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KickStarter Knights of the Chalice 2 Thread - Augury of Chaos

Doctor Sbaitso

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Looking forward to being able to create a blender with 2-3 warriors dual wielding bastard swords with great cleave, vorpal sword, trips or somesuch, with throwables, whips or reach weapons as secondaries. I've always enjoyed playing the positioning game for maximal AoA goodness.
 

Dickie

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I do wonder if the fighter gets enough feats. Will 31 bonus feats be sufficient?

Fighter.png
 

Damned Registrations

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I do wonder if the fighter gets enough feats. Will 31 bonus feats be sufficient?

Fighter.png
I know you're joking, but this is legit what fighters need to compete with casters. At level 5 a wizard is dishing out like 30d6 in the opening round, a fighter is... not. And it gets WORSE at higher levels. Fighters better have all the lame stat boosting feats in addition to combat tricks if they want to compete.
 

Dickie

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I do wonder if the fighter gets enough feats. Will 31 bonus feats be sufficient?

Fighter.png
I know you're joking, but this is legit what fighters need to compete with casters. At level 5 a wizard is dishing out like 30d6 in the opening round, a fighter is... not. And it gets WORSE at higher levels. Fighters better have all the lame stat boosting feats in addition to combat tricks if they want to compete.
I was looking at the feats implemented in the game, and the 38 total feats will still leave me not getting everything I want, so that's neat. It's also interesting how the bonus attack roll and damage feats apply to all weapons for the fighter, so you don't have to get locked into one weapon. Being able to just use the best weapons you find will at least be more fun.

How is a wizard doing 30d6 damage in one round at level 5? Not doubting, just curious.
 

Damned Registrations

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Assuming 6 targets (seems the most fair assumption vs a 6 man party), round one fireball, 5d6 on each. You could get way more of course, or do other things, but regardless, a fighter isn't going to be anywhere close. He needs to make up for it by being an absolute wall with crazy high saves, mobility, AC and combat tricks. Even that wouldn't make up for it in PnP but at least in a crpg where utility is non existent they only have to compete in combat.
 

Doctor Sbaitso

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Grappling and tripping are quite the equalizers. You do have to get within range for that but there are ways using throwables, bows or spells for status effects. Also, Fireballing everything often isn't the best approach. I remember having to center AOE spells out of the field in order to hit 1-2 enemies in KoTC. Pierre is masterful at encounter design so I am confident there will be balance and situational advantages for various builds depending on encounter design.

Having 2 warriors in KoTC was not ideal but I enjoyed the tactical challenge and when you shred numerous enemies in 1 round using melee feats and abilities it feels gooood.
 

Dickie

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Assuming 6 targets (seems the most fair assumption vs a 6 man party), round one fireball, 5d6 on each. You could get way more of course, or do other things, but regardless, a fighter isn't going to be anywhere close. He needs to make up for it by being an absolute wall with crazy high saves, mobility, AC and combat tricks. Even that wouldn't make up for it in PnP but at least in a crpg where utility is non existent they only have to compete in combat.
Hmm... I'm kinda curious how much damage a level 5 fighter can do, in terms of d6s, with no buffs because the wizard is busy throwing fireballs.

First contender is a half-salamander fighter (+1d6 fire damage to all attacks) with Two-Weapon Fighting and Superior Two-Weapon Fighting (no penalty for non-light weapons), wielding two +1 katanas (Japanese steel, obviously). Let's give him Damage Focus (+2 dmg for all weapon attacks), 18 strength, and Intensified Energy (1d8 instead of 1d6 fire damage). That's two attacks 1d10 + 1d8 + 4 (str) + 2 (focus) + 1 (enhancement) and 1d10 + 1d8 + 2 (half-str) + 2 (focus) + 1 (enhancement) = 32 average damage. That's roughly 9d6, but only for one target.

Since the wizard can hypothetically hit 6 targets with a fireball, let's suppose two of them are standing close enough together to get caught up in a whirlwind by a half-giant (uses large weapons) fighter. He's obviously gonna use a +1 Waraxe (2d8 dmg, -1 atk), but he'll use the large version that does 3d8 damage. He has 20 strength, Damage Focus (+2 dmg), Whirlwind Attack, Improved Whirlwind Attack (+2 dmg on whirlwind), and Fast Whirlwind Attack (whirlwind is standard action instead of full-round). He'll attack two guys, each at 3d8 + 1 (enhancement) + 7 (1.5x str) + 2 (focus) + 2 (whirlwind) = 25.5 average damage per attack or 51 damage total. That's between 14d6 and 15d6.

