KickStarter Phoenix Point - the new game from X-COM creator Julian Gollop

[luinthoron]

You can actually directly select the item by clicking on it - but the game is also built with controller support, hence why there's an option to cycle.

How important is it to have controller support on PC? 1.9

The bottom end of the table reveals that you clearly want the focus to be on a PC based, single player experience. It would definitely be wise of us to place our limited resources in this direction.

Yeah right good to see what you talk, an what you do.

Just because controller support was not one of the top requests doesn't mean they should not have it, there has been a surprising amount of interest in it both during the campaign and afterwards. I'll never understand why anyone would want to play a game like this with a controller myself, but that's no reason not to offer the option. Especially when it could help with later possible console releases, should there be money for it later. (And no, I don't see why anyone would want this on a console and not a PC either, but again, people have been asking about this as well.)

 

[Haba]

Just because controller support was not one of the top requests doesn't mean they should not have it

*sigh*

The innocent "enabling controller support" means butchering every UI and design element. You start designing inventories and management systems around controller limitations instead of making them effective for the superior keyboard and mouse combo.

 

[ArchAngel]

UI is the main issue, now I am afraid the Inventory is not going to be a proper UFO one but some simplified controller friendly one - HUGE

 

[PanteraNera]

Just because controller support was not one of the top requests doesn't mean they should not have it, there has been a surprising amount of interest in it both during the campaign and afterwards. I'll never understand why anyone would want to play a game like this with a controller myself, but that's no reason not to offer the option. Especially when it could help with later possible console releases, should there be money for it later. (And no, I don't see why anyone would want this on a console and not a PC either, but again, people have been asking about this as well.)

Sure, that's why I kid that they should not deliver on the geoscape part as well, otherwise it makes their target audiences heads explode, that's never good for sales.

Honestly, there is so many things that not add up, it's crazy to have faith in them.

Still I want to belief and hope that we get a good game in the end, but doubt it.

 

[UnstableVoltage]

Ok, but mouse over showing moving range will be important (or some other way to show it to players); we veterans will be irritated by needing to click and rotate all the time to see movement range, but casuals are going to miss move all the time and blame the game.

Funny that you should bring this up - as something that would annoy veterans (and I know how many people here want to desperately cling on to the OG X-Com UI and mechanics).... In OG X-Com, every weapon required a different number of TUs to fire. Even though you could reserve TUs for a shot, you would still have to have the correct weapon equipped for that to work. If you wanted to know how many TUs you'd need to use another weapon, you'd first have to equip it - spending TUs. If you wanted to throw a grenade, you would have to manually math-out how many TUs you had remaining for movement. I can't see any way how the current system in PP is less user-friendly than this.

*sigh*

The innocent "enabling controller support" means butchering every UI and design element. You start designing inventories and management systems around controller limitations instead of making them effective for the superior keyboard and mouse combo.

UI is the main issue, now I am afraid the Inventory is not going to be a proper UFO one but some simplified controller friendly one - HUGE

It's much easier to add controller support at this stage than trying to get it to work later. Whether we like it or not, a lot of people do play with a controller these days. With Steam boxes and so many more PCs occupying a space in people's living rooms, connected to TVs, we'd be insane not to provide a control method for those users. We also have to consider users with reduced motor functions, who often find a controller easier to use than M/K

 

[luinthoron]

Just because controller support was not one of the top requests doesn't mean they should not have it

*sigh*

The innocent "enabling controller support" means butchering every UI and design element. You start designing inventories and management systems around controller limitations instead of making them effective for the superior keyboard and mouse combo.

It remains to be seen how far they're going to go with this, but I'd still hope they design these systems mainly with the keyboard and mouse in mind before making sure they can be used with controllers as well. There's no need to oversimplify things just because people want to use controllers - nothing stops a controller from moving a cursor around (either just the mouse cursor or selecting the next inventory slot) similarly to a mouse and in a turn based game it won't matter if the controller does it a bit more slowly either. The only specific example of a controller-friendly UI element so far is the item wheel, and that works just as well, if not better, with keyboard and mouse.

 

[Jaedar]

It's much easier to add controller support at this stage than trying to get it to work later. Whether we like it or not, a lot of people do play with a controller these days. With Steam boxes and so many more PCs occupying a space in people's living rooms, connected to TVs, we'd be insane not to provide a control method for those users. We also have to consider users with reduced motor functions, who often find a controller easier to use than M/K

And yet, its One of the features the polled want the least. Perhaps supporting two completely different input methods is not the best way to spend your money?

In practice though, it will just mean the controls will never be great for either scheme, because you won't actually make two different schemes, just one bastardized.

Please prove me wrong.

 

[ArchAngel]

Ok, but mouse over showing moving range will be important (or some other way to show it to players); we veterans will be irritated by needing to click and rotate all the time to see movement range, but casuals are going to miss move all the time and blame the game.

