Eternity Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Pre-Release Thread [BETA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Uh, that is actually saying just that it was too sparse quest wise. Sparse is an indicator of density. Not enough quests for the map size = too sparse.

 

Then you are ignorant as fuck. Haven't you been following the development? It can potentially turn out better or worse but same but bigger?

 

Yeah, ok, I was just thinking of it more as "it has too few quests".

You mean the exact same scenario as with PoE1 during development? Don't give in to hype and/or pre-release snippets.

 

Yeah, that. The list of things we already know are different is so long that if you think it's going to be "same," then your definition of "same" must be really broad.

Off the top of my head:

• FONV style faction mechanics (not just scripted gates like in P1)
• Numerous mechanical changes to character-building and combat (health system, everything per encounter, empower system, dual-classing with "power source," etc. etc.)
• World is open rather than plot-gated into areas
• Intra-party dynamics -- relationships between PC and NPCs, and among NPCs, including the possibility of companions walking out on you
• A big city that's designed Athkatla style (districts on a bigger map, with encounters happening when moving between them) rather than Baldur's Gate style (physically contiguous districts)
• Boat as stronghold
• Sidekicks
• Day/night cycle and dynamic weather with NPC schedules
• Much improved NPC AI
• Stealing, pickpocketing
• Completely revamped stealth mechanics

So yeah. Could turn out a disaster (although I would be surprised, not to mention disappointed), could turn out to be a classic for the ages (although I'd be surprised about that too), or it could turn out to be somewhere between the two. From where I'm at it looks to be shaping up well; if they're going into beta soonish we'll know more.

 

Bigger - almost certainly.

But what I'm excited about is: better factions (not like this was particularly hard to do, but they are promising F:NV-style factions, i.e. - central to the main plot, with plenty of RP opportunities for various motivations), companions that are more closely tied to the plot (again - just like F:NV), actual skills (more than a dozen of 'em), better combat clarity and pace, greater character building (kits and multiclassing), and this time they didn't go overboard with stretchgoal systems that will feel disjointed from the rest of the game ( :cough: Caed Nua :cough: ), but kept them relevant and realistic.

All signs point to them realizing what the biggest problems of PoE1 were, and trying to improve on its foundations. Without going into full-on fanboy mode, everything they have shown us thus far has been major incline compared to PoE1 (and IE-like games in general), so I think we can safely assume that, yes, it's going to be better than the first one.

 

No, I mean the different design approach, much like NV, not to mention obvious features(like the ship) that'll make Deadfire play a lot different than Pillars 1.

 

Yeah, all of those things smack me more of a PoE1 remake rather than anything else, starting again from level 1 and the completely disconnected story reinforce this (these aren't necessarily bad things). The biggest change, and probably the most important one, is the mechanics revamp, it has the potential to change how the combat plays altogether, which isn't a bad thing, but it could also turn out to change only the frequency of resting. The potential is there, sure, just like it was there for PoE1, but it depends on how it's executed, all of it may turn out to be trivial window dressing. If it's as mediocre as PoE it would be the same in my book. Maybe all of this is a bit too broad a definition of "the same", but that's irrelevant from my perspective.

 

It has more (and more concrete) changes than BG2 has to BG1 - do you characterize BG2 as a sequel to BG1, or more of an "updated" BG1?

 

It's a direct continuation. Yeah, the "you were kidnapped in the middle of the night by unknown assailants" is a bit of an asspull, but it still continues the plot thread from 1. It can turn out that Eothas is a side-thing that you have to do, but other stuff being more important and more concerned with your Watcher-ness. BG2 also starts at the same experience level you were in BG1, no reboots or take-backs, which gives you more tools on top of the tools you already had (not replace them). So, yeah, I'd classify BG2 as a continuation/sequel in the most complete sense. It's not trying to do what BG1 did, but better, like PoE2 is. Better factions! Better open-world! Better thieving in general! Better stronghold! Better Big City! Better party banter/dynamics! Better AI! etc. etc. This isn't necessarily bad, and remaking PoE1 isn't a bad idea, but like I said, it can end up the same, just with replaced content.

 

Well, yeah, but so does this. Even more strongly, as Eothas was an important part of PoE1's backstory, and Irenicus is a brand new villain in BG2.

