Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

I did not say this.

Each to their own I suppose but I feel that these types of design choices are symptomatic for the missunderstanding of what kind of combat system they are making which hurts the game. That people aren't enjoying it by large seems like an uncontroversial claim, it wasn't something that was praised in the original game and many people stopped playing in disgust for that reason. That there are many in this thread are happy with the combat is unsurprising since many of the detractors have self-ejected from following PoE as players.

Anyway, you obviously think I'm exaggerating and I think you are underplaying the issues with the design, direction, reasoning and their consequences. I don't see us coming to an understanding here so let's agree to disagree.

 

So apparently the game is shit because rogues can use smoke bombs in combat....

 

I think it's something that's not simply on/off, fighters not having any active abilities would not suddenly make PoE much better designed.

It's a process and a scale, and this is all funny to me now because very recently I argued for same thing as you are doing now. I do agree that flooding a system with options and options above all can cloud and diminish it but PoE is nowhere close to that, classes have different niches. I think also Sawyer is aiming for making classes distinct and separate.

So there can be an issue if in a class-based system and a RTWP regarding what you are talking about but PoE is far off from that both de facto and de jure.

 

http://steamspy.com/app/560130

 

Dumpsterfire is a total flop.

 

It used to be 100000-200000, damn. Is Dumpsterfire a bigger flop than T:ToN?

 

Josh said he will not be full time on PoE2 after releasing a few patches, does that mean he will not be manning the DLCs?

Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler

 

Imagine being the producer and community manager of such release:

50k-100k people, that's probably the worst flop we have seen since this kickstarter debacle has began. It's on the level of banner saga 2.

 

Did he work full time on the White March add-on?

 

Difficulty will be fixed, for one thing. For another, the enemies can have the modded spells added to their progression tables and be made to use them.

You are right, that the increased probability to hit doesn't directly translate to higher damage, because the conditions during combat encounters are too different each time it plays out. This is why I keep saying that there is no such thing as "DPS" in PoE.

I also believe that the thrill of hoping you fighter's next swing will score a hit is much better suited to RtwP than the "tactical" choice of using knockdown for your next attack, and hoping for it to hit. Some people were calling RtwP in PoE "pause with real time". For the thrill to work better, you should spend relatively more time unpaused. I guess that's how our gamblers' brains work.

I would prefer to have much lower maintenance non-casters and a better flow of combat where I can admire spell effects and animations, and not have to cast more than 2-3 spells per encounter, than spend 2/3 of my time during a combat in paused mode. I think the IE games had the right balance there and that their lack of active abilities on non-casters was not by chance. Less can be more when it comes to fun derived from micromanagement.

Yeah, but more clicking doesn't mean the character feels more awesome, especially if you are clicking the same per-encounter. It's the other way around, if you get use an ability only occasionally, that's when it feels awesome.

 

Steamspy doesn't work anymore after the Steam privacy change.

That its now said 50k - 200k should just make that even more glaringly obvious. Battletech also just dropped like 40%.

Just check his twitter he talks about how off the algorithms now are and how hes working on it.

 

Amen.
Could be clearer I say. Seeing Resistance/Immunity to Resolve affliction doesn't mean anything instinctively. It's only when you read the cyclopedia and get to know the system that you start reading both as Immune to fear.

The only thing I find weak is how inspirations supposedly grant Immunity despite of the rank. Should depend on it.
Also, all the little bugs in combat.

 

I think it is good argument.

BG fighters "work" because they are both lethal and you don't have graze system so when you actually hit you "hit" and it feels good.

In PoE fighters don't do a lot of damage relatively to hp of enemy so their use if stretched over time and since they don't do a lot of damage + you have graze system it means most of their hits feel "weak"

Which is the reason why they need active skills, because without them they would be super boring.

Both systems have their own failings and upswings. Though i wouldn't put one over another. They are just different systems with different focus.

Due to that PoE1 fighters were boring but thanks to improved abilities and much more active abilities fighters in PoE2 are interesting to play.

 

Neither in PoE1 nor Deadfire from what I have seen so for do fighters need active abilities or are weak. Literally the arguments given here are objectively and observably false.

I can understand at a level when someone says fighters shouldn't be as strong as wizards because magic but when people start talking as if IE fighters are not only better designed but also stronger then it starts getting ridiculous.

 

Well, Banner saga has a much smaller studio AND we will still be getting Banner Saga 3, so I'd consider that a much bigger success.

What are the chances of PoE3: The Dumpster That Dumps? I'd say around nil.

IE games fighter don't even have per rest abilities out side of kits. Only thing that comes to mind is Maximized Attacks in IWD and that's not even in base DnD, but was shoehorned in by JES because he knew fighters felt meh.