Funny that you should bring this up - as something that would annoy veterans (and I know how many people here want to desperately cling on to the OG X-Com UI and mechanics).... In OG X-Com, every weapon required a different number of TUs to fire. Even though you could reserve TUs for a shot, you would still have to have the correct weapon equipped for that to work. If you wanted to know how many TUs you'd need to use another weapon, you'd first have to equip it - spending TUs. If you wanted to throw a grenade, you would have to manually math-out how many TUs you had remaining for movement. I can't see any way how the current system in PP is less user-friendly than this.

First, rarely anyone used more than one weapon so all you needed to do is one click and see TU costs for all types of attack. Second, I agree that UFO didn't have a perfect UI. Are you really going to try to defend console first UI of PP by giving us examples of a UI from 25 years ago?

Why don't you instead look at Xenonauts that lets you put grenades into certain spots in inventory and then displays items there directly in the UI and it shows how much TU it will cost to throw it by just mousing over...

*sigh*
The innocent "enabling controller support" means butchering every UI and design element. You start designing inventories and management systems around controller limitations instead of making them effective for the superior keyboard and mouse combo.

UI is the main issue, now I am afraid the Inventory is not going to be a proper UFO one but some simplified controller friendly one - HUGE

It's much easier to add controller support at this stage than trying to get it to work later. Whether we like it or not, a lot of people do play with a controller these days. With Steam boxes and so many more PCs occupying a space in people's living rooms, connected to TVs, we'd be insane not to provide a control method for those users. We also have to consider users with reduced motor functions, who often find a controller easier to use than M/K

Adding control support is OK for everyone as long as your first UI that is shown to the public was not obviously made for controllers first and K&M second. On PC the K&M community is bigger, don't piss off your main audience because of some invalids and console retards.

EDIT: Fixed spelling mistakes and other errors.

 

[Mustawd]

It's much easier to add controller support at this stage than trying to get it to work later. Whether we like it or not, a lot of people do play with a controller these days.

I call bullshit on this. What the hell happened to making a PC centric game?

If you start trying screw around with the UI to mak it controller friendly then you’re seriously going to piss off a lot of us PC users. Myself included.

I’d really think twice about this if I were you. If I start seeing radial shit UI in this game I’ll honestly just say forget it and move on to other games that respect my intelligence. And I don’t think I’m alone on this.

 

[Shog-goth]

Whether we like it or not, a lot of people do play with a controller these days.

Not the people interested in this game, I bet. And definitely not to play a complex one.

With Steam boxes and so many more PCs occupying a space in people's living rooms, connected to TVs, we'd be insane not to provide a control method for those users.

I tell you what I think It's insane: trying in every way to piss off people like me that had faith in Julian, backed PP and convinced other to do the same. We clearly told you what we want.

 

[UnstableVoltage]

Seems we can't please everyone.

I'm done here. I've done my best to be honest and keep everyone informed. I appreciate that there are going to be decisions that not everyone agrees with. At the end of the day, we are in business as a studio, and we do have to consider what is going to be commercially successful. The game is a long way from finished, and many things can change between now and when it's released. However, I'm not going to sit here and argue with you guys about what you think is wrong/right. It's all personal opinion, and stuff that neither you or I have any control over anyway. I don't want to be getting into fights about this stuff - that's not my job. We've been gathering feedback from a number of sources. (I actually compiled a massive spreadsheet for Julian just a few days ago, including feedback from Facebook, YouTube, forums, Reddit - and even here. Pretty much all of the feedback on this thread (good and bad) got added to the sheet). Ultimately, Julian and the design team will base their design decisions on a number of factors which may not always be apparent or obvious to those outside of the development circle.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Seems we can't please everyone.

and yet you are still trying to implement console controls

 

[Shog-goth]

Seems we can't please everyone.

Why did you have to please everyone? You asked for money to a very specific audience and your first obligation is towards It, not mainstream public. This was supposed to be a (sort of) niche game, not nunuXCOM.

 

[Mustawd]

What a fucking joke. Once again a developer uses the naivete and enthusiasm of PC users to raise enough funds for their game, and thenn promptly dumps us for some imaginary console market.

 

[ArchAngel]

I think it's important to remember that trying to please everyone will end up pleasing no one. Firaxis themselves learned this; XCOM 2 was PC-only for a long while, and the most important stuff (mods, LW2) are still PC-only.

There is no free lunch; Accessibility is a noble but costly pursuit. Simplified inputs > simplified interface > simplified information > simplified mechanics. It begins with catering to people playing at a distance, reducing the amount of detail and increasing the size of text, reducing the scope of menus, and soon everything important is obscured away, or discarded entirely. You can't really play Crusader Kings 2 with a controller, and it really wouldn't work from a couch.

We have seen this movie before countless times. We know how it ends. Snapshot Games, for better or worse, inherited both the goodwill that comes from the first few X-COM games, and the bad memories of what came after, and the the series of disappointments from the would-be revivors of Jagged Alliance, and the frustration with Firaxis approach to design.

Funny part is that Xcom 2 did not support controllers at release (I don't know if PC version support them now), so it seems PP will beat Xcom 2 at it own terrible game...