I reckon it'll probably take on F:NV's form in this - Eothas/the chip is just a McGuffin excuse to get the ball rolling and thrust you into all those inter-warring factions.

They did take away (almost) all of your gear at the start of BG2, which is one of the most important things about char. building in the IE games.

But yes, I also would have preferred if PoE2 continued at level 12 (or 16, if you have both expansions), but with the new system they're going for in the sequel - guess that would have been very, very difficult to do.

I get where you're coming from with this now.

On the other hand, I still don't get what you mean with this - it's a completely different setting, with radically different systems - how can it turn out like a simple PoE1 remake?

 

And of course, as always, you assume these changes are good.
Stop buying into pre-release hype. Not to mention we already saw in one of the gameplay vids the exact same issue the PoE1 pathfinding AI had, which leads me to believe pathfinding is still going to be the same old garbage shit.
I also think I remember seeing some vid where it started raining but the NPCs didn't give a single fuck and just stayed in the rain outside.

 

The plot thread is not Irenicus, it's the Bhaalspawn thing. Eothas can be disregarded for a while, too.

The problem is that it couldn't. And Josh knows this. BG1 was restrained and disciplined, it didn't throw Mindflayers (Vithrack), dragons, archmages and what have you at the player and the very conservative cap of 161k xp made it possible for BG2 to go somewhere with the same system. 16th level is already too high for its own game, let alone starting at that for a sequel.

Why do you think a remake should be simple? It's obviously not, they are trying to "improve" pretty much everything from the ground up, and even redo the whole combat system, a more complete remake if you will. A different setting is pretty much required at this point, but BG2 also had a different setting without it being a remake of BG1. It sounds like I'm being contradictory, it's both a remake and something completely different, but it's actually not, I'm just having trouble articulating it. It's a remake because it's completely different at the most fundamental levels and trying to be better at the others. It's PoE1, but with presumably better design decisions. Those presumably better decisions can actually be worse or about the same.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it can be a bad thing.

 

"you're a hater if you don't immediately buy into pre release hype and love everything obsidian does GET OUT OF HERE RIGHT NOW YOU BIG BULLY WAAAAH GO BUY TYRANNY TO APOLOGIZE IMMEDIATELY!!!"
t. Infinitron

 

Most of them - definitely.

The ones like: reduced party size, simplified health system, per encounter - well, we'll see. They may turn out great, they may turn out crap.

Pre-alpha. Not saying it will be improved, just that it's probably something that will be tackled later in development.

Again - pre-alpha. You're really stretching to find anything worthwhile to bitch about here, dude.

Yes, almost every sequel tries to be better than the first one. This sounds more like something that they wanted to (or could have attempted to) do with PoE1, had they the funds, time and the courage to make a more unique IE-like game.

And yes, like I already said, some of those changes (especially to the combat), can potentially turn out to be worse. But everything else sounds like a real step up from PoE1.

 

Ah yes, the "It's just a beta dude lol" argument.

I guess we'll have to wait and see then.

 

Every new game is shit unless proven otherwise. Devs can say whatever the fuck they want about the supposed features and then only halfass or outright not implement them.

 

Ok, let's go down the list to see what these "definitely better" things are -

Not going to comment on this because surprise, surprise I can't force myself to play New Vegas. Maybe it's better, but I wouldn't know.

I think everyone agrees that these can backfire quite hard, nothing more to comment.

This is just different, rather than straight up better. BG1 also has plot-gated areas (Cloakwood, Baldur's Gate, return to Candlekeep, the last areas), but it just has more open maps from the get-go.

It depends on the execution, if they are still as annoying as in PoE1 then this won't be better, it will be worse. Not to mention that it's not "better", just expanded. Potentially worse if they interrupt the flow too much with their pointless yapping.

Pretty much everything is going to be better than Defiance Bay, that's not an achievement. But ok, from what we've seen Neketaka is indeed better.

No idea how anyone can think this is somehow better. It's in the different category.

Just companions with less content, which is actually a plus in my book, but I'm sure it's not in many others'.

This is so trivial it hurts. It can potentially be more annoying, not better.

If this ends up true, then yes, it's better.

Sure, more options is better.

From all the better things, only Neketaka and better AI are truly big things, potentially NV factions depending on execution, everything else is "eh". You can live without them.

