nor narrate anything either.

I mean, have you fucking read the guide you linked?

 

[Dustin DePenning]

So the take away here is that like most things, pbta is super contentious. Lol.

I'm actually a big fan, but that's by playing it. Not based upon reading or the guide. I was just curious how you guys felt about the mechanics. Thanks for responding with such diverse opinions

 

[Quigs]

Rules light RPGs are a product of the environment they were created in : Gaming conventions. Smaller developers don't have a few hundred reliable playtesters on standby, so they run playtests at conventions to strangers. When you've got 4 hours to go from complete ignorance of rules when you sit down, to a completed scenario when you stand up, rules light RPGs are great. They just tend to fall apart when played in a continuous campaign.

 

[Dustin DePenning]

Rules light RPGs are a product of the environment they were created in : Gaming conventions. Smaller developers don't have a few hundred reliable playtesters on standby, so they run playtests at conventions to strangers. When you've got 4 hours to go from complete ignorance of rules when you sit down, to a completed scenario when you stand up, rules light RPGs are great. They just tend to fall apart when played in a continuous campaign.

Generally I agree. But i played in a DW campaign for five months and had a blast. I found it scaled pretty well across time.

 

[mutonizer]

[..]Gaming conventions

Ahhh yea ok. That explains a lot. Random people, high chance of mental, social and speech impairements, lack of filtering, highly disturbing environment, short time and one shot. That's a good mix for what was described as an example of play in the guide provided.

Good call. Didn't think about that.

Ah well, to each his own I guess, especially in RPGs.

 

[L'ennui]

Rules light RPGs are a product of the environment they were created in : Gaming conventions. Smaller developers don't have a few hundred reliable playtesters on standby, so they run playtests at conventions to strangers. When you've got 4 hours to go from complete ignorance of rules when you sit down, to a completed scenario when you stand up, rules light RPGs are great. They just tend to fall apart when played in a continuous campaign.

All of this is demonstrably false.

 

[Quigs]

Let's say the hero is trying to climb up a cliff; he rolls +STR and gets an 8. He's definitely not falling off the cliff, so what happens? Here are a couple ideas, from a quick look at the GM Moves: ...Use up eir Resources: he spends a use of his Adventuring Gear in the form of rope, hooks, and pitons. ...Tell the Requirements and Ask: he gets halfway up and realizes that he's too heavy; he must drop something or turn back. ...Deal Damage: he has a few tumbles along the way; give him some scrapes and bruises along with some hp loss.

... Wile E. Coyote it: Hand the player a book of gravity and watch them plummet to the earth below.

 

[mutonizer]

Hmmm, I checked a bit further into Dungeon World and it's not actually a RPG which explains a lot. It's more akin to a board game mixed with some of the collective narrative concepts from artsy games like Amber. I mean, players can dictate events outside their character roles, the MC (very different from a GM) can also controls the players' characters quite often and all that not from the usual bad GMing/players, but as dictacted by the rules.
Taken as such, could be fun I guess and especially for quick one shots when nobody gives much of a fuck about world cohesion, story building and whatnot.

Need lotta beers though, I remember everyone needing a lot of beers back in the day to "play" Amber...

 

[Dustin DePenning]

Hmmm, I checked a bit further into Dungeon World and it's not actually a RPG which explains a lot. It's more akin to a board game mixed with some of the collective narrative concepts from artsy games like Amber. I mean, players can dictate events outside their character roles, the MC (very different from a GM) can also controls the players' characters quite often and all that not from the usual bad GMing/players, but as dictacted by the rules.
Taken as such, could be fun I guess and especially for quick one shots when nobody gives much of a fuck about world cohesion, story building and whatnot.

Need lotta beers though, I remember everyone needing a lot of beers back in the day to "play" Amber...

When I played DW felt a lot like an rpg. We still told a story. We still made choices. The game world reacted to what we did and how well we did it. What about it makes it not an RPG to you?