When you factor in the feats that allow you to sunder (-1 AC for whole battle, cumulative), feint (remove dex AC bonus for attacks from everybody for one round), trip, or disarm (weapons and shields temporarily disabled) as swift actions, I think the fighter could do OK in this game.

Of course, a level 5 wizard could be using Spell Shaping (allies in area aren't affected) and Fire Magic (cast fire spells at +1 caster level) and really be doing 36d6 with no chance of hitting allies.

A psionicist could blow them all out of the water with Energy Cone (50' cone of fire, cold, sonic, or electricity; 5d6+5 dmg) with Energy Sculpting (no longer hit allies), Improved Energy Cone (65' cone instead of 50'), and Energy Specialization (+2 dmg). That'd be 5d6+7 to those six guys for 30d6+42 damage which averages the same as 42d6. Also, assuming 20 int for wizard and psion, the wizard can cast 2 fireballs a day at level 5, and the psionicist can cast energy cone 7 times a day.

http://www.heroicfantasygames.com/FWE/Pages/FWE_Title.htm
 
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anvi

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Wiz can only do 1 or 2 fireballs at low levels though, and then he is a squishy dead weight until he gets 8 hours rest. A Fighter can fight constantly without a break. And again, a Fighter can take a beating too. Surely you can't want all classes and all roles to be balanced based on damage output?
 

Dickie

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Wiz can only do 1 or 2 fireballs at low levels though, and then he is a squishy dead weight until he gets 8 hours rest. A Fighter can fight constantly without a break. And again, a Fighter can take a beating too. Surely you can't want all classes and all roles to be balanced based on damage output?
I was kinda wondering about this. I'm trying to remember a PC game where you couldn't just leave a dungeon to go rest or just sleep on the floor to get your fireballs back. I know there were a few spots in the first Knights of the Chalice where you kinda got trapped until you could find a campfire. That's not to mention there are wands and scrolls to get infinite charges of whatever. Knights of the Chalice 2 will require some diamonds to recharge wands. Maybe those diamonds will be scarce. Also, there are apparently wands up to level 9.

Recharging a wand requires the expenditure of one or two magic diamonds, depending on the level of the spell associated with the wand. For a spell of level 1, you need a single Air Diamond. For a spell of level 2, you need a single Water Diamond. For a spell of level 3, you need a single Earth Diamond. For a spell of level 4, you need a single Fire Diamond. For a spell of level 5, you need a single Star Diamond. For a spell of level 6, you need one Star Diamond and one Air Diamond. For a spell of level 7, you need one Star Diamond and one Water Diamond. For a spell of level 8, you need one Star Diamond and one Earth Diamond. For a spell of level 9, you need one Star Diamond and one Fire Diamond.
 

J1M

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If you are going for silly circumstances why not a fighter with a reach weapon and great cleave surrounded by low hp extra small creatures? (Extra small = 4 creatures per 5 foot square.)

So that would be [damage] * [4 creatures per square] * [24 squares of reach]
 

Dickie

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
If you are going for silly circumstances why not a fighter with a reach weapon and great cleave surrounded by low hp extra small creatures? (Extra small = 4 creatures per 5 foot square.)

So that would be [damage] * [4 creatures per square] * [24 squares of reach]
What silly circumstances do you mean? Being able to hit two enemies with whirlwind, being able to hit one guy twice with a full attack action, or fighting six enemies at once?
 

anvi

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Wiz can only do 1 or 2 fireballs at low levels though, and then he is a squishy dead weight until he gets 8 hours rest. A Fighter can fight constantly without a break. And again, a Fighter can take a beating too. Surely you can't want all classes and all roles to be balanced based on damage output?
I'm trying to remember a PC game where you couldn't just leave a dungeon to go rest or just sleep on the floor to get your fireballs back.
I played some that limit resting in various ways. Although I don't usually like it, I mostly find it more of a chore and pain in the ass than a tactical challenge or something. The examples that pop into mind, EOTB2 had a no rest level where nightmares haunt your sleep and prevent your rest. MOTB made it so resting makes you start going feral and if you rest too much you become consumed by the spirits or something. Pathfinder makes it so you can rest indoors but it uses your rations, whereas outdoors your party can hunt while resting to not use supplies and rest for free. But going outside is not a problem so it is kinda meaningless. PoE had no hunting so every rest used your limited supplies. And some other games like BG, TOEE, etc, resting gives you a high chance of getting attacked while you sleep. So you can maybe rest, but most likely you will end up fighting for your life with an already tired party.