 

In BG/IWD fighters/warrior group characters get multiple attacks per round and significantly better thac0 than the other groups. This means both faster recovery (reaching 1.2sec in higher levels, to keep on par with 5 attacks per round in BG/IWD) AND higher accuracy.

In PoE and deadfire as they stand now, fighters have neither of those two advantages. They tend to be slower in teir recovery times and their accuracy is marginally better than that of other classes.

 

Weak in comparison to their use in IE games.
In IE games fighter lvl1 needs to hit once mage to kill him or almost kill him.
In PoE HP pool is so large that even squishy mage can survive with good fighter for a good few seconds.

Which is a reason they need active abilities to do something more than just hit things.

As i said PoE2 design of fighters thanks to waaay better abilities is good. PoE1 was where it hurt.

 

Technically true, but so far I'd say that the system is wasted on a) the RTWP clusterfuck, b) the illegible interface.

a) Because spells and effects fly around everywhere to the degree that in just a few seconds everyone is affected by 3 different things. It's just so insanely hard to keep up with all that shit, who used what where when and how oh wait nevermind i have three fireballs casting now as well better address that.

b) Because I can't tell at a glance who is affected by what. The icons next to portraits are microscopic (at least on my 5:4 screen ), the spell effects all look just about the same, character models don't exhibit anything that would clearly identify the positive/negative effects on them, and you can't hover over the statuses on enemies in the stat preview window and check wtf they mean (unless I'm missing something again).

c) I would also say that the effects are a little wasted on the easy-ish difficulty, since you don't really have to care about them, but I am kinda-sorta glad about it, because if I did need to keep tabs on them all the time, I can't imagine how much obnoxious micro-management that would add. And I say this as someone who plays multiplayer RTSes often.

So with all the three above in mind, imo the tl;dr is that the system (and indeed a lot of the mechanical complexity found in poe2) is wasted simply on the fact that this game isn't turn-based, when it very obviously should be.

 

No, fighters have armoured grace and get an very strong accuracy self-buff right from start. They also have modals and stances that further improve this. They are best consistent weapon damage dealers.

Let's be honest, are we really discussing this? I think there is merit to arguing the golden ratio of options and I even respect both opinions about IE that fighters shouldn't be as strong as Wizards and fighters shouldn't have any active abilities (I disagree though for several reasons), but the assertions about how PoE fighters have bunch of active abilities that you spam, that you can't build an auto-attacker with no active abilities or that fighters are not good at that are all observably false.

 

The game is in need of a lot of number tuning, I hope they are aware of these problems. I think this game needs to bloatmaxx. They need to increase HP across the board, reduce player damage a bit.

Also yes TB is better than RTwP, but IE-spiritual successors so.

 

How does this happen? Correcting for inaccurate previous numbers? Refunds?

 

Depends if it is profitable. Remember that it was also partially funded by FIG platform
So it sells for 50$ + there is 20$ season pass and i have no doubt a lot of people will buy it.
Secondly RPGs always have VERY LONG legs so even in 10 years it will be still providing profit to Obsidian.

Even assuming it will sell only 300k at launch price + 100k season pass + 2mln from FIG:

15mln + 2mln + 2mln = 19mln without any steam cut, taxes or anything else. Even after taxes it should be enough to cover for development of game.

And that is ignoring any sales above that + console release like PoE1 had.

 

I think it comes down to managing the amount of micro and paused time that a player will be expected to use. In my case at least, I'd prefer a more "popamole RTwP" to the "click a button - something awesome has to happen" alternative.

THAT's what I'm talking about!! Why do I need fake choices - "click this button to up your accuracy" - when I have to click it in every encounter. If this is something I'll be clicking in every encounter, I would rather add the bonus to the fighter inherently. Someone would say - "but you have a choice to pick disciplined strikes during char creation or not!" - gtfo. Some choice that.

I'm not saying take all active abilities away from non-caster classes, that would be insane, and an insane amount of work to re-balance. I would definitely cut some of them though.

If I'm going to start most combat encounters in the game with 3-4 active abilities available and 6-7 fighterpower points (because you spend most of the game in the midrange levels), then that's just too much to the point that I don't have to think economically about when to use my powers, especially when my fighterpower points are replenished after combat ends. It also weighs on the combat flow because of the long pausing, and thus worsens my experience of the game.

 

I just realized that it probably has to do with the GDPR induced privacy changes launched a few days ago.

 

Yeah, probably just changes to the sampling logic they are using. I'm on the verge of paying $3 for patron access, just to see if I'll get more accurate numbers.