 

[Dustin DePenning]

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgamedesigner/67645/dustin-depenning

get out

I apologize that I try to make games. I guess playing DND for 10 years before that doesn't count now.

 

[Dustin DePenning]

There's also this smaller page to crap on

https://rpggeek.com/rpgdesigner/67645/dustin-depenning

 

[Dustin DePenning]

Mercy me! I've been discovered. After I went through all that trouble of hiding behind my real name. I guess I should climb back into the disgusting pit where wretched people who have hobbies for jobs belong.

 

[mutonizer]

Well...yea, also probably need that high horse or something? Anyway, you asked "you guys" something, you got "you guys" answered in quite many different ways.
Bored dude from Quebec loves it, some other weird dudes hate it, I think it's retarded but accept that there are lotta retarded people out there.

Still wondering what the fuck is a "post story" game though. That's some post-neo-new age shit?

(edited and stuff for words..)

 

[Dustin DePenning]

Well...yea, also probably need that high horse or something? Anyway, you asked "you guys" something, you got "you guys" answered in quite many different ways.
Bored dude from Quebec loves it, some other weird dudes hate it, I think it's retarded but accept that there are lotta retarded people out there.

Still wondering what the fuck is a "post story" game though. That's some post-neo-new age shit?

(edited and stuff for words..)

I love all the opinions, tbh. To me, a post story game is one that bridges between pure story games like fiasco or my life with master and tries to incorporate classic play patterns from OS games like DND.

 

[Quigs]

Mercy me! I've been discovered. After I went through all that trouble of hiding behind my real name. I guess I should climb back into the disgusting pit where wretched people who have hobbies for jobs belong.

Shithead, no one here works for you, and you've contributed precisely fuck all to the codex otherwise. Gain some social currency, donate to the server costs before pulling this bullshit again, or fuck off. Acting like sarcastic self righteous cunt because TGA called you out earns you fucking nothing.

 

[mutonizer]

Ok, I'll spill some beans in.

DnD is by nature a roleplaying game. The split between the playing of roles (actors) and director (GM) is there as a core part of the mechanics. How you play that role is a question of style (from pure Munchkin to hardcore roleplayer), but that fact remains anyway.
All the games you mentioned are not roleplaying games per se. They are basically freeform narrative improv', which is totally fine for some people but have not much in common really. The appeal of one is contradictory to the appeal of the other in many ways. In freeform narration, everyone controls the story at some point even far outside the reach of his assigned or self appointed role, if any, not so in what you call classic play patterns (not arguing weird playstyles here, purely core mechanics) where even if one plays many roles, they each mechanically are restricted to them individually.


Overall I think it's a flawed idea because pure story as you say calls for the complete liberation of one's imaginative mind within a group creative process. It's great, but that's also why it sucks and I think is dangerous when it doesn't suck.
It sucks because it's very very hard to do properly and with some quality, a reason why most if not all are utterly retarded (like the example provided, which are an insult to "story games" really) or fall into stupid comedy (like all improv'). Most people just cannot do it. And I mean they suck really, really bad. To be able to express yourself in a clear eloquent constructive way verbally without any preparation while making it an interesting narratively for an entire group of people, while leaving hooks open for others to rebound on, while not hogging the spotlight, is INSANELY hard....or, as I said before, you need a LOT of beer for everyone...
It's dangerous also because unlike "classic play patterns" which are pretty good equalizers of social classes/conditions/education and you know who's gonna lead the game before even stepping in, story games are by nature prone to idelogical group think and/or personality cult behaviors. It's just what happens in these situations where people just "talk". Usually it's some remnant of 60s hippie bullshit and that's fine but never forget that Charlie Manson wasn't the top dog of random people, but of 60s hippies. They "prep" people under the pretense of "games" and that's a bad recipe once you put an alpha male in there...

So yea, I think it misses the point of both RPGs and Story games to try and mix the two

 

[Dustin DePenning]

Shithead, no one here works for you, and you've contributed precisely fuck all to the codex otherwise. Gain some social currency, donate to the server costs before pulling this bullshit again, or fuck off. Acting like sarcastic self righteous cunt because TGA called you out earns you fucking nothing.