As with almost every gameplay mechanic, people will tire of me saying this, but I gotta say EQ was the best at this by far. Everything you did had a tactical element, and it is especially true of using mana and resting to recover it.
 

Darth Canoli

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Why the hell are you arguing for ?

In KotC, Warriors were powerhouses but needed some healing support or were tanking powerful enemies while doing a fair amount of damage while mages and clerics would use the right spells.

Mages alone would just die, i don't think anyone beat the game with 4 mages, let alone tackling the most difficult optional fights.

As far as i'm concerned, Pierre found the perfect balance.

I expect the same from KotC 2 and you should too.

When he finally replace the tokens, with some marketing, he'll probably get filthy rich.
 

Doctor Sbaitso

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Cleave + great cleave + DW and appropriate feats + positioning = mage blender. Let's not forget encounter design will not have groups engage on an open field, unless they are on an open field.
 

Dickie

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I'm spending way too much time reading through all the classes and feats. Looking forward to this one.
Yeah, it's like an addiction for me now. I like that almost every class has gotten a bit of a spin from the SRD. The martial classes getting some kind of new thing almost every level will make them a bit more interesting, I think.

What did you think of the bard? It's probably the most drastically changed class, and it certainly seems unique. Anything that can buff the DCs of my wizard's spells is a win in my book.

The monk is probably the most underwhelming class to me. Medium BAB is such a hard sell for a class with no spells. I wanted to try a mantis monk until I found out her extra hands don't do monk unarmed damage. At least stunning fist is not wasted on a miss and it's usable a number of times per encounter instead of per day.
 

Doctor Sbaitso

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I found unarmed melee the most gimped thing in KoTC. Feats and abilities but no cestas or other weapons, which meant losing out on modifiers from enchanted gear in your hands, plus no status effects or bonuses. Hopefully an unarmed monk/wrestler becomes viable in KoTC2.
 

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In KotC, Warriors were powerhouses but needed some healing support or were tanking powerful enemies while doing a fair amount of damage while mages and clerics would use the right spells.

Mages alone would just die, i don't think anyone beat the game with 4 mages, let alone tackling the most difficult optional fights.
I did 2 wiz 2 cleric myself and it was faceroll all the way through after hitting level 5. The only fights that were kinda annoying were the balor because I went there early and he ignores pretty much all magic except harm and disintegrate, and the end fight, which became trivial after winning initiative roll and using dominate monster on a vampire or something. 4 wizards would be annoying but totally viable. The same cannot be said of 4 warriors. Sure once in a while a mage would die, but generally to an enemy spell or archer anyways, and it's not a big deal to lose only part of your firepower when you've got overkill stuff like horrid wilting vs 20+ enemies late game, and encounter design fucking over melee more often than not by leaving your fighter on the wrong side of your party during an ambush, trying to wade through entagled ground or cross a chasm or river or some shit.
 

Darth Canoli

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I completed with four wizards, don't recall it being that difficult.

Right, how many wands did you craft ?

I did 2 wiz 2 cleric myself and it was faceroll all the way through after hitting level 5.

Me too but that's not the same thing and that's beside my point, there's only 3 classes in KotC but they're all useful and powerful.
 

VentilatorOfDoom

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The monk is probably the most underwhelming class to me. Medium BAB is such a hard sell for a class with no spells. I wanted to try a mantis monk until I found out her extra hands don't do monk unarmed damage. At least stunning fist is not wasted on a miss and it's usable a number of times per encounter instead of per day.
Didn't Grunker tell him what to do with the monk? I seem to remember discussions about it on HFG forums. Or did he not listen? Full BAB and a bunch of spell like abilities like PF would be nice.
 

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