KickStarter Knights of the Chalice 2 Thread - Augury of Chaos

[Thonius]

I'll pay a lot of money for a game with BB style and mechanics from KOTC.

 

[Grunker]

I like tokens much more than KotC's graphics, I only have a problem with the UI thus far.

 

[The Glitterdust Golem]

Shit dude, I'd throw art at this guy for zero cost. My scribblings are at least at an eight year old's level.
Pierre buddy, hit me up. If the words 'zero cost' scare you, I'll take 99% royalties.

 

[Darth Roxor]

tbh if there's so much whining about the visuals even on the codex, i'm predicting the kickstarter will be a disaster

 

[The Glitterdust Golem]

Will there be a Codex fundraiser?

 

[Mortmal]

it will be a disaster , VentilatorOfDoom , maybe if you still have access to his private forum you could ahem "diplomaticaly" voice our concerns to him. I lost my username and password long ago, when i bought KOTC else i would do.

 

[mondblut]

tbh if there's so much whining about the visuals even on the codex, i'm predicting the kickstarter will be a disaster

That's what developers deserve for ruining much-anticipated games.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

I'm not sure that logic is consistent though, animations ? Does the pixel PC need any ? On the other hand, looks like he's on the road to compete with AAA games with spells effects (animation ?).

We don't need those spells effects enhancements.
Isn't PC / monsters art more important ?

What?
In KotC monsters, PCs and NPCs had walking and fighting animations. A single spell like Summon Monster 1-9 which lets you choose different creatures to summon on 9 different spell levels requires the pixelart/anis for dozens of creatures. That's just one spell.
What does that have to do with AAA games? Can you produce Darksun style pixelart - for free? If so - seems pretty easy, right? - why don't you offer him a hand there?

I think you guys underestimate the amount of work it takes to create all those graphical assets. And that he himself isn't exactly the most talented artist should have become obvious by now, so expecting that he somehow does it all himself seems not very realistic.
In KotC1 he actually paid someone to do the pixelart. But apparently his monetary funds weren't unlimited and word is they still aren't. Of course he would prefer to have ToEE level gfx (another thing he said) but... how? Short of ripping the actual ToEE assets?
Someone should ask TimCain if he minds whether someone reuses all the ToEE gfx.

Vault Dweller as someone with some rudimentary experience with this stuff, seeing a game like KotC2, the DnD bestiary, animal companions, summons, all those spells and psionics, the required animations - even if simplistic - all equipment icons , all areas and so on and so forth...
let's say on different quality levels, mid-90ies (Darksun), AoD and ToEE quality level ... how much effort? How many man hours by a professional artist?

 

[Mortmal]

No we dont underestimate the cost of this, there's already many bundles for tabletop. https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/product.php?id=IPFGMGTP09OE those for example, he just have to strike a deal with them and pay license fee.That's completely reasonable as a stretch goal.

 

[Dorateen]

Will there be a Codex fundraiser?

Upon completion of the successful kickstarter campaign.

 

[Mortmal]

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

No we dont underestimate the cost of this, there's already many bundles for tabletop. https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/product.php?id=IPFGMGTP09OE those for example, he just have to strike a deal with them and pay license fee.That's completely reasonable as a stretch goal.

You're talking about assets for those board/token gfx? Well, sure he could make that a stretch goal, why not.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'm not sure that logic is consistent though, animations ? Does the pixel PC need any ? On the other hand, looks like he's on the road to compete with AAA games with spells effects (animation ?).

We don't need those spells effects enhancements.
Isn't PC / monsters art more important ?

What?
In KotC monsters, PCs and NPCs had walking and fighting animations. A single spell like Summon Monster 1-9 which lets you choose different creatures to summon on 9 different spell levels requires the pixelart/anis for dozens of creatures. That's just one spell.
What does that have to do with AAA games? Can you produce Darksun style pixelart - for free? If so - seems pretty easy, right? - why don't you offer him a hand there?

I think you guys underestimate the amount of work it takes to create all those graphical assets. And that he himself isn't exactly the most talented artist should have become obvious by now, so expecting that he somehow does it all himself seems not very realistic.
In KotC1 he actually paid someone to do the pixelart. But apparently his monetary funds weren't unlimited and word is they still aren't. Of course he would prefer to have ToEE level gfx (another thing he said) but... how? Short of ripping the actual ToEE assets?
Someone should ask TimCain if he minds whether someone reuses all the ToEE gfx.

