Incline Perception, Charisma and their associated skills: sorting out the mess

[GentlemanCthulhu]

Str: Raw muscle power. Ability to deadlift and squat, and hit things hard.
Dex: Quickness and agility. Hand-eye-coordination. Nimble-ness
Int: Logic, reason, and mental power when dealing with logical problems, and learning logical subjects.
Wis: Ability to discern right and wrong (not always in a moral sense), not being duped, knowing the right way to doing something. Determines super-human potential.
Cha: Ability to persuade and intimidate people. Has nothing to do with beauty. Adolf Hitler was not beautiful.
Sex-appeal: Straight up how beautiful a person is. Beauty is subjective, so this translates to how high a person scores on masculinity (for men) and femininity (for women).

IMO ALL of these attributes should contribute to another attribute called "presence". Presence should determine the outcome of social interactions. It should also be a two-pronged skill check, where first a check will superficially check the value of the presence score to see if the char is fit to even be considered for the actual challenge, and the the corresponding attribute from the first 6 should be checked for the real thing.

Also, magic should not be only dependent on Int. It should be yet another combination of the six attributes, depending on the spell being cast. Are you casting a "lust/love" spell? Better have some Sex-appeal. Are you lifting a boulder and throwing it an enemy? Better have *some* strength. In this system magic will do what it is always supposed to do - which is to allow mere mortals to break out of their earthly limits - in an sensible, mechanically represented way. A wizard with a Str score of 6 will not be able to lift that giant boulder on their own, but with an appropriate telekinesis spell, now they can act as if their score is +10 higher than what it was at first, and they get the added benefit of the telekinesis aspect of the spell as well. IMO INT should not be that useful for a magician, since magic is not a logical problem. Instead, a combination of several other attributes should determine the mana pool (if the concept is included in the game) and overall magic potential. Which attributes determine magic potential depends on the setting of the game. For me, i believe a combination of dex and wis will do it, if we understand wisdom to be a sort of an indicator for the potential to achieve superhuman-ness (for example it makes sense for monks to have high wisdom as their abilities are in some sense "magical"). Dex is required since i assume casting spells require performing rituals or signs or what have you. If not, then another attribute can be substituted.

Lastly, we can add other attributes to the initial six such as constitution or perception. A common mistake in RPGs is confusing perception and intelligence. Perception should solely have to do with the senses, and the ability to notice things. You can absolutely be a blind genius.

 

[Wunderbar]

2. Which number should be checked and how? (pure stat check X pure skill check X some mixture of both)

Charisma stat can be used to define a hard cap on Speechcraft skill. If your CHA is lower than 2/10 (you're ugly and awkward), then you can't raise your Speechcraft higher than 20/100. Since Speechcraft is both INT and CHA skill, both stats can affect its hardcap - this way a non-charismatic but highly intelligent nerd can still utilize it to a certain extent.

Another way is skillpoint multiplier:
With CHA=5 you spend 1 skillpoint to raise your Speechcraft by 1.
With CHA=1 you spend 5 skillpoints to raise your Speechcraft by 1.
With CHA=10 you spend 1 skillpoint to raise your Speechcraft by 6.
This way non-charismatic person will have a hard time raising Speechcraft, while highly charismatic person will be able to max it out in just a couple of level-ups, thus making a good use of that skill early. Skill will be the only thing that's checked during dialogues.

And aside from that CHA can be checked a couple of times through the game (but the statcheck should sound like seduction rather than like persuasion).

Also, CHA can be used as a requirement for CHA-related perks (like Sex appeal, Child at heart, Confirmed bachelor, Ladykiller, etc).

3.1 Intimidation

Intimidation should be a secondary stat, derived from:
- your current equipment (scary looking spiked armor raises your Intimidation, fluffy mascot costume lowers it)
- your reputation (being a known asshole will raise your Intimidation, but if you're a "good guy" then you can hide your face with a mask to bypass reputation)
- your STR and your CHA.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Play Disco Elysium.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Like I said previously, a skill is something you can learn and improve. I don't really see intimidation as something you can do every day and then suddenly you can intimidate pretty much anyone. Plenty of former highschool bullies ended up meeting a "suicide by cop" scenario because they believed themselves inherently scary. It doesn't work like that.

They just failed the intimidation roll.

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

Eyestabber You said charisma should just boost social interactions at large.

How about making charisma simply lower the thresholds for social skills and general social non-stat checks?

So yeah, ultra-charismatic dude can pass the big dialogues easily, but non-charismatic but super-intelligent sperg would have to compensate it with sheer intelligence and ability of speech.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Cha: Ability to persuade and intimidate people.

I disagree with the intimidate part. Intimidation is such a broad concept that I don't think it should fall under any one stat but be reliant entirely upon the circumstance.
An uncharismatic person can intimidate you by putting a gun to your head. You can also be intimidated entirely without any threat of force(e.g., blackmail) or through indirect force(threatening to harm kidnapped family members)
An intelligent person is probably better at blackmail, but a charismatic intelligent person could probably extort more out of said person through intimidation, or get away with the entire thing being a bluff.

 

[Jason Liang]

In my RPG system, Attributes start at
0 - poor
1 - average
2 - above average
3 - superior
4 - heroic
5 - legendary
6 - human maximum

Attributes determine your skills. Skills are rated at 4 levels - normal, expert, mastery, legendary
At 0 - you cannot learn class skills associated with the attribute
1 - +1 personal skill (learn an attribute skill outside of your class skills), all class skills learned
2 - +1 skill tag (tagged skill is at +1 level)
3 - +1 skill tag
4 - can use any attribute skill at 50% normal effectiveness
5 - all attribute class and personal skills +1 level
6 - all attribute tagged skills +1 level

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

Cha: Ability to persuade and intimidate people.

I disagree with the intimidate part. Intimidation is such a broad concept that I don't think it should fall under any one stat but be reliant entirely upon the circumstance.
An uncharismatic person can intimidate you by putting a gun to your head. You can also be intimidated entirely without any threat of force(e.g., blackmail) or through indirect force(threatening to harm kidnapped family members)
An intelligent person is probably better at blackmail, but a charismatic intelligent person could probably extort more out of said person through intimidation, or get away with the entire thing being a bluff.

Well that's the problem with abstracting the complex reality into a videogame. At some point you have to make sacrifices.

 

[Eyestabber]

Eyestabber You said charisma should just boost social interactions at large.

How about making charisma simply lower the thresholds for social skills and general social non-stat checks?

So yeah, ultra-charismatic dude can pass the big dialogues easily, but non-charismatic but super-intelligent sperg would have to compensate it with sheer intelligence and ability of speech.

I dunno, maybe? I was just looking for the simplest solution that also makes sense. IMO RPG systems should strive for that perfect middle ground where mechanics are not too complicated while also making sense 90% of the time. Which is why I'm "pro-Charisma". In some situations having a rating that goes from "incel" to "chad" in your character's sheet might seem like a ridiculously simplistic way of seeing social interactions at large. But in MOST OTHER situations, that number works just fine, fam.

So, yeah, threshold, bonus, whatever. So long as we don't get another retarded game where CHA can be dumped AND the player gets to sweet talk everyone because REASONS, I'm ok.

 

[Jason Liang]

I think it makes most sense for CHA to affect max party size, recruiting party members, and leadership in battle abilities. And performance skills such as acting or music.

 

[DalekFlay]

New Vegas is once again the holy grail. Clear charisma checks, and other stat checks too but only when logical and relevant (explosives expert requires you to be one too or he won't give you dynamite, etc.). There is no better way to do it, period.

I just finished Greedfall which randomly had charisma checks and "intuition" checks, with no clear reason why either was used, and maxing both requiring you ignore every other thing in that tree (lockpicking, crafting, etc.) and reaching a very high level. Bullshit.