 

[Hoaxmetal]

However, I'm not going to sit here and argue with you guys about what you think is wrong/right.

Yeah, god forbid you'd use a forum to have a discussion.

 

[Jaedar]

I'm done here.

Don't feel bad. RPG Codex is a high level dungeon that... (I forget the rest of the quote)

You are not the first community manager to break against Codexias fair shores. You can tell your boss you made a worthy attempt.

Assuming you're still reading this, know you're still welcome to return. Assuming you can handle the heat.

 

[thesheeep]

Whether we like it or not, a lot of people do play with a controller these days.

Not the people interested in this game, I bet. And definitely not to play a complex one.

This is the main problem.

t the end of the day, we are in business as a studio, and we do have to consider what is going to be commercially successful.

No. At the end of the day, you have to consider what the people funding the game were promised, what they were specifically asked for and had no interest in being implemented.
A quick glance at the Fig campaign tells me this: GOG, Linux, Mac, Steam, Windows
Not PS4, not XBOX.
And this is a strategy game which is supposedly somewhat complex.

Who gives a shit if some fool prefers to play a strategy game on PC with a controller?
The people doing that will not even reach 10%, I can guarantee you that. And for those few, the other 90% have to have a somewhat inferior UI...

Nobody (well, okay, a few hotheads...) would complain if the game gets post-release support for controllers. It worked out rather well for XCOM 2, judging from the comments.
But XCOM 2 is supposedly less complex. A game like the original UFO would be downright impossible to control with a controller - or at least incredibly annoying.
A game that is from the get-go designed for controller support will always have an inferior and (for kb&m) unnecessarily hard to navigate UI. As has been proven by every single game, ever.

But if you are so hell-bent on implementing something that (as proven by feedback) nobody considers important, why not make two interfaces?
Yes, that is more work, but if you want to retain an optimal interface, unavoidable. And for the larger part, I'm sure the interfaces would be identical.

 

[Jimmious]

We sent another one away didn't we?

 

[Berekän]

It's not even like there was anything too inflammatory said his way, strategy gaming is one of the most civil subforums here.

 

[Shog-goth]

It's not even like there was anything too inflammatory said his way

The truth burns...

 

[PanteraNera]

It's much easier to add controller support at this stage than trying to get it to work later. Whether we like it or not, a lot of people do play with a controller these days. With Steam boxes and so many more PCs occupying a space in people's living rooms, connected to TVs, we'd be insane not to provide a control method for those users. We also have to consider users with reduced motor functions, who often find a controller easier to use than M/K

If it's easier or not is of none interest here, as Mr. Gollop himself (as I quoted) said it would be unwise. Why the fuck are you being unwise?
And than back it up with some bullshit about accessibility.
Man up and take some responsibility for once.

Seems we can't please everyone.

The fucking issue is, besides not keeping word, that you are trying to please everyone.

I'm done here.

I don't want to be getting into fights about this stuff - that's not my job.

Pathetic.
You should consult MLMarkland but he is busy with his righteous hunt of the pedophile film industry.

At the end of the day, we are in business as a studio, and we do have to consider what is going to be commercially successful.

And you get a lot of feedback, from a lot of different sources, that people are losing confidence in you. Gonna do something about it?

(I actually compiled a massive spreadsheet for Julian just a few days ago, including feedback from Facebook, YouTube, forums, Reddit - and even here. Pretty much all of the feedback on this thread (good and bad) got added to the sheet)

I would give you a pad, if it wasn't your fucking job your being paid for.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Another thread that perfectly explains why we can't, and won't, have nice things anymore.

 

[Jimmious]

It's not even like there was anything too inflammatory said his way, strategy gaming is one of the most civil subforums here.

That's very true. I really believe though that it's hard for developers to answer to criticism because honestly they are rarely the ones making the decisions.. Trying to argue about something you can't change and you have to support is very hard

 

[PanteraNera]

Another thread that perfectly explains why we can't, and won't, have nice things anymore.

And it is not getting better.

People lose more and more faith in kickstarter because of things like what happens here. I am glad that I have not baked PP. Can you withdraw your pledge?

It seems like the minute they get your money they basically forget that the people that funded the project are their publisher, with expectations.
I really didn't get why UnstableVoltage was not able to bring at least once a month an good dev-blog. Just look at Overhype and what they did with Battle Brothers, every friday a dev-blog with a lot if content, and they were just three people.

What is a publisher doing if the game heads into the wrong direction? Give feedback. And if it's ignored, it gets canceled easy as that.

I really liked what MLMarkland proposed with AN:RPG, I didn't cared for the game/theme itself but the way he wanted to handle crowdfunding. If there is a hope to restore faith into crowdfunding than it would be a approach like this.

Snapshoot never seemed to be happy or constructive about feedback critic, haven't seen a single positive response to any on their discord, and I am lurking there since months. It quiet the contrary, for example "New Jerchio" has changed a lot into a whole different direction art-wise from what they had in the fig campaign, if people complaint, it's just like "deal with it".