Vault Dweller as someone with some rudimentary experience with this stuff, seeing a game like KotC2, the DnD bestiary, animal companions, summons, all those spells and psionics, the required animations - even if simplistic - all equipment icons , all areas and so on and so forth...
let's say on different quality levels, mid-90ies (Darksun), AoD and ToEE quality level ... how much effort? How many man hours by a professional artist?

It's an insane amount of work. We're talking 2-3 years of work and 2-3 artists, or 1 artist working for 4-5 years. His only option is to cut someone in (i.e. an artist working for a share of the revenues) and go with Battle Brothers style graphics. He will skip the animations which is a huge bonus and focus on things that matter more.

Going with the tokens will be a mistake though. His game will sell no more than 10% of its full potential. Visuals aren't everything but they do matter. Eschalon had charming graphics, a huge improvement on Spiderweb-style graphics. Battle Brothers has a superb art style, full of details and atmosphere. While it's not easy to recreate, it's not something completely out of reach either.

 

[Mortmal]

NO! the token choice is not the problem , the problem is the art style chosen for them. It looks like it's done by some kid he locked and abused in his basement
I want something looking rather like that :

 

[Gord]

Personally I would prefer something like top-down miniatures (assuming it's top-down he wants), which can imo easily look better than tokens and work without animations, too.
OTOH, even his tokens (and the art/style/design in general) can be improved tremendously if done by someone with more talent. His talents clearly lie elsewhere (there's a reason why the term programmer art came to be).

Of course arts may appear to be only a minor detail when compared to the other more important parts of the game (mechanics, encounter design, etc.), but they are quite important if you want to attract people to your game in the first place.

 

[Grimlorn]

The tokens didn't really bother me at first. Kind of reminded me of Hero's Quest from when I was a kid. But looking at the battlefield with 20 enemies on it. It looks like too much clutter or something. I'm not even sure what those large green tokens are suppose to represent. It also looks like there are even more enemies outlined in red on the screen. Not sure what those are. No HP next to them, but they definitely look like mobs. So he does appear to have some normal looking mobs mixed in with the tokens. Wtf

This guy may have talent for mechanics and encounter design, but he's just so retarded when it comes to business and being smart. I don't think he'll change the token system even if he somehow got 100k on a kickstarter. He'd still refuse to hire an artist and change it. That's just the way he is.

 

[Bastardchops]

Yeah the art look like horseshit. It's a stepdown from the 1st.

 

[Mustawd]

He hired some random kid to do the token art.

And when I say “kid” you need to understand that the level of artistic quality seems to be basic beginner level painting. I wouldn’t be surprised if everything was traced over from another source, and then painted over (poorly).

 

[Morkar Left]

It's not choosing a tokens style. It's just that the art here makes it hard to actually recognize what's gong on. Very, very strange when a token style should actually provide you with a overview what's going on...

Templar Battleforce has a rather simplistic top down view but it looks good and you can clearly see what's what.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I'm not even sure what those large green tokens are suppose to represent.

Gelatinous cubes.

 

[Mortmal]

Those gelatinous cube are at least passable, the worse are the characters portraits.

 

[Viata]

I really hate the lack of consistency in those tokens, holy shit.

 

[Darth Canoli]

I'll pay a lot of money for a game with BB style and mechanics from KOTC.

I only played 1 hour or so but it looks like they have it easy as there isn't a lot of variety.
Still, everything Mortmal linked looks so much better than the early KotC 2 previews.

I really hate the lack of consistency in those tokens, holy shit.

That's the other problem, i don't even know what the big red, purple and blue circles are for but it's certainly not helping him, what a terrible screenshoot to share.

By the way, i wonder how hard it'd have been to make the gelatinous cubes squares instead of those weird ice cubes in a circle ...

Well, i really hope he'll have something better to show for his kickstarter and that he'll add some graphic alternatives as a stretch goal.

Someone should send him a link to this discussion, after all, we all want the same thing, his success.

Also, if animations are a problem, why bother ?
As long as spells are animated (KotC level is far enough) and buff / debuff easy to spot, i think we're good, the token idea isn't bad but non-animated sprites would do the trick just the same.

 

[Valky]

Muh graffix. The tokens are all that is needed, use your imagination.

 

[Thonius]

At this point I'll take ascii over ugly tokens and ugly shitty interface. You gotta respect people/buyers and at least produce something simple and somewhat not vomit inducing.