 

Aha, thanks for acknowledging most everything is different, could be better(sure seems and sounds like that way IMO) or worse but not the same.

 

I already explained what I meant by "the same", no need to go over it again.

 

Mate, honestly now, do you want the game to be shit? Because you're getting an awful lot of pleasure from pointing out trivialities like these.

From all of us who have played F:NV - it's better, trust us.

Agreed.

Having the option to explore on your own, and stumble upon quests/creatures you are not yet ready for, instead of waiting for the plot to magically open those locations for you - is definitely better.

True, but having them more closely tied to the plot, factions and events in the story (something that was sorely missing from PoE1) - is a better way to handle companions.

Yes, Defiance Bay is, for the most part, a very bland city, so this is pretty much a given.

Because it's a hook to tie the stronghold to the game in a, both plot and systems wise, much more interesting and useful way.

If (most) companions turn out to be dull/annoying, this could be the way to go. Nevertheless, it's a nice addition.

If they actually do something with it (as in - make it relevant to quests), it could be interesting. Otherwise, it'll just be useless fluff.

Yup.

I'd argue this is possibly the most important change when compared to PoE1.

I'd add kits, multiclassing, and skills to this list as well. But that's just me

 

No, what gave you that impression?
I want Obsidian to go back to being the absolute best RPG developer out there. I really want PoE2 to be good. I want it to be the GOAT. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna shut my eyes and think "everything is fine, i'm going to take everything that's said by the developers as hard fact and fully implemented and perfectly designed and it's gonna be awesome".
Maybe I'm extra pessimistic because I've been replaying VtMB and I'm reminded at every experience point I gain that no matter what happens, Obsidian will most likely never reach that level of quality ever again. And that, above all, saddens me. I don't want Obsidian to fail, I don't want their games to be shit. But when I see "Chris Avellone leaves Obsidian", "Eric Fenstermaker leaves Obsidian", "Writers behind Tyranny fiasco on PoE2", what the hell do you want me to believe?

 

First off, I wasn't arguing that the changes are good. I was arguing that Lacrymas is mistaken if he believes that it will be "the same, but bigger." These changes are substantial, and if your definition of "the same" is broad enough to ignore them, then it's fairly close to meaningless IMO. For the record, I like some of these changes, as they have been presented, and I don't like some others. On balance I do believe they're an improvement though. Also I didn't even mention pathfinding -- I did mention NPC AI which they have discussed on multiple occasions, e.g. civilians who run away screaming if you try to mug them rather than going hostile and attempting to kill you.

Lacrymas you're also shifting the goalposts -- you asserted that P2 is likely to be "the same, but bigger," and I pointed out a big range of things that are different, i.e. I'm pretty sure you're wrong about that.

(in re intra-party shenanigans)

No, different. It's stuff that wasn't in P1, and will be in P2. If it's at all as they present, it will make the gameplay experience materially different.

(in re day/night cycles and NPC schedules)

They said these will allow more and different ways to resolve quests. That's not trivial, and again, different.

Uh, where? From where I'm at you just shifted from arguing that it's gonna be "same, but bigger" to "not necessarily better." I'll happily concede that much -- there's no way to know whether the changes will add up to something better or not at this point.

Personally I have confidence in Josh's abilities; the more relaxed schedule and budget and the happy sounds that have been coming from the team in the updates also bode well. I will be disappointed if it doesn't turn out much better than P1, mechanical quibbles aside (not just bigger) -- but that's most certainly a possibility.

 

Dude.

I love VtM:B as much as the next guy and in some ways it really is unsurpassed -- notably atmosphere and that particular flavour of writing -- but it is really weak in other areas. If that's your gold standard of Obsidian game quality, your glasses are tinted so rose they're purple.

 

You can do this in PoE1, too, though. You can stumble across some unbeatable encounters by exploring, like the Alpine Dragon and the drake in the Whatever Falls. I'm pretty sure there are more, but it's more a problem with PoE's overall design rather than how open its world is. This is exacerbated by TWM.

I lumped this in with the mechanics changes. The kits and multiclassing might make it more chaotic rather than better, especially with the new combat system. It sounds better on paper, because of D&D, but that's all.

In this context, all the other things you mentioned aren't different, they are either expanded, about the same or trivial. I think you might have too narrow of a definition of "the same".