Honestly, I thought a curious opinion thread was just getting to know the community. I'm not trying to get free work out of anyone. Sorry it's so threatening.

 

[Dustin DePenning]

Ok, I'll spill some beans in.

DnD is by nature a roleplaying game. The split between the playing of roles (actors) and director (GM) is there as a core part of the mechanics. How you play that role is a question of style (from pure Munchkin to hardcore roleplayer), but that fact remains anyway.
All the games you mentioned are not roleplaying games per se. They are basically freeform narrative improv', which is totally fine for some people but have not much in common really. The appeal of one is contradictory to the appeal of the other in many ways. In freeform narration, everyone controls the story at some point even far outside the reach of his assigned or self appointed role, if any, not so in what you call classic play patterns (not arguing weird playstyles here, purely core mechanics) where even if one plays many roles, they each mechanically are restricted to them individually.


Overall I think it's a flawed idea because pure story as you say calls for the complete liberation of one's imaginative mind within a group creative process. It's great, but that's also why it sucks and I think is dangerous when it doesn't suck.
It sucks because it's very very hard to do properly and with some quality, a reason why most if not all are utterly retarded (like the example provided, which are an insult to "story games" really) or fall into stupid comedy (like all improv'). Most people just cannot do it. And I mean they suck really, really bad. To be able to express yourself in a clear eloquent constructive way verbally without any preparation while making it an interesting narratively for an entire group of people, while leaving hooks open for others to rebound on, while not hogging the spotlight, is INSANELY hard....or, as I said before, you need a LOT of beer for everyone...
It's dangerous also because unlike "classic play patterns" which are pretty good equalizers of social classes/conditions/education and you know who's gonna lead the game before even stepping in, story games are by nature prone to idelogical group think and/or personality cult behaviors. It's just what happens in these situations where people just "talk". Usually it's some remnant of 60s hippie bullshit and that's fine but never forget that Charlie Manson wasn't the top dog of random people, but of 60s hippies. They "prep" people under the pretense of "games" and that's a bad recipe once you put an alpha male in there...

So yea, I think it misses the point of both RPGs and Story games to try and mix the two

Not the first time I've heard that opinion. Some people really hate DW. to each his own.

 

[mutonizer]

Not the first time I've heard that opinion. Some people really hate DW. to each his own.

Yep, which is great!...

...but that doesn't stop it from being retarded

 

[Dustin DePenning]

I'm not making a pbta game. I think it's a little lame that's all people make these days, even if I like the format. I was just curious because it's on a spectrum similar to ffg sw, and you guys really didn't like that game either. So I was curious how it all fell together. Got my answers and I'm happy.

Sorry didn't realize there was a newbie thread and donation expectation. Just wanted to see what was up here. I'll just read and post in other threads.

 

[mutonizer]

I'm not making a pbta game[..]

Thank fuck because I was getting worried for a second that you were gonna pretend your Synthicide RPG was some kind of these "story games". At least I'm glad we settled that...

...and while at it, and I'm not talking setting here, which I'm sure is...a setting or something, but geeebus man, the game mechanics are the most obtuse, boring and unimaginative I've seen in a long time. The only non boring/been done part is the Resolve & Cynicism which is also so fucking codified into ideological bullshit that the only thing I could think of was the famous McClane quote: "fucking California!"...

...and then I realized that yes...it's just that.
More fucking ideological new age bullshit, still trying to "educate" people. Do you know what the fuck resolve or cynism even mean in your little dream world? And you codified the whole thing as a core game mechanic to which "resurrection" and "auto hit" are achieved, shoving around "good ways to play" and "bad ways to play" in a fucking ROLE playing game?

What...the...fuck...

Get out of fucking RPGs with your bullshit propaganda. Your fucking failed kickstarter should have clued you in.