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Petition to remove the hitpoint health system from all future RPGs

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Tavernking, Nov 17, 2017.

  1. Tavernking Don't believe his lies Shitposter

    Tavernking
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    What are some good alternatives to hit points in combat?
     
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  2. Daemongar Arcane

    Daemongar
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    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire BattleTech
    Some of the best games out there have systems that, after 3 seconds without being hit, you just regenerate all your health. Little bit of a learning curve there, but once you get used to it, the cleric doesn't have to go 100% healing, he can take a damage spell or two.
     
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  3. PEACH Learned

    PEACH
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  4. undecaf Arcane Patron

    undecaf
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    Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
    Cyberpunk 2020 also had a wound system where (iirc) each subsequent point past armor and body ratings translated into a more severe wound (4 was already quite severe).

    Can’t remember the exact details, but it was quite lethal system.
     
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  5. Ruchy Educated

    Ruchy
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    Can I ask what you have against a hit-point system?
     
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  6. Tavernking Don't believe his lies Shitposter

    Tavernking
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    Nothing I'm just interested in alternatives.

    One idea I had was just three simple health states: Healthy, Injured, and Critically injured.
    If you lose a round of combat and fail to dodge or block the enemies attacks, there is a chance that you become injuerd or critically injured. Being in these states gives a negative % modifier to all future combat rolls. This is something I made up few seconds ago but is just an example of a non-HP health system.
     
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  7. Ismaul Arcane Patron

    Ismaul
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    Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
    The problem with being injuried giving a negative modifier to combat effectiveness has been know for a while in PnP. We call it the Death Spiral.

    Once you start going down, there's very little chances of coming back, because if you went down then it means the fight was already hard, and so with diminished effectiveness it most likely becomes harder if not impossible. The moment-to-moment experience of it is also pretty frustrating, as the actions you take that will most likely fail given the penalties (if the fight was hard, they were already failing some so this is just running you into the ground). Usually injury systems are combined with lasting injuries that can't be healed instantly in combat, since both mechanics exist to simulate reality, so you're pretty much boned until it ends. Gameplay after getting injured becomes about waiting for the foregone conclusion, twidling your thumbs while other characters in your party (if any) save the day, or reloading. I wouldn't recommend it in that form.
     
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  8. Nutria Savant

    Nutria
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    You can have wounds to certain body parts like in Rimworld or Unreal World. That doesn't get rid of hp entirely (each body part has its own hp) but it makes a hell of a lot more sense than games where you can still fight at 100% effectiveness when you're 99% dead.
     
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  9. Sjukob Prophet

    Sjukob
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    Deus ex has good health system that combines standart HP and injuries. It also doesn't suffer from the issue Ismaul described. I haven't played that many games, but it is the best implementation of health that I know, although it doesn't get much of the interesting play because enemies are not affected by it and Denton is immensely powerful for player to really care.
     
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  10. Iznaliu Arbiter

    Iznaliu
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    Will CP2077 incorporate this in some way, or is this too hard for CDPR's target audience?
     
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  11. lukaszek the determinator

    lukaszek
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    deterministic system > RNG
     
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  12. Ismaul Arcane Patron

    Ismaul
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    Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
    What a wonderful idea!

    Then, since we are sophisticated gamers, let us introduce the next step in the revolution!

    It's not realistic that any attack hurts the same, that a troll's attack hurts the same as a goblin's. So how do we fix it? Make some attacks deal a number of hits. Say a troll's attack deals 10 hits, and my warrior can take 40 hits. Call them hits points, HP for short.

    We did it guys!

    :happytrollboy:
     
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  13. Cael Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

    Cael
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    It is simple. The human body is a fragile thing, and even the wrong word is enough to cause massive disruptions to the body and lead to health problems. Therefore, the most realisitic and progressive system to replace the unrealistic and archaic HP system is that if you get hurt, like even a stubbed toe, you roll up a new character.


    ;)
     
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  14. buffalo bill Savant

    buffalo bill
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    Cataclysm DDA uses a damage-per-body-part system that works pretty well.
     
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  15. Neanderthal Arcane

    Neanderthal
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    Hit Points are as good as owt, but they're bloated in many games. In me old homebrew system o AD&D I only allowed a CON bonus at generation, an had injuries that'd permanently reduce HP on failure of a CON check (or multiple checks if it were really bad.) Also made sneak attacks an crits do max damage so a blade to throat or a brace o crossbow bolts were someat to worry about for even doughtiest dwarf. Also had instant death for massive attacks if a CON check failed.

    Me players soon learned that name o game were to strike from a significant advantage or avoid scrapping totally.
     
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  16. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
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    We can go for the realistic hp. You have one and a bunch of armoure! On loss of HP you eater die or loose a limb.
     
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  17. Neanderthal Arcane

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    Also the wound system of WFRP were fairly good, MERPS had a lot o good injury tables an all if I remember right.
     
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  18. Naveen Arcane Patron

    Naveen
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    HPs are fine, it's just that their characterization/understanding is usually wrong. They don't (or didn't) represent "health" or the amount of trauma your body can sustain or whatever.

    There are alternatives, but I think they make the game frustrating, especially video games where your character is going to have to kill hundreds of mooks and might lose x10 to x20 of his total HPs. You can have a static value of "life points" while your combat skill or fighting capability increases (which decreases the odds of being hit.) This is fine but, if the life-points pool is small, it may make the game frustrating or prone to one-hit-kill random events, which are not fun. The pool can be bigger, but then all fights become too long or your character's power becomes a function of equipment.

    You could implement this with HPs by adding negative hitpoints. Your usual HPs represent "healthy" (minor scraps, abrasions, lacerations and so on, but generally healthy,) the bottom 20-30% "injured" (a broken bone here and there, but nothing life-threatening) and -1 to -10 "critically injured" (your guts are spilling out)
     
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  19. Cael Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

    Cael
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    I once had a DM who decided that healing in DnD 3.5 is unrealistic (note that this is a game where throwing around a fireball and firing disintegrate rays is perfectly OK) and so basically removed it from the game. This is the edition where the HP bloat went through the roof (Red Dragons used to have about 100hp max, now have over 650, for example). Yeah. It didn't work very well.

    Many RPGs have a lot of status effects and treat HP like a resource. JRPGs, for example, usually have HPs going into the thousands, and status effects and removal are more or less an every combat round affair. Making things permanent or difficult to heal from/remove breaks a lot of systems.

    Therefore, the OP might want to specify a game system that he would like to remove HP from.
     
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  20. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
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    None.

    If the combat mechanics are 'number-based' (you roll to hit, roll to determine damage, your character abilities (stats and skills) are defined numerically, etc), then there is absolutely no reason not to go with hitpoints.
     
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  21. Beastro Arcane

    Beastro
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    There's the Robinson's Requiem system of injury and such. It does have a blood bar, but that is depleted from blood loss, something not all wounds produce.

    I'm not sure what the system in it is like under the hood. A lot of the games stats are kept vague or hidden to the player, so they just might be a HP system mechanically.

    Which is effectively what all reality revolves around for most living brings - success breeds success, failure breeds failure.

    In RPGs it would just breed even more rampant save scumming.

    The issue isn't that it's fragile, it's that it's very stripped down and contained only that which is needed for a human to live. About the closest thing that qualifies as useless padding or armor, is ones ass.

    The closest thing I can think of it is something like a satellite or other vehicle that is sent into space where space and weight are at such a premium that no area is wasted, everything fits together as tightly as possible.

    I have TMD/Neck problems and I've gotten a huge realization of all of this in the past year. We mostly think of complexity in the head as being all in the brain, but you take a look at diagram of the jaw/ear/upper neck area and there is a ton of shit going on there with nerves, arteries, muscles, all to service the neck, the jaw, the ear and to all work together to keep the massive heavy human head kept erect.

    It's for that reason that a treatment I'm working on getting can only be done to my jaw in front of my ear despite it also effecting tendons lower down along my jawline - there the problem is down there is what the pain doc called one of the "seven no go areas" of the body, places doctors will not inject because it's so crammed with shit they risk hitting missing the target tendon and damaging something else.
     
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  22. vota DC Learned

    vota DC
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    The adventures of Robin Hood made by Millenium had a fatigue system with a strenght system. An arrow guarantee a kill even on a uninjured soldier with 0% fatigue, only the dragon is immune. Strenght is a fixed value: women have lowest, then farmers, then monks, then Robin Hood, then Merchants (despite strenght they always flee) and Sheriff, then norman soldiers, then Little John, then the dragon. Fatigue is the same for all characters. The melee result is based on fatigue and strenght, after a fight or running around the map you lose some fatigue that you can restore by resting. If they are hanging you and Little John will run all the map to rescue you he will die because he will be too tired but after he dies if you attack the guard that killed him the soldier will die while a fresh soldier will kill a fresh Robin Hood. Sometimes Little John and norman soldier collapse even before the combat because fatigue.
     
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  23. kintake Learned

    kintake
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    Wat. I feel hp is perfectly fine if that's the alternative.
     
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  24. Tavernking Don't believe his lies Shitposter

    Tavernking
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    Here's my experimental RNG-based combat system.

    You have a combat skill of 70, your opponent has a combat skill of 20. Your chance of landing a strike on him is 70x20 /90 - 100 = 84.45%, otherwise he blocks. If you fail to block an attack from an enemy, there is a chance that you become injured or critically injured. Being in these states gives a negative % modifier to all future combat rolls, for example instead of a combat skill of 70 you'll temporarily have a combat skill of 56 (-20%), thus lowering your ability to fight.
     
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  25. Tavernking Don't believe his lies Shitposter

    Tavernking
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    A bonus of these mechanics, is that the player can always win a fight. If he has a combat skill of 1 and is verusing a dragon with a combat skill of 9000, there is still a chance he can win the fight